Pilot Archive
Thread: Proposal: Shield Revamp The SDI Initiative
Duskrider
Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:10 pm
#16
They're /called/ deflectors, sure.. but that's not what they do. The post above that mentioned the books is a good start to an explanation, but even if we ignore the books entirely we have a good example of how the shields work, the movies.
For example, in the Death Star attack scene in ANH, we don't see energy bolts being bounced from the ships, but we DO see several rebel ships take only 2-3 hits before being destroyed. the current system reflects what happened in the scene pretty accurately. When Wedge takes a hit to his engines they're damaged and he had to pull from the fight, there wasn't a period where the TIEs had to drain his shields for a few minutes, THEN punch through armor, THEN finally damage the components (heck we have it lucky with our armor too, as it somehow manages to protect an /external/ component like an engine). The same is true for Biggs' demise, his ship takes a couple hits and it was all but vaporized instantly.
One reason this happened is because these are small fighter craft and they just can't physically hold and power a large shield system. the shields are designed to mitigate minor amounts of damage because the speed and maneuverability help to make up for lesser protection. The Falcon, on the other hand, was seen taking multiple hits from multiple fighter craft in both ESB and ROTJ without suffering instant oblivion. Being a larger ship, with a more powerful reactor and more physical space to house a bigger shield system, it can take more abuse before the shields would be rendered useless.
While the current shielding system works well in PvE is just a matter of game mechanics, making it easier to take on multiple enemies and therefore enhance the fun, the system is fairly realistic in a PvP setting where your skills are supposed to get you through the fight, not your equipment.
For example, in the Death Star attack scene in ANH, we don't see energy bolts being bounced from the ships, but we DO see several rebel ships take only 2-3 hits before being destroyed. the current system reflects what happened in the scene pretty accurately. When Wedge takes a hit to his engines they're damaged and he had to pull from the fight, there wasn't a period where the TIEs had to drain his shields for a few minutes, THEN punch through armor, THEN finally damage the components (heck we have it lucky with our armor too, as it somehow manages to protect an /external/ component like an engine). The same is true for Biggs' demise, his ship takes a couple hits and it was all but vaporized instantly.
One reason this happened is because these are small fighter craft and they just can't physically hold and power a large shield system. the shields are designed to mitigate minor amounts of damage because the speed and maneuverability help to make up for lesser protection. The Falcon, on the other hand, was seen taking multiple hits from multiple fighter craft in both ESB and ROTJ without suffering instant oblivion. Being a larger ship, with a more powerful reactor and more physical space to house a bigger shield system, it can take more abuse before the shields would be rendered useless.
While the current shielding system works well in PvE is just a matter of game mechanics, making it easier to take on multiple enemies and therefore enhance the fun, the system is fairly realistic in a PvP setting where your skills are supposed to get you through the fight, not your equipment.
Message Edited by Duskrider on 02-16-2005 10:12 PM
1st_Viduus
Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:32 pm
#17
Was waiting for the movies to come up...
So let's talk about the movies... Like when Luke is "...diverting all shield power to the forward deflectors..."
Then from behind he takes THREE HITS... and suffers only minor damage, which his astromech droid repairs.
Oh what are all those flashes?
Could it be the bolts from the death star's turrets being deflected?
The movies are so rife with contradiction they are a poor source at best when it comes to using it for game balance.
Further, the only thing we have to really go on is George Lucas' own words, and he called them "deflector shields".
Maybe they don't quite work that way, but this is not Real Life, WWII, Modern Day WarCraft, Stealth Technology, or even The Movies.
This is a game that a great many people are not enjoying an aspect of because it is an un-enjoyable experience.
Proven by the focus thread above, and the number of views and replies posted therein, as well as the empty skies.
Proven by the focus thread above, and the number of views and replies posted therein, as well as the empty skies.
Coran_Sienar
Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:01 am
#18
Very interesting. It certainly would make things better on MP ships. But I can't help wondering if the dramatically increased survivability of all ships with the deflector shield system in place would require that all of the PvE be rebalanced, dramatically. The NPC ships fire at a rate that is far slower than any player with much less damage, to boot.
Eaca
Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:05 am
#19
Coran_Sienar wrote:
Very interesting. It certainly would make things better on MP ships. But I can't help wondering if the dramatically increased survivability of all ships with the deflector shield system in place would require that all of the PvE be rebalanced, dramatically. The NPC ships fire at a rate that is far slower than any player with much less damage, to boot.
That's why I said this is PvP only, that it doesn't apply to PvE damage, since it's calculated different anyway.
Coran_Sienar
Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:34 am
#20
It's just that I doubt there will be two different damage calculation engines implemented by the Devs. It's much easier to just have one and tweak to fit because of the fact that simultaneous PvP and PvE combat is always a possibility when flying overt.
Eaca
Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:53 am
#21
A 25% PvP damage reduction already exists, obviously there is 2 seperate cacluations done. Add to that the fact that NPC's don't shoot, then wait for the shot to travel, then see if they hit, instead use a "dice roll" based on your current movement trajectories and chassis type. Heavier chassis have a higher chance to be hit by NPC's. Ever hear rebels complain that aggressors never miss? Not sure how true that is, but I know in beta there was a time when YT's NEVER missed, they had forgotten part of the calculation it seems, and posted that they fixed it, so the YT would again miss. For player shots, the trajectory is calculated along a path, if a target is found along that path damage is rolled, and we already know it's able to be differentiated between PvP and PvE targets, with the current 25% reduction.
Coran_Sienar
Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:58 am
#22
Okay, I stand corrected. 
(btw, Aggressors do miss. However, they are insanely accurate compared to any other ship. If the Devs activated the turrets on the Y-Wings and added NPC Krayts, it'd be interesting.)
MonsofoLexius
Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:51 am
#23
Great work Eaca! Used my nifty little Corro special on this and floated it for everone.
Would really take care of a few things and beef up the big boys (FOB ships).
Ill post more in reply later on (so many posts soo little time lol)
Duskrider
Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:11 am
#24
So let's talk about the movies... Like when Luke is "...diverting all shield power to the forward deflectors..."
Then from behind he takes THREE HITS... and suffers only minor damage, which his astromech droid repairs.
Ok, we'll talk. The hits that were repairable by Artoo can be explained several ways, but the simplest in terms of /any/ kind of fighter combat is to ask how good if a 'hit' was this? you're correct that the movies aren't a rock solid example, but we're led to believe that these just weren't direct hits to any vital portion of the ship. A loose explanation yes, but I still maintain that shields are accurate the way they are.
If so many people are unhappy with the system as it stands, there's a far better cause than shields, and a far better fix than making everyone's shields tougher. Ask yourself this: Should I really be able to cut my speed to all but zero, do a 180 degree turn and hit full speed again in order to maintain contact with a target? It's the maneuverability of the system that's unreal, and that's what really makes PvP too simple. IF you actually had to outfly your opponent, actually maneuver yourself into position by flying instead of just rotating like a turret, then PvP would take a far more interesting turn, since it would rely more on your actual skill in operating a craft than just brute force weapons and invincible shields.
Notice I didn't mention RL physics, that's just bringing too much into an arena that can ignore it without penalty, so please no doctoral theses on why Inertia makes the whole darn system impossible to begin with.
Then from behind he takes THREE HITS... and suffers only minor damage, which his astromech droid repairs.
Ok, we'll talk. The hits that were repairable by Artoo can be explained several ways, but the simplest in terms of /any/ kind of fighter combat is to ask how good if a 'hit' was this? you're correct that the movies aren't a rock solid example, but we're led to believe that these just weren't direct hits to any vital portion of the ship. A loose explanation yes, but I still maintain that shields are accurate the way they are.
If so many people are unhappy with the system as it stands, there's a far better cause than shields, and a far better fix than making everyone's shields tougher. Ask yourself this: Should I really be able to cut my speed to all but zero, do a 180 degree turn and hit full speed again in order to maintain contact with a target? It's the maneuverability of the system that's unreal, and that's what really makes PvP too simple. IF you actually had to outfly your opponent, actually maneuver yourself into position by flying instead of just rotating like a turret, then PvP would take a far more interesting turn, since it would rely more on your actual skill in operating a craft than just brute force weapons and invincible shields.
Notice I didn't mention RL physics, that's just bringing too much into an arena that can ignore it without penalty, so please no doctoral theses on why Inertia makes the whole darn system impossible to begin with.
PhatMadness
Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:50 am
#26
Personally, Im unconcerned with continuity and devotion to the dogma of the movies. Star Wars is after all a fantasy world and the details of who said what or what character must be at what location is really not important in terms of game mechanics. I just think this system works for the game. It makes space PvP playable, and *gasp* possibly enjoyable? Whether you call it a deflector screen or a kinetic shield, itll work.