Pilot Archive
Thread: Focus Thread: PvP Damage
Coran_Sienar
Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:29 am
#14
I use the X-Wing to PvP. Fighter choice is a matter of taste more than anything else. (I'm not counting B-Wings, Tie Bombers since they're bombers.)
quadpers0n
Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:38 am
#15
coran is right, i use an oppressor and an interceptor to pvp and a kihraz for freelancer. it's totally a mater of taste what ship you use now considering turn speed is just as much determined by engine as it is by chassis and ability to roll while pitching or yawing (which speeds up your turn X2).
5 stars about the no decay post. last night i decided to duel a friend and i died numerous times. it was fun, but for my fun i was rewarded with decaying all my components by 1/2. not that big of a deal considering i only use overcharge 3 programs anyway, but still annoying. find another way to givie shipwrights renewable business folks.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 02-15-2005 08:39 AM
Zanholo
Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:39 am
#16
Iused to think pvp dmg was too high, but then along came captoshieldshunt which dramatically increases survivability in an attack.
WO3 should be fixed, but I will shed some tears when it is.
MUST have bigger shields and armor for MP ships.
Incentives to pvp should be: space combat prestige, faction points, pvp ranking system and maybe even take a few k creds from the person who died and award them to their killer?
ajag
Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:46 am
#17
Don't even bring up taking credits from other players in PvP because if that gets implemented, those people who were thinking of trying PvP or are not good at it, will never do it again or at least give it a shot 
True, the ship used is up to the pilot's choice, but what this game needs is diversity. We have so many ways to make this game different for everyone but we do not take advantage of it. If we leave it that every ship can take and receive the same amount of damage, then the only difference between ships will be the looks and thats it. It would be like having a Ferrari and a 18-wheeler truck perform exactly the same way, when we know that in reality, a Ferrari is way faster and handles much better tan the truck, but god forbid that the Truck gets a hold of the Ferrari with it's bumper because if that happens, you will only have confetti as the left overs of that Ferrari.
1st_Viduus
Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:51 am
#18
quadpers0n wrote:
There's been soooo many threads on this before, do we really need to rehash everything in another thread? I mean I think you could probably get a consensus on the issue by reading other threads over rather than force us to write the same arguements out for the 10th time.
1. one shot PVP is a myth. please, someone explain to me how you can fly any ship under 40k mass with a gun that will one shot a player with adequate shields.
i pvp with a lvl 5 gun because it is light. it does not take 1 shot to kill a player it takes 4-5. It took me 14 shots 2 nights ago to bring down a decimator. If PVP damage is reduced farther it will take me 28 shots to bring down that decimator. Fair? Sure, ok, maybe.
Now look at it from another perspective. It would take me 5-10 shots to bring down a player oppressor. With my alt in that oppressor, and my twin 4.7k damage .35 refire guns, I would still be able to take down any player in one shot. So now it takes an average player with mediocre equipment 8-10 or even more, shots to bring me down, while I have no penalty whatsoever and the true crux of the issue, being one shotted while in MP ships would not even be solved.
Right now, the way things are set up, I can effectively PVP in any ship save a MP ship. Think I'm wrong? I've killed players in everything from a kihraz to an oppressor to an agressor. Reduce damage further and everyone will be flying the overmassed Awing and heavy fighters.
The real solution is to fix the rediculously broken weapon overcharge 3. Players like me are out there with guns doing 7k damage spamming shots with no penalties. Fix that bug first and then decide what needs to be done withPVP. When you have only 10 shots a capacitor you aren't going to be throwing out a stream of death and it's going to be much more difficult.
Introduce massive shields into the game for MP ships and leave PVP damage alone. Any further tweaking to the system will make it exactly like the ground game out there and doom us to that dynamic until the developers get enough free time to provide space with it's own combat revamp. DON'T push us down that road folks. We don't need space to become an equipment war with nobody flying MP ships and nobody flying light ships either. We don't want space PVP to become something where you NEED 4 months of loot behind you to be effective. And believe me, this is coming from someone who has some of the best loot on my server. I'm not the best pilot out there but I can and will land a shot or two. The way things work now anyone can PVP and anyone can be effective with any ship save the MP ones. Fix that first. Fix bugs first, then start talking about what needs to be changed. Not the other way around.
If needs be there are plenty of other good ideas out there to make PVP 2-3 shots without a damage reduction. excess damage per shot against a shield discarded is one such idea. we can come up with others if need be.
Just remember though, with WCO3 i'm doing around 10k+ per shot. reduce that by 75% and i'm still killing everyone with one shot. what will we clamor for next a 95% reduction? nerfed guns?I pvp plenty now. So do many other people. People saying they don't PVP because of one shot kills are the minority. People don't PVP cause there's no incentive to do so, another thing that needs to be fixed FIRST.
I beg to differ on the "Myth" statement.
For an A-wing facing an Oppressor it may be a myth to the A-Wing, but it's not for the opporessor.
As a matter of fact, all my PvP kills were 1-shot, those kills include A-Wing, X-Wing, B-Wing, Rihkxyrk, and FireSpray, to the tune of 27.
My3 PvP deaths were 1-shot in the advanced, and 2shot in the Oppressor ---- from an A-Wing,eachtime.
If you expect me to take the difference seriously between 1 and 2 shot kills when refire rate averages 1/3 of a second, you're going to be disappointed.
For an A-wing facing an Oppressor it may be a myth to the A-Wing, but it's not for the opporessor.
As a matter of fact, all my PvP kills were 1-shot, those kills include A-Wing, X-Wing, B-Wing, Rihkxyrk, and FireSpray, to the tune of 27.
My3 PvP deaths were 1-shot in the advanced, and 2shot in the Oppressor ---- from an A-Wing,eachtime.
If you expect me to take the difference seriously between 1 and 2 shot kills when refire rate averages 1/3 of a second, you're going to be disappointed.
However I strongly agree that WO3 is a HUGE culprit here; boosting weapon damage by 30% and then reducing it by 25% is truly pointless.
Also, if you choose to use a level 5 weapon when you could manage to use larger, that is your choice, and PvP not being one-shot for you is not an accurate generalization.
I also agree that "Damage Reduction" is not the way to go. Damage Balancing needs to occur.
IF we had been given a Class system, as I suggested at JtL's launch, we would not be at this impasse today, where some feel that PvP is fine, others feel it is game-breaking, and most fall somewhere in between, but are dissatisfied. Else it wouldn't be "an issue" in this forum.
I can agree thought that there is little incentive to PvP; other than FP and part farming, there's little reason to even go to the lag-ridden DS.
IF we had been given a Class system, as I suggested at JtL's launch, we would not be at this impasse today, where some feel that PvP is fine, others feel it is game-breaking, and most fall somewhere in between, but are dissatisfied. Else it wouldn't be "an issue" in this forum.
I can agree thought that there is little incentive to PvP; other than FP and part farming, there's little reason to even go to the lag-ridden DS.
We certainly don't want it to be like the ground game, where the person with the MindFireDOT wins (in 10minutes).
We don't want it to be game-breaking either.
My ideas for balancing out PvP typically start out as a small and simple thought and ends up being compounded into a system-sweeping change lol.... so I won't get into them too much.
BUT
We don't want it to be game-breaking either.
My ideas for balancing out PvP typically start out as a small and simple thought and ends up being compounded into a system-sweeping change lol.... so I won't get into them too much.
BUT
A couple of tweaks that could help balance things out:
- Where are the "balancing" hull modifications?
The light fighters and interceptors get bonuses for maneuverability and acceleration. For this, they trade off mass, and normally defensive measures. (interceptor-class should get a little speed boost too, imo).
Medium, Heavy, and MP ships take a huge hit to acceleration (read: resonsiveness), maneuverability, and speed... where are the bonuses? They do indeed have more mass, but there are no "balancing" modifications. An engine with 67 PYR across the board in an A-Wing gets a 1.2? modification... that's an equipment improvement mod. I have no problem with that mod, IMO it's as it should be. BUT with the same stats taking a hit on a larger ship, we should see a balancing modification to defensive equipment.
Namely, % shield strength modification, perhaps recharge as well, and rather than create whole new sets of equipment it would be much simpler to add "effectiveness" mods to armor. The numbers stay the same on the component, but weaps will have further reduced effectiveness against them, dependant on ship class.
Consider it like taking a shotgun to a birdhouse... Boom it's gone.
Now shoota barn. It may damage the wall, but by no means is that anywhere near taking it down.
That's of course a drastic example but it explains the reasoning behind the thought. - Deflector shields that don't deflect is what we have in JtL.
They take damage as Star Trek shields would, which is tosay Kinetic Shielding, taking damage as if they were a solid object.
Star Wars shields are Deflector shields, meant to throw off damage by bouncing it off.
So bounce it off, already!
Fine by me if a 3500 hit to my shields blows them wide open, but the damage should still have been deflected.
Meaning it shouldn't do 2555 to the shield to wipe it out + 1445 to my armor to wipe that out as well. That excess should be disposed of, and the next shot make to penetrate armor, and once armor is gone, chassis and components.
"Cap2Shield" you're going to say... yes. That means that you'll need your skill to score those hits consecutively, not just a lucky shot here and there. Even using only C2S-2 takes 30 seconds on a Pre-Fix DI, so you will have an opportunity to land those hits.
With these changes, a single A-Wing would be less of a threat to a larger ship, and probably no threat at all to a Decimator... but group 3-6 of them and they become athreat as they were intended to be (in traditional tactics), a group of hit-and-run pilots harrying/chipping away at a larger foe.
Mid-weight ships do not become a larger threat, but will have a higher chance of staying alive.
Larger ships, such as the MP, become a serious threat, as it should be; with at least 3 people manning it, it should be a serious threat to everything around it, and require three times the effort to bring down.
Eaca
Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:08 am
#19
1st_Viduus wrote:
However I strongly agree that WO3 is a HUGE culprit here; boosting weapon damage by 30% and then reducing it by 25% is truly pointless.
WO3 isn't a 30% boost, it's a 100% boost, so it's worse than you think.
"Cap2Shield" you're going to say... yes. That means that you'll need your skill to score those hits consecutively, not just a lucky shot here and there. Even using only C2S-2 takes 30 seconds on a Pre-Fix DI, so you will have an opportunity to land those hits.
All CtSS programs have the same delay factor. 1. So on a pre-fix DI you can CtSS every 14-15 seconds, tho the ammount you can shunt in that amount of time may be relatively low.
1st_Viduus
Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:12 am
#20
Thanks for the correction, though I've noted that WO3 doesn't consistently give the same bonus.
Some days it means 2-shot kills on a large T4 npc, other days it means 4.
Some days it means 2-shot kills on a large T4 npc, other days it means 4.
And if all the C2SS are using the same delay factor, they are just as broken as WO3.
However, with a fix to WO3, you are correct in that a person trying to be both offensive and C2SS will become very limited on what he has available for shunting.
However, with a fix to WO3, you are correct in that a person trying to be both offensive and C2SS will become very limited on what he has available for shunting.
sumner
Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:22 am
#21
I could be wrong, often am 
, but in addition to WO3 raising the capacitor drain, I believe it also increases reactor drain. This is what I remember from WO2, and is stated in the droid routien breakdown sticky. At this time I don't think it does either. If it does indeed increase reactor drain then that fact will also limit the number of people who can use it after it is fixed. They simply will not have the power to run it. Another option is to add reactor drain to the CO programs. They appear to not have one right now. Adding this to the CO programs would require more energy management, allowing programs like a fixed WO3 to not be run.
, but in addition to WO3 raising the capacitor drain, I believe it also increases reactor drain. This is what I remember from WO2, and is stated in the droid routien breakdown sticky. At this time I don't think it does either. If it does indeed increase reactor drain then that fact will also limit the number of people who can use it after it is fixed. They simply will not have the power to run it. Another option is to add reactor drain to the CO programs. They appear to not have one right now. Adding this to the CO programs would require more energy management, allowing programs like a fixed WO3 to not be run.edit - fixed some dyslexic moments
Message Edited by sumner on 02-15-2005 10:23 AM
Alyxian
Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:00 pm
#22
Keep it the way it is.
I got blown up in Kessel a couple nights ago in my Opp, it was an A-Wing behind me...fight was awesome...I was engaged with PvE, and all ofthe sudden my rear shields and most armour is GONE! A quick shunt to shield, and a twisting 10-15 seconds of intense evasive before I managed to get a shot into his shields. He ended up taking me out, but I saw him at the Endor station repairing as I hypered to declare again.
It was fun, and no, I am not gonna whine about getting ganked because I didn't, Overt in Kessel is asking to get shot at This is what makes PvP in space fun...tweak your ship, make it so you can take a shot, one, if you can, you have a chance. Play duels in deepspace to test this so your components do not decay.
This is what makes PvP in space fun...tweak your ship, make it so you can take a shot, one, if you can, you have a chance. Play duels in deepspace to test this so your components do not decay.Know your ship, know what it can take...Honest,I thought I had him...but he was hot in that A-Wing
Oh, one mention, MP Ships do need a fix. Double the armour, let me put a shiel on both sides of the ship, and let me double up the guns on top and bottom for a bit more spread. Make them formidable opponents
Message Edited by Alyxian on 02-15-2005 11:02 AM
sumner
Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:07 pm
#23
Coran_Sienar wrote:
Otto, WO3 is bugged. It actually decreasees the energy required per shot by 66% while boosting damage about 100%.
Ok I guess I wasn't clear what I was trying to say, sorry, let me try again. I know that WO3 is bugged, reducing the energy per shot while increasing the damage. WhatI was trying to refer to was the reactor energy requirement. Right now it appears to not be working. when I first got WO2 I loaded it, and it disabled my guns because I didn't have enough energy. Right nowI can runWO3 with no problems what so ever. Granted,I do have a better reactor and RO chip, but I don't think it is enough to cover the increase from both WO3 and EO3 (EO3 makes your engine require like 300% power). So, whatI was trying to get across, is if the reactor requirement is borked too, and they fix WO3 so it requires both more energy per shot, and more energy from the reactor, then a lot of people will not be able to run both programs at the same time.
Imaridril
Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:34 pm
#24
I agree that the first step should be to fix Weapon Overload 3. However, after that I think it still might be necessary to change the PvP damage reduction from 75% to 50%. Even after WO3 is fixed, a lot of players are still going to have no problem running it.
Another thing to check would be to make sure that the Capacitor Overload programs are actually drawing more reactor energy. I haven't done much testing, but I'm suspiscious that the Capacitor Overloads aren't actually drawing the additional reactor energy that they are supposed to. If this is true, then the problem is that itsmaking it easier than it should be for smaller fighters torefill their shields with Capacitor to Shield Shunt.
As for the idea that one-shot kills are a myth, right now an RE'd Level 8 reward gun, which all rebels and freelancers get on Tier IV, will do an average of around 3200 PvP damage per shot and weigh only around 25k mass. (That's with WO3 and the 75% damage reduction.) 3200 damage is enough to one-shot or severely damage a lot of players out there, and 25k mass is small enough that many A-wing and Advanced pilots are able to mount it.
ochad
Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:35 pm
#25
1. Damage reduction is not enough. Across the board on all factions it is just too quick against when facing an opponent with level 7 and above weapons. Not sure how much more of a decrease is needed but it needs some for sure.
2. "Bombers" of all types need some sort of damage mitigation or another ability to make them take more damage. Maybe another shield spot, mitigation, or a very large mass shield that would only work on a massive ship, 200k mass or something.
I've played as both an imp and a rebel and it's just too fast. It only take 2 seconds for my Awing to eat through a 2555 shield. That is one of the largest shields I've seen in game.
2. "Bombers" of all types need some sort of damage mitigation or another ability to make them take more damage. Maybe another shield spot, mitigation, or a very large mass shield that would only work on a massive ship, 200k mass or something.
I've played as both an imp and a rebel and it's just too fast. It only take 2 seconds for my Awing to eat through a 2555 shield. That is one of the largest shields I've seen in game.
Ivon
Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:32 pm
#26
mmm, guess i have to add my 2 creds/cents
firstly, i REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY, encourage those who think pvp will be like ground combat if pvp damage is lowered to go out and try it... how?5 simple steps
1: Go buy some 800 damage noob weapons (if you really want to get picky, you can try it with all different types of damage levels and report back here with good/bad news)
2: Get a friend to do step #1
3: equip guns
4: go into deep space
5: fight them
Anyway, from what i have been doing with a few friends, lowered pvp damage is WAY more fun. Yes, i still like the current system as is (besides mp ships, other thread though) but its just too hard to find people to fight and battles are very quickly over.
so far i have fought in a single player ship with 800 damage guns, and fought in my nova vs a decimator with 800 damage guns. both are INCREADIBLY more fun. so...
For those that do not want pvp damage lowered, find and fight a friend with low damage weapons first =)