Pilot Archive

Thread: Well I knew it was too good to be true

Sandzibarr
Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:27 am
#14

yes but... surely they will do a damage reduction for player to player combat in space.. as they did with the ground game.. and then these exploited sheilds will have a larger effect on the game.



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SANDZIBAR : IMPERIAL COLONEL : ACE : SNIPER

Limobacca
Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:40 pm
#15






psikobunny wrote:

Glad to see this got fixed. Eventually decay will take unfair equipment out of the system, it's pretty much a nonissue.






you are assuming they are using the "exploited" RE shields outside of deepspace since in deepspace there is no decay and they will survive forever now




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Rhysen
Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:57 pm
#16






S-1-l2-H-C wrote:
so are you saying you would sacrifice 1000 f/b shield strength for more armor/hp on the shield? did i say anything about capacitors? seriously, if you have 1000 more shield strength who cares what the hp of your shield generator is. i flew around for weeks with a engine that had 50 hp and if i took a single hit in pvp i was disabled on the spot, but i kept coming back for more.

and as fas as me "only fighting NPCs" i consider my self one of bria's premire pvp pilots.

im not worried about jack, i enjoy fighting other people no matter what the odds. just the other day i went guns blazing into a group of 5 or more imps who were trying to grind faction, i dont care what the odds are.

what i am conserned about most is stuff like this scaring away other people from pvping. overts in space are far to uncommon, i can fly around all day looking for a fight not find any declared imperials. and when i do find one and promply kill him, he shows back up covert and afraid.

when someone kills me in pvp the first thing im gonna do is hunt them down for a rematch.


speaking of which i am an alliance pilot on bria that needs to be shut up, so if any of you imps want a match id love to hear from you.

Message Edited by S-1-l2-H-C on 12-15-2004 10:18 PM





One star me all you like. I really don't care. Not when it comes from someone who says "i knew i should have red my shield last night when i had teh chance."


What part about reengineering shields that had their front and back hitpoints artificially boosted to increase the total max shields on the final product beyond the maxtotal capacity of all the shields used doesn't sound like an exploit? But you expressed your willingness to use it. "one of bria's premeir pvp pilots"? I doubt that if that's how you gain your 'edge'.


And yes, I'm saying I'd sacrifice 1000 f/b shield for more armor/hp on the shield, especially in PvP. Because if you're such a premier pvp pilot, you'd know 1000 f/b doesn't mean jack in PvP with the amount of damage another player can pour into your ship. And your example shield generator with 1 armor/hp would be useless on the first shot past armor in PvE. Happens to me all the time. Blown capacitor = mission over, regardless of my ship status.


Sorry, but you cry too much about 'advantages' that are mostly in your head and nowhere else. The simple thought that someone might have an advantage in equipment due to a nerf seems to terrify you. "OMG! They might have the 92 speed reward engine! OMG! They might have an RE'd f/b reinforced shield booster! I'm d00mz0red!". If you're so big into PvP, just hush and shoot em. The 'advantages' are almost miniscule, though you give them a huge advantage by defeating yourself at the thought.
Tyyylowyspetily
Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:15 pm
#17






Rogue1970 wrote:





Infestus wrote:

I dont think that qualifies as a nerf... but the fixing of an exploit.







I don't know - I was looking at it yesterday before they stealth fixed it and today.


I think it WAS intentionally supposed to be there, placed in by an original developer only to be removed by another overnight who did not understand it. Maybe because of the results of a cert 8 reward engine being RE'd pretty high - who knows.


If you look at the average space loot shield, the front/back numbers are about 20-50% LESS than a good shipwright can craft. The only way to RE a good shield would be with the adjust commands.


If the Shield adjust exploit was in fact intentionally a feature - someone just nerfed loot - not RE'ing.





I agree with this look at things. Assuming that anything creative is automatically an "exploit" is foolish. <ost exploits I have heard of, take advantage of a flaw in AI, or require some doctoring of user interface screens. This didn't feel like an "exploit" to me, any more than slicing a weapon after crafting that weapon for low HAMs or increased accuracy, back when people used to care about that sort of thing. I had thought this was simply depth added to the craft sytem, and interdependancy built into the system. I should have known better than to assume such a level of creativity.




Tyyy LowYspetily:
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psikobunny
Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:26 pm
#18






Rogue1970 wrote:

I think it WAS intentionally supposed to be there, placed in by an original developer only to be removed by another overnight who did not understand it. Maybe because of the results of a cert 8 reward engine being RE'd pretty high - who knows.





I don't think any droid program was ever intended to make any sort of permanent change to a ship or equipment. The Adjust Programs were probably missing the same checks that remove the changeswhen you land.




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mintas
Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:38 pm
#19






Infestus wrote:

I dont think that qualifies as a nerf... but the fixing of an exploit.







/agree





Capt. Mintas Friesh
Ranger in the Rebel Alliance
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Warp1001
Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:16 am
#20






rexan wrote:






Sandzibarr wrote:

yes but... surely they will do a damage reduction for player to player combat in space.. as they did with the ground game.. and then these exploited sheilds will have a larger effect on the game.







Exactly. If these shields were re-d with an explots, then I think the developers should consider doing a passthrough in the database and cap these things at a max value based on whatever the highest possible loot tables allow. This is insane if someone was able to take 2 shields that each had a 2000/2000 F/B defence, take them into space and do a shield adjust front 4 on one and get it to 3500/500 (assuming a 75% shift), then to the rear adjust 4 on the second shield for a 500/3500, then REd the whole lot to get a 3500/3500 exploited shield?!?! Ithink something needs to bedone about this.


This is exactly like the slicing of comp armor which allowed special protections to go over 100%. People took no damage. The armor took no damage. When the developers realized this, they went through the database and re-capped all crafted armor at 90%.


Message Edited by rexan on 12-16-2004 11:48 AM




It's a good bet that this thread and your idea has been read by a Dev.
I hope they do exactly as you suggest.

And SOE,. why wouldn't you?
Now that you hired more programers I hope you do more in regards to this issue.






Zanholo
Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:19 am
#21

I was looking forward to re'ing a nice shield too...bah.



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Rogue1970
Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:20 am
#22






Infestus wrote:

I dont think that qualifies as a nerf... but the fixing of an exploit.







I don't know - I was looking at it yesterday before they stealth fixed it and today.


I think it WAS intentionally supposed to be there, placed in by an original developer only to be removed by another overnight who did not understand it. Maybe because of the results of a cert 8 reward engine being RE'd pretty high - who knows.


If you look at the average space loot shield, the front/back numbers are about 20-50% LESS than a good shipwright can craft. The only way to RE a good shield would be with the adjust commands.


If the Shield adjust exploit was in fact intentionally a feature - someone just nerfed loot - not RE'ing.




YEZ & GNOINTREPID
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Rogue1970
Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:47 am
#23






Tyyylowyspetily wrote:





Rogue1970 wrote:





Infestus wrote:

I dont think that qualifies as a nerf... but the fixing of an exploit.







I don't know - I was looking at it yesterday before they stealth fixed it and today.


I think it WAS intentionally supposed to be there, placed in by an original developer only to be removed by another overnight who did not understand it. Maybe because of the results of a cert 8 reward engine being RE'd pretty high - who knows.


If you look at the average space loot shield, the front/back numbers are about 20-50% LESS than a good shipwright can craft. The only way to RE a good shield would be with the adjust commands.


If the Shield adjust exploit was in fact intentionally a feature - someone just nerfed loot - not RE'ing.





I agree with this look at things. Assuming that anything creative is automatically an "exploit" is foolish.







Thanks, it seems we got one starred over it anyways.


Apparently the people in this thread like nerfed loot and weak RE'd shields...



YEZ & GNOINTREPID
Ace Pilot 12pt/17pt/17pt ELDER
Bounty Hunter Master Shipwright

YezStar ShipYards @
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3400 -5825

BUYING Organomettalic (Lok/Kash) 140cpu & Carbonaceous (Naboo) Asteroids 130cpu

Tyyylowyspetily
Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:15 am
#24

Actually, I disagree with that neccesarily being the case. The reality is, that many simply do not know how to rate a response with which they disagree. Folks, a one star rating for a thread is, or at least should be reserved for a post which is degrading, inflammatory, disrespectful, personaly insulting, or otherwise completely inappropriate. It honestly does nothing to my feelings to one star me, so fire away. Especially you spineless types that like to one star snipe ananomously. Heck, if I'm going to take the one star, I may as well earn it,


In all seriousness, I did not manage to collect the shields I would have needed to get a 3500/3500+ shield for myself before this change went in, but it seemed so blatantly obvious that this was possible to do, thatI figured it was planned, and intentional. Especially given the absolute garbage that most looted shields really are. As for an unfair advantage, I recently PVP'd against someone that I assume was using one of the higher levelRE'd shields ( I still refuse to call using readily available in game commands, as theyhave existed since JtL was released"exploiting"), as I struck them no fewer than 6 times before their ship went "boom", whereas it generally takes 2 hits to do the same.

What did the "unfair" advantage buy them? 2 additional seconds before watching their ship explode. I'd like to see this stealth "fix" re-examined with a new eye towards exactly how this effects much of anything. High level enemies cut through my 2.5k shields like a hot knife through butter. An extra 1k strength means little more than a possiblechance to run, or manybe lasting through more than one pass with another player. I had thought that there was simply more depth the the SW RE process than was initially apparent, and I was actually a little jealous that they had so many cool things going for them. The crafting classes I had played as had nothing like that to look forward to. I am still very disappointed that it turns out that the added "depth" was actually verylikelyan oversight.



Tyyy LowYspetily:
_______\^/_______
~ Wookiee at LarGe ~

Rhysen
Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:27 am
#25






Rogue1970 wrote:






Tyyylowyspetily wrote:





Rogue1970 wrote:





Infestus wrote:

I dont think that qualifies as a nerf... but the fixing of an exploit.







I don't know - I was looking at it yesterday before they stealth fixed it and today.


I think it WAS intentionally supposed to be there, placed in by an original developer only to be removed by another overnight who did not understand it. Maybe because of the results of a cert 8 reward engine being RE'd pretty high - who knows.


If you look at the average space loot shield, the front/back numbers are about 20-50% LESS than a good shipwright can craft. The only way to RE a good shield would be with the adjust commands.


If the Shield adjust exploit was in fact intentionally a feature - someone just nerfed loot - not RE'ing.





I agree with this look at things. Assuming that anything creative is automatically an "exploit" is foolish.







Thanks, it seems we got one starred over it anyways.


Apparently the people in this thread like nerfed loot and weak RE'd shields...







You prolly got1 starred for attempting to justify an Exploit. I would have done it to you myself.


The droid programs aren't meant to make permanent changes to the components nor meant to be used to make permanent changes to them. That's why there are routines to return the component to normal. That's why Shipwrights can make components focusing on specific characteristics at the cost of possible improvements of other characteristics.


Your justifications would be amusing if it weren't for my suspicions that you truly can't recognize Right from Wrong when your interests conflict. I mean come on. The droid/FC in your ship changes the shield characteristics through software and then you pull the shield out of your ship, away from the droid's/FC's influence. And then have the component hacked apart and mixed with parts from other components to make a completely new component. And the changes made are supposed to remain valid?


Think your justifications of an exploit are stretching things a bit here?

Rhysen
Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:40 am
#26






Tyyylowyspetily wrote:

Actually, I disagree with that neccesarily being the case. The reality is, that many simply do not know how to rate a response with which they disagree. Folks, a one star rating for a thread is, or at least should be reserved for a post which is degrading, inflammatory, disrespectful, personaly insulting, or otherwise completely inappropriate. It honestly does nothing to my feelings to one star me, so fire away. Especially you spineless types that like to one star snipe ananomously. Heck, if I'm going to take the one star, I may as well earn it,


In all seriousness, I did not manage to collect the shields I would have needed to get a 3500/3500+ shield for myself before this change went in, but it seemed so blatantly obvious that this was possible to do, thatI figured it was planned, and intentional. Especially given the absolute garbage that most looted shields really are. As for an unfair advantage, I recently PVP'd against someone that I assume was using one of the higher levelRE'd shields ( I still refuse to call using readily available in game commands, as theyhave existed since JtL was released"exploiting"), as I struck them no fewer than 6 times before their ship went "boom", whereas it generally takes 2 hits to do the same.

What did the "unfair" advantage buy them? 2 additional seconds before watching their ship explode. I'd like to see this stealth "fix" re-examined with a new eye towards exactly how this effects much of anything. High level enemies cut through my 2.5k shields like a hot knife through butter. An extra 1k strength means little more than a possiblechance to run, or manybe lasting through more than one pass with another player. I had thought that there was simply more depth the the SW RE process than was initially apparent, and I was actually a little jealous that they had so many cool things going for them. The crafting classes I had played as had nothing like that to look forward to. I am still very disappointed that it turns out that the added "depth" was actually verylikelyan oversight.






Personally speaking, I find your attempts to justify something obviously wrong as insulting to my sense of Right vs Wrong. But that's another topic.


The developers can't maintain balance in the game if the characteristics of the items they create are changed through unintended means. If they put in a shield with 1500 f/b capacity, they have certain expectations on how a shield with those characteristic will influece interaction in the game. Especially when taking in consideration the other characteristics of the shield, such as Mass and Energy Maintenance and Recharge rate. When a characteristic gets changed through an unintended means, permanently changed in thise particular situation, their expectations are tossed. Now they have to account for a shield that has 3000 f/b capacity without the appropriate characteristics for a shield of that strength. They have a wildcard in the system. The droid programs can further influence the new shield characteristics. The changed capacity of the shield without an appropriate balancing change in the mass/recharge rate/energy maintenance can mean a ship having defenses completely unintended (larger capacity with the same recharge rate changes the amount of DPS it takes to down the shields).


A couple of wildcards in the system can be ignored if removing them would cause more problems (or take more effort) than it justifies. But that means closing the Exploit that allowed the unintended change before it gets used by the general public. You do know the standard solution to Exploits that have seen use by the general public right?


Rollbacks, Account Closures, Server Outages to do extensive database changes.
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