Pilot Archive

@Kitten_Starsider:

Anyway, from my experience 0.33 is quite good for a normal gun already so you will rather face slower guns if they are actually RE'ed (crafted guns can get that fast but they usually only have 0.48 efficiency which is quite crappy).
You also forget the pvp damage reduction of 25% in your calculations and from my experience WO3 is 100% extra and not 150%... but i will need to run some testing on that as the FAQ is quite inaccurate (compare the testing results on RO3 and 4).

I'm a master shipwright and have reversed enough loot to get the KSE Firespray Schematic and can say with confidence that a 2k-3k damage gun firing at .33 is average. (I can craft them this way) Guns that fire slower usually have some absurd armor/shield damage modifier like .65 or .7. And in My experience the reversed guns I see are .6 or better. I'm assuming that the folks in pvp in deep space have managed to gather a lot of really great loot and are coming to the table with extremely strong gear.

And in my experience flying Heavies I try and set aside 10-15k for armor and that on average has given me 1000/1000. Recently I've started looking for better armor and got myself up to 1500/1500 and went back down to 1200 as it just wasn't worth the extra mass. Someone in a tie bomber might mount 1500/1500 though but that is only 300 more armor to melt through and I doubt would have any effect on the results above.

Finally, 3 seconds in a fight take actually ages. You usually have less than 1 second before either he flies and evasive maneuver and gets out of your crosshair for a bit, boosts out of range due to heavier engine and heavier boosters he can carry, shieldshunts again or before you have to fly evasive maneuvers to avoid his wingmens firing at you or even worse getting a missile lock at you.
Thats exactly something i enjoy greatly about space pvp as it is fast paced and you always have to fly evasively to avoid fire and survive long enough. You always have to be aware whats going on around you and react quickly. Ultimately, this is a great adrenaline kick.

Not 3 seconds. 3 Shots (1 second). Battles are over in one second under the current system. If an A-wing gets close enough to start firing before an opponent reacts the battle is over. Doesn't matter if that ship punches boosters, turns, rolls, jukes, those first shots are going to land and destroy him. My opinion is that a smaller ship only able to mount 1 blaster should have to work harder to take out a ship more than 3x it's size.

While Bombers need some additional defense against multiple gun attackers like X-Wings, they also need to be more vulnerable to single gun attackers like A-Wings.

I could not disagree more here. I think a multiple gun ship like the X-wing should be able to own a bomber but a single gun ship like an a-wing should have more difficulty killing him. Right now single gun ships can take out any target infront of them with relative ease. The changes I proposed would still leave bomber vulnerable to heavy fighters like the xwing but more protected from light fighters like the awing.

Missle damage seems excessive atm, another item to be fixed I hope. Considering how hard they are to avoid (impossible without CM's?) they should not do so much damage in pvp and it should be possible for small ships to just outrun them.

Missile damage seems pretty good to me. Any kind of countermeasures can chaff away normal missiles pretty much every time, and even Mk II Image-Recs get chaffed about half the time or so. So I can empty my missile launcher at a single A-Wing and not even kill it. How low should missile damage be?

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TomoRainer wrote:
Missile damage seems pretty good to me. Any kind of countermeasures can chaff away normal missiles pretty much every time, and even Mk II Image-Recs get chaffed about half the time or so. So I can empty my missile launcher at a single A-Wing and not even kill it. How low should missile damage be?

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I am not as familiar with missles but as I understand it without countermeasures they are guaranteed to hit. Light fighters need to be able to run away from them as a tactic. And currently without countermeasures light fighters are as good as dead. Probably hvy's too. Hvy's have more room for countermeasers so I'm not very worried about them, but light fighters shouldn't be so vulnerable to missles without CM's. They are supposed to be the fastest most manueverable ships out there and it makes sense to me that they should be able to out manuever a missle in some circumstances. (Running away)

Damage may not need to come down, mabye just their effectiveness.

That's so off base it's funny, Fendius. Many space PVPers are far from uber players; in fact, the 20 vs 20s Starsider has every week are mostly RPed. Even our groupchat is largely IC for these events. Many of those from other servers seem very polite and respectful as well.

A lot of pilots in general seem to have gone to space because ground combat was unsatisfactory, so whatever happens in the CU certainly isn't going to affect my subscription, personally.

My like for JTL's PVP isn't based on how awesome I am, it's because the kinds of changes that are often suggested will result in invincible pilots.

Message Edited by TomoRainer on 04-02-2005 03:28 PM

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fendius wrote:

Unfortunately, people are going to give you a hard time for posting a post like this, i am not one of them, but i did the same thing and got hell for it, apparently the people who like the one shot one kill thing are way overspoken and cant understand what your saying here, that the components dont count for much and the idea of being a skillful pilot also means you can manage to still fight after being shot once, dont listen to the ones houndin ya, these forums have been overridden by Uber players who always have something to prove, but dont worry they will all be gone May 5th

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I know, it's an uphill battle all the way. I really want this game to have more than just dogfights. I want cap ships and missions, and war zones, and death star runs. Currently it won't support anything like that because the battles will end almost immediately. Players won't participate if their experience ends in a few seconds after getting ready for 30 min.

I'm hoping that the ROTW expansion will be fixing as many things in jtl as it's adding. It'd be really frustrating to have all those new ships and nothing to do with them besides dogfight.

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fendius wrote:

Unfortunately, people are going to give you a hard time for posting a post like this, i am not one of them, but i did the same thing and got hell for it, apparently the people who like the one shot one kill thing are way overspoken and cant understand what your saying here, that the components dont count for much and the idea of being a skillful pilot also means you can manage to still fight after being shot once, dont listen to the ones houndin ya, these forums have been overridden by Uber players who always have something to prove, but dont worry they will all be gone May 5th

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No we're by no means uber, and I for one will be here long after May 5. We're vocal, yes because we're experienced. We're sharing our experience with you, who with limited time in the game still think you have "the answer"

Let's put this in basic terms. Do you PvP on the ground? Enjoy it? Good at it? What sort of gear does it take? How long did it take you to get good? I wouldn't know the first thing about any of that, but I know, understand, and think about the space game almost all the time. I have carefully weighed both sides of the issue, but I didn't let my feelings get hurt after a wrongheaded post, nor did I get indignant when I lost in PvP at first. I took my time and learned. It's the insistence that you have the answer without looking fully at the problem that we have issue with, not you disagree with us.

I have nothing to prove, I'm here to make you think about what you say. When I win, I teach, and when I lose I learn. sometimes I do both, win or lose. I am fully willing to listen to any and all cases for changes to PvP, but I won't accept ideas for changes that arent thought out, beat up, kicked around, and still come back grinning.

The only reason I'll be gone on May the 5th is if I go out for cervezas on mis amigos, but be assured I'll be back late that night or the very next day.

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psikobunny wrote:

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fendius wrote:

Unfortunately, people are going to give you a hard time for posting a post like this, i am not one of them, but i did the same thing and got hell for it, apparently the people who like the one shot one kill thing are way overspoken and cant understand what your saying here, that the components dont count for much and the idea of being a skillful pilot also means you can manage to still fight after being shot once, dont listen to the ones houndin ya, these forums have been overridden by Uber players who always have something to prove, but dont worry they will all be gone May 5th

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No we're by no means uber, and I for one will be here long after May 5. We're vocal, yes because we're experienced. We're sharing our experience with you, who with limited time in the game still think you have "the answer"

Let's put this in basic terms. Do you PvP on the ground? Enjoy it? Good at it? What sort of gear does it take? How long did it take you to get good? I wouldn't know the first thing about any of that, but I know, understand, and think about the space game almost all the time. I have carefully weighed both sides of the issue, but I didn't let my feelings get hurt after a wrongheaded post, nor did I get indignant when I lost in PvP at first. I took my time and learned. It's the insistence that you have the answer without looking fully at the problem that we have issue with, not you disagree with us.

I have nothing to prove, I'm here to make you think about what you say. When I win, I teach, and when I lose I learn. sometimes I do both, win or lose. I am fully willing to listen to any and all cases for changes to PvP, but I won't accept ideas for changes that arent thought out, beat up, kicked around, and still come back grinning.

The only reason I'll be gone on May the 5th is if I go out for cervezas on mis amigos, but be assured I'll be back late that night or the very next day.

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We're sharing our experience with you, who with limited time in the game still think you have "the answer

No you're not. You're telling him he needs to practice and "you just don't know how to play".

I have nothing to prove, I'm here to make you think about what you say. When I win, I teach, and when I lose I learn. sometimes I do both, win or lose. I am fully willing to listen to any and all cases for changes to PvP, but I won't accept ideas for changes that arent thought out, beat up, kicked around, and still come back grinning.

So put your money where your mouth is. The ideas I mentioned above are getting kicked around, beat up, etc. Use your experience to show us why we haven't thought this issue through. All I hear from nay sayers is, "You don't have enough experience", "You just need to learn to fly better", "You don't fully understand the problem"

So far none of the nay-sayers have contributed anything that demonstrates a profound understanding of JTL. So here is your chance.

He even went so far as to summarize perfectly what the issue we are all dealing with:

the components dont count for much and the idea of being a skillful pilot also means you can manage to still fight after being shot once


And you say he's not experienced enough!?

Message Edited by Tumbler2002 on 04-02-2005 03:54 PM

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Tumbler2002 wrote:

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psikobunny wrote:

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fendius wrote:

Unfortunately, people are going to give you a hard time for posting a post like this, i am not one of them, but i did the same thing and got hell for it, apparently the people who like the one shot one kill thing are way overspoken and cant understand what your saying here, that the components dont count for much and the idea of being a skillful pilot also means you can manage to still fight after being shot once, dont listen to the ones houndin ya, these forums have been overridden by Uber players who always have something to prove, but dont worry they will all be gone May 5th

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No we're by no means uber, and I for one will be here long after May 5. We're vocal, yes because we're experienced. We're sharing our experience with you, who with limited time in the game still think you have "the answer"

Let's put this in basic terms. Do you PvP on the ground? Enjoy it? Good at it? What sort of gear does it take? How long did it take you to get good? I wouldn't know the first thing about any of that, but I know, understand, and think about the space game almost all the time. I have carefully weighed both sides of the issue, but I didn't let my feelings get hurt after a wrongheaded post, nor did I get indignant when I lost in PvP at first. I took my time and learned. It's the insistence that you have the answer without looking fully at the problem that we have issue with, not you disagree with us.

I have nothing to prove, I'm here to make you think about what you say. When I win, I teach, and when I lose I learn. sometimes I do both, win or lose. I am fully willing to listen to any and all cases for changes to PvP, but I won't accept ideas for changes that arent thought out, beat up, kicked around, and still come back grinning.

The only reason I'll be gone on May the 5th is if I go out for cervezas on mis amigos, but be assured I'll be back late that night or the very next day.

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We're sharing our experience with you, who with limited time in the game still think you have "the answer

No you're not. You're telling him he needs to practice and "you just don't know how to play".

I have nothing to prove, I'm here to make you think about what you say. When I win, I teach, and when I lose I learn. sometimes I do both, win or lose. I am fully willing to listen to any and all cases for changes to PvP, but I won't accept ideas for changes that arent thought out, beat up, kicked around, and still come back grinning.

So put your money where your mouth is. The ideas I mentioned above are getting kicked around, beat up, etc. Use your experience to show us why we haven't thought this issue through. All I hear from nay sayers is, "You don't have enough experience", "You just need to learn to fly better", "You don't fully understand the problem"

So far none of the nay-sayers have contributed anything that demonstrates a profound understanding of JTL. So here is your chance.

He even went so far as to summarize perfectly what the issue we are all dealing with:

the components dont count for much and the idea of being a skillful pilot also means you can manage to still fight after being shot once


And you say he's not experienced enough!?

Message Edited by Tumbler2002 on 04-02-2005 03:54 PM

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We get 40 or so total per battle. That's about 10 regulars who're there every week, 10-15 people who show up with some frequency, and 15-20 who're brand new or have only been to one or two events before. If I had to guess the total pool of space PVPers we currently have to draw on, and not just those who're there on a given day, I'd estimate it at anywhere between 100-200, with the total amount of people who have ever gotten in on the organized PVP at two or three times that number.

Our big battles can last up to five minutes at a time. We'll have two or three of four of them in an hour, with some minor engagements here and there. And that's just the time we spend dogfighting--the total time spent scouting, maneuvering, etc. fills the entire time we're up there. All of that qualifies as combat to me.

That said, I do wish even Starsider had more pilots up there. I'm hoping bundling JTL with RotW will get more people in space, and that the additions with the expansion will help as well.

The problem with these threads is they come up literally weekly, so those of us who like the current system are a little burnt out on explaining it. So back off on psikobunny, he's one of the good ones.

First off, PVP is almost never one-shot kills. Maybe it is if you're flying straight at an X-Wing (in which case it's still not one shot and you're dead, it's 2-4 hitting you so fast it just feels like one shot), but if you've got level 7 or 8 shields and any armor at all you'll be able to survive a shot from just about anything but a lucky hit from a level 10. And if you're pulling evasive maneuvers, that first shot can be incredibly difficult to land in the first place; hitting with two in a row even against something as sluggish as a Y-Wing can take multiple seconds. Against something like an A-Wing or an Advanced, it can take multiple minutes. People who can fly that well are rare, but they're out there, and need to be taken into consideration in any suggested changes, as anything that decreases damage too much will effectively render them invincible.

Second, components make a difference. Those differences may seem negligible before you've PVPed a lot, but the more you do it, the more you'll appreciate even the slightest difference in stats. Engines are the obvious ones, but everything matters. Components matter so much, in fact, it's impossible to "know" the best way to outfit your ship. Everything comes at the expense of something else, and figuring out what to prioritize and just how much you can sacrifice is almost more like guesswork than the kind of exact science it is on the ground.

Anyway, I'll prattle on more at a later date, but right now it's time to go watch me some Mad Max.

Message Edited by TomoRainer on 04-02-2005 07:13 PM

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TomoRainer wrote:
That's so off base it's funny, Fendius. Many space PVPers are far from uber players; in fact, the 20 vs 20s Starsider has every week are mostly RPed. Even our groupchat is largely IC for these events. Many of those from other servers seem very polite and respectful as well.

A lot of pilots in general seem to have gone to space because ground combat was unsatisfactory, so whatever happens in the CU certainly isn't going to affect my subscription, personally.

My like for JTL's PVP isn't based on how awesome I am, it's because the kinds of changes that are often suggested will result in invincible pilots.

Message Edited by TomoRainer on 04-02-2005 03:28 PM

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Glad you pointed out who I was speaking of...

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psikobunny wrote:

Yet another initiate to PvP who thinks the fight begins when the trigger is pulled. Kinda sad.

The fight begins when you see the other person. Maneuver, speed, timing, and aim are all crucial. You sound as if you haven't studied any of those things, and you should.

Demanding change on something you really don't know much about? silly.

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why dont you all lay off a little, it's a forum, it's meant to inform and help communicate, i have nothing personal against you, I'm sure your hell of good pilots and good people, but even if ANY topic gets brought up a lot (ie. CU) it should have a standing chance to get a decent response before you calling people silly or sad..... I mean i have been playing since october 03'... It shouldnt matter how many times i've posted or looked into the past postings, im to busy playing..