Pikeman Archive
Thread: Melee Shouldn't Beat Guns A One Sided Ideology
I have been desperately wanting to get away from the flock of trigger pulling lemmings and join the ranks of the melee fighters for a long time now but I keep hesitating from the yells of weakness when it comes to fighting ranged combat.
Raph Koster made some comments awhile back that "You shouldn't bring a knife to a gunfight". That is absolutely right. Start a fight at 60m from someone that knows you are there and that has a gun and you are screwed plain and simple. Yes, its a game, balance is important, yes yes yes...but the game becomes a little too far fetched (yes, even for star wars standards) if you completely balance melee vs. guns from that standpoint.
But there in lies the exact problem we are dealing with...thats the only standpoint we are looking at.
Guns have been around since the 1800s but every soldier in the army carries knives and the earliest guns were even equipped with knives on them. The bottom line is, a wise soldier will find ways to kill with just about any weapon, even though some are more idiot proof than others.
I guarantee you do not want to be at 2m with an opponent holding a sword even if you do have a gun, the odds are against you. So the question isn't how to make us even with ranged, its how to give us better tools to close the distance.
The gun wielders should try to kite melee. They should try to stay the hell away. If you had a gun and someone charged you with a big sword/staff/chainsaw/whatever wouldn't you run the hell away until you saw them fall? If you don't, you deserve to be dead. On the flip side, what kind of self respecting sword/staff/chainsaw/whatever wielder is foolish enough to charge a ranged weapon right down an open line of fire? Using cover, stealth, and ambush type tactics is exactly the strategy of a melee based combatant vs. a ranged. Close the distance by sneaking, defending, or evading, then once you are in close, do your thing.
The problems SWG presents? A radar for one. How the hell do you sneak up behind someone when their convienient radar shows a big glaring red dot? The higher you advance in a melee skill should hinder the distance you show up on radar and force enemies to spot you with regular line of sight.
Ah, line of sight, another problem. So you cunning little pikemen you, you ducked behind the corner of a building and are just waiting for that little carbineer to circle the corner and get whats coming to him...**edit** he is shooting you through the building!? That needs to be fixed.
The beauty, and challenge of a melee class is being able to overcome the distance and somehow it needs to be implemented to allow a circumvent of a ranged combatants most obvious defense, distance. Until SWG addresses that, melee will always be 2nd tier on the food chain.
Instead of wishing you can charge through the blaster fire and take the punishment, think of ways to improve melee by closing the range, and once that ranged is closed, there should be no question who is boss.
By todays RL standards, which tactically is more advanced than whats been portrayed in the Star Wars universe, melee weaponry is still a formidable asset when used correctly, SWG needs to focus on giving us opportunity to do just that.
In conclusion, the idea of "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight" is absolutely correct. However, the same can be said of "Don't bring a gun to a knife fight". Give melee a realistic opportunity to close the distance or mechanics that allow ambushes or taking defensive cover or movement tactics such as flanking or other surprise manuvers and then we can all be happy.
$.02 from a different perspective,
Stile
If you are melee, dont fight someone that is 60m away. Dont expect to run in like superman into an imperial town overt if you are a rebel melee fighter.
You need a partner, a ranged specialist partner if you are to pvp.
If you are to duel, well that is pretty much impossible vs a ranged weapon:
1st - your not going to start the duel at anything greater then 2m away.
2nd - the ranged weapon fighter is not going to start at less then 15m away.
Common sense. 
If you were to start a melee fighter for the sole reason of pvp, you better find a ranged partner, period.
You have some great ideas there StilLockewood. Often times, people will accept duels under the circumstances they were given. But if it was more limited to the restrictions that we have in real life: lack or a radar, line of sight, or ability to shoot through walls things would be more fair. Melee is obviously a game of tactics when compared to a guy with a gun. You have to make your own traps for them in order to find a way to close that gap.
a) we need chainsaws
b) If terrain (hills) could actually block line of fire, it would be a HUGE penalty to ranged people. However, I have a hunch that if SOE tried to do that, it would melt my computer.
Ok, yes, you are right about the whole gun thing.
But I've studied martial arts most of my life, and no, I don't want to be empty handed against a gun wielder, but I can guarantee you, if you are wielding the gun, it is sheer stupidity to be within arms reach of a hand to hand combat expert, because that is his domain. It's kind of like the unrealistic scenario you see in movies where a guy holds a gun right to another guys head. There is no way that his reflexes will respond in time to pull the trigger if the guy jerks his head one way and deflects the gun hand the other way, and 'boom' he's disarmed of his suposed advantage.
Having a ranged wepon implies that you will be using it at a certain distance, and for it to be advantageous you should use it said distance. This is where the problem lies with SWG. No, I think it should still be foolhardy for a guy to charge a firing squad with a melee weapon. you'd die. But if you manage to get right up on someone you should be rewarded for your hard work of getting youself into optimal position and be able to dispatch ranged guys quickly. But that isn't the case, even if you manage to get right up on a guy and even maybe get a hit in, all they have to do is take off running and shoot behind them, and we don't seem to have the means to stop them from doing this even after we've closed the distance. I think this is wrong, once the ranged character as surrendered his advantage of distance, he should be at an extreme disadvantage to the melee artist, while the melee artist should have it the other way around when they are at a distance.
And also, I know we want to maintain some semblance of reality, but in the end this is a game. That being the case there should be clear strengths and weaknesess to each class in different areas, with the balancing effect coming in the end from each class knowing their strengths and their weakness along with their opponenets, and knowing how to use their classes strengths to their advantage. I don't think anyone is asking for melee to be able to do what ranged do, just for melee to realy excel at what it's suposed to do.
It would be be nice also for melee to have some type of technique which could be aquired, and the proficiency of it increased with advancement ,that would allow them to close the distance between them and a ranged fighter, to get to the distance that gives them the advantage. (assuming the game gets fixed to where close quarters is advantageous for the melee fighter). perhaps some dodges, somersaults, or tuck and roll moves to reduce the accuracy mods of the shooter, or even add a paper, rock, scissor type set up to that scheme where a shooter would have to choose the best type of shot to stop an advancing melee artist, and the melee artist would have to choose the best advancement technique.
In the end, I think that ranged weapon artist have the advantage and in all honesty Idon't think that much should change, but I think the potential for damage ought to be much greater for melee once they close that gap to make it much more rewarding for them to overcome it. It will then lead more people to take up the challenge of using a up close style which lends credence to the Idea that any one can pull a gun trigger, but it takes skill to get in there and get your hands dirty and fight the old fashioned way, and win out against an opponent who is believed to have the advantage.
being master u could look at the guy shooting at u and position your pole to deflect ( NOW THAT SOUNDS LIKE THE STAR WARS I WANT) LOL
I agree with alot of the arguements here, as far as they apply to real ife. But this is a fantasy role playing game. There has to be some balance between classes, or else the game loses it appeal. Some of the changes they have implemented like reduced accuracy while moving and better defensive mods while you are on the move, have helped. But being a melee you will never catch up to a ranged player that keeps on running and shooting over his shoulder, so you with the current changes you will just take longer to die. I know some people will say this isn't the same game, but Everquest had a really good PvP system, as far as fairness to the different classes. The Caster (ranged) would have asmall time when they would have to stay stillto get their spell off. This allowed time for the melee character to catch up and have a fighting chance. Same could be done with ranged weapons. Have a time that the shooter must stop and take aim, or else the accuracy is drastically reduced. If you want to bring real life back into this, there is absolutely NO WAY a guy running away from someone shooting a pistol over his shoulder is going to hitANYTHING. Its hard enough for someone, unless he is very trained (even then he will have to be still and aiming), to hit a moving target with any type of firearm. As it stands right now, there is absolutely no advantage for a ranged character to kneel, or go prone because they do not gain that much as far as accuracy is concerned, and lose defensive bonuses.
All I ask is there to be some balance between a melee and ranged character. As itis right now, a melee character has no business PvP'ing, its just too unfair.
Wolfens Reich
Pikeman on Intrepid