Pikeman Archive
Thread: My thoughts on Pikemen (and women)
Hello, I just thought I'd throw out some thoughts of my own on pikemen and general melee profession issues.
Pikemen certainly need some love. Our toughness bonuses are laughable, andthe accuracy on our higher end weapons is ridiculous. I have always liked the damage on the Vibro Lance (never tried the LVA yet) but once i used a nicely made Basic Lance, I didn't want to use my Vibros anymore, the accuracy stinks! With my Basic Lance, Ialmost always hit, and the ham cost is lower. With the Vibro I would use my special attack, miss, and lose the huge ham it cost with it. New weapons would be nice too, but anymore weapons with huge negative modifiers of 50+ is just gonna make me cry. =P
The issue with the hitting a moving target, it's killing me. In PvP it is not bad if your with a big group, most stand there firing at the other gunners and don't know what hit em' until I take em down with my huge damage. What my problem is, NPCs with guns, specifically factional NPCs. With the upcoming ridiculous 30 second timer for KD, (personally i think 15 seconds would be sufficient) catching that rebel NPC that will run hundreds of meters shooting over his/her shoulder, will be quite a chore. Now, my solution is not that I am allowed to spam KD, certainly not, I find it rather unfair, what I want is all NPCs to engage you immediately if you are melee, or if you are approaching them with a melee weapon. I know people could do this to lure NPCs to closer range, but they could have it so when you close in to a certain range of the NPC that they will instantly turn to melee instead of running for meters.. and meters... and meters... I would also like to see that we be able to attack while moving, it's absolutely furstrating in duels, and PvP.
I also found it rather intresting that we pikemen are seriously gimped on the bonuses given throughout the skill tree... listen to this:
hamhed wrote:
I made a spreadsheet breakdown of melee skill mods. Pikemen and Heavy Swordsmen have a LOT less skills mods than fencers and TKAs. Pikemen have64 less than fencers, 118 less than TKAs, and that is not counting the TKAs damage increases( +98 ) and their meditate increases( +100 ). If you don't count special-status combat defense( ohh boy! +40 against dizzy! ) then we come in dead last, 17 behind heavy swordsmen, and 123 behind TKAs.
Check out the spreadsheet I compiled( in html and xls )
http://www.rit.edu/~iwm7380/swg/meleebreakdown.html
http://www.rit.edu/~iwm7380/swg/meleebreakdown.xls
Well, that's all I got for now, thanks for your time, and please post any feedback, it would be greatly apreciated.
Vusho Yssossk-Kauri
Pikemen get the ability to block, though which probably by far makes up for the less toughness. I'd love it if I could block as a freaking martial artist (TK). but I can't. Really, ALL combat classes need more ability to dodge and block in my opinion. More toughness is not the answer.
Honestly guys, you don't have it that bad. 2H swordsmen actually do equal or more damage than Pikemen (not trying to argue it either way, but from what I've seen on my way to MB the damage output is comparable), and Swordsmen get more bonuses. BUT, and this is a big but, you guys get knockdown and stun moves whereas swordsmen do not. Swordsmen get no knockdown whatsoever, and as far as I know we get no stun (we could get one way up in the tree, but I can't log in to the game atm to check).
So, keep that in mind. Having knockdown and stun are two very huge bonuses. I think you guys are in line for maybe a few more bonuses and also the to-hit modifier for the LVA (and VL?) should probably be reduced somewhat, but you're not gimped by any means. In fact, I almost dropped swordsman to go Pike.
You also have the coolest weapons, and you've gotta love that heavy clank when the LVA strikes home.
BTW, I think you should reconsider using the basic Lance. Not only is the LVA much higher DPS, but it's also AR2 which means even higher DPS. The Lance can never keep up against AR0, even if you hit twice as much with it. Against AR1 or AR2 it's even worse. Then again, I don't use styles so that may come into play (the HAM cost for the LVA is completely ridiculous).
Um, I'm not sure if you have played a pikeman Nagorak but I don't think you fully appreciate the two main issues (at least that most of us have) 1) HAM costs 2) hit modifies for the high end weapons.... when I use a VibroLance, the HAM costs are more than the damage I take from many hits from a mob, I think the number that flashes up when I do say hit2 is around 230, which I belive is asum of the 3 pools most of which is action. I played around one evening with a VL and a normal lance and found the normal lance was more effective unless I had healer back up. Granted the VL is only AP1 but the LVA has even worse to hit mods. Maybe once I get the rest of the accuracy mods in the Combat exp line it won't be so bad. By comparison I also have 2 Hand/Heavy swords at about the same lvl, novice plus a few blocks/lvls in the tree and it isn't even close , using a 2H curved does more damage, less HAM costs and I can fight much tougher foes.
Unfortunately I played the heavy swordsman first so it has made it quite frustrating to try pikeman. Yes the knockdown is nice, but unfortunately the attack spd is slow, (I had to stop using a 2.7 sp VL as I was literaly nearly killing myself in combat). so the target was usually up before i got another hit in.
I'm currently trying to decide between fencer, heavysword man and pikeman (at least novice in each) and I'm really confused now, I like the whole idea of the lance/staff, but I'm unsure if/how they will fix HAM costs, to hit mods, broken block etc and yet nerf knockdown.
2H is fun and I do great damage but I'm guessing the curved 2H might be in for a nerf and not sure how much of the strength of the class is really the weapon.
Fencer is also fun but that class really has no good weapons now to speak of with vibro blade being the only AP one, and tehre are rumblings of a dizzy nerf..
I have no desire to pick the best most uber profession but i would like to know how it will play before investing more time.
Right now I'm think I'm leaning towards fencer for no real reason other than I need to make a decision soon and it seems the more fun..
IAny thoughts from higher lvl pikeman, do the VL and LVA ever become viable with the to hit mods and high HAM costs?
Curious
LOL! Have you ever actually seen this work? Supposedly it does now... but I'm not sure myself. However, one-hand swordsmen have the same ability to dodge as pikeman have to block, but they also have greater defenses against both melee and ranged, and two-handed melee has an even higher counterattack mod.
Joshai wrote:
Pikemen get the ability to block, though which probably by far makes up for the less toughness. I'd love it if I could block as a freaking martial artist (TK). but I can't. Really, ALL combat classes need more ability to dodge and block in my opinion. More toughness is not the answer.
Nagorakwrote:
BUT, and this is a big but, you guys get knockdown and stun moves whereas swordsmen do not. Swordsmen get no knockdown whatsoever, and as far as I know we get no stun (we could get one way up in the tree, but I can't log in to the game atm to check).
True, one-handed swordsman have no knockdown, but I've seen Dizzy be even more effective than knockdown in keeping an opponent on the ground and disabled. Two-handed swordsman actually get a knockdown in the brawler tree, as well as another in the elite profession.
Every class thinks that their'sgot the short end of the stick. Well, we may have gotten the bigger stick (that vibrates), but that doesn't mean it's better. I'd like to see block, counterattack and dodge actually work as well as making the VL and the LVA actually usable... but I have been known to dream.
No, Indigo I don't appreciate those issues as being any worse than any other melee. I hit just fine with the LVA thanks (and it's hardly worse than teh -45 penalties on the Power Hammer). And, the HAM costs, I'm well aware of. Same deal with Swordsmen, it's so high that using specials is just a waste. I don't use styles for either one.
Once again, I'm not saying you guys are perfect, but most of your issues are shared by others (swordsmen, etc) so I'm just saying you're not gimped in comparison.
Yeah we get one at Master Brawler... Not sure what else you're talking about. We 2HSwordsmendo not get a knockdown.
Reign wrote:
True, one-handed swordsman have no knockdown, but I've seen Dizzy be even more effective than knockdown in keeping an opponent on the ground and disabled. Two-handed swordsman actually get a knockdown in the brawler tree, as well as another in the elite profession.
Reign wrote:
True, one-handed swordsman have no knockdown, but I've seen Dizzy be even more effective than knockdown in keeping an opponent on the ground and disabled. Two-handed swordsman actually get a knockdown in the brawler tree, as well as another in the elite profession.
Yeah, we get one at Master Brawler. Outside of that I'm not sure what you're talking about. 2HSwordsmen get no knockdown whatsoever. We get a posture change (sweep), which pales in comparison to knockdown, and that's about it. Trust me, I wouldn't go MB just for the fun of it. 
All I'm trying to sayis there are good sides to Pikeman too. But, I know everyone thinks their class has it the worst.
I'm not saying "All classes must have the same ammout of bonsues!" I'm saying that with that large of a margin between the one profession and another,the "balance" isoutrageous. And what about that bonus to hit on creatures in the hunting line in scout? It's only ranged weapons, that is just raw, and frankly doesn't make sense it doesn't go for melee too. (plus pikemenas muchaccuracy bonuses they can get. Our important defnsive ability of Block is supposedly broken. I've seen it work a few times Versus melee PCs and NPCs, but it NEVER works on creatures, and considering that's mostly what you fight in this game, it needs to be applied to them as well. I'd also like to see a neat way of how Pikemen are gonna work on mounts, should be intresting. =)
. Read the swordsman forum, there's guys taking on At-ST using a powerhammer to bleed it to death. Another advantage to swordsman is after the 30 sec KD patch, swordsman will still be able to kill their target using the powerhammer mind bleed move after a lunge 2 (even if target gets up runs away and try to kite u). Whereas pikeman can only Lunge2 polearmhit3 YAY! Hope the enemy is a rifleman and die in that hit otherwise u're screwed (kiting will begun again when target gets up).
How is this? I'm quite happy with my 3.4spd LVA. I absolutely love the LVA, yes the range mods are bad, but as has been stated before, as you go up the Support tree, accuracy gets better. I hit much more now than I did at lower levels, although I still get streaks of 3 misses sometimes (rarely now). 3 straight misses is bad, I agree, this frustrates me when it happens, especially since it means getting close to dying or dying.
And as for reg. lance vs. LVA/L, you'll never get the awesome hits with a regular lance that you can with the LVA. If you have a big problem with accuracy, keep both and use the lance if you're in a situation where you need to more reliably hit, if even for smaller numbers.
For the HAM usage, I personally am not seeing a problem with this. I use less HAM doing specials with my LVA than I do with my pistol. I use specials almost exclusively with my LVA and have never had a problem with it.
I think pikemen are fairly balanced. Block should definitely work better and we should be better at it than the other melee classes (pikemen have always been synonymous with defense), but I see a fair trade-off for accuracy and modifiers vs. huge hit numbers. I don't even mind missing a couple of times if i can take out a yellow con with 2 or 3 good hits. I'm content with accuracy and toughness downsides if I can keep the nice damage numbers.
This is just my opinion, things are different for others, I'm just saying that it's not always as bad as you're saying. I don't want to be the uber class just so we can be nerfed, I'd rather have some downsides and avoid the nerf as much as possible. You just have to work around them.