Pikeman Archive

I know we've done this about half a dozen times, but I've been asked to do it again. List all the gameplay, balance, and bug issues you have as pikemen.

If you have any that are especially important to you, please mention that you think they should be high-priority.

Mention issues even if it's already been said by someone else, but do not post anything that is hearsay--only post issues you have directly experienced, and bugs that you have personally confirmed.

This is NOT a thread for you to vent or rant. Keep your thoughts concise and to the point.

Again, huh? Well, as if it's really going to make much of a difference:

0. *Lack of purpose.* If we're supposed to be good at area attacks and some form of crowd control, why do we have such low defenses that cause us to fold like wet paper when we use those area attacks and gain the aggro of all the targets? Seems to me like sweep2 is the only class-defining move we have, is this what we're supposed to do?

1. Super-low toughness and defenses

2. High HAM costs

3. Super-low toughness and defenses

4. I'd like to see anyone with a red-lettered name post anything relating to the class on this board again.

5. Concern shared with most players out of the "other" melee classes (fencer/swordsmen/pikemen) that TKA are extremely out of balance with the rest of the melee classes that spend the same number of skill points and that new additions only continue to widen the gap.


*Accuracy* and *blocking* are currently being fixed on test center to some degree, so I have left these **important** issues off the list. I look forward to the new blocking numbers, I'm cautiously optimistic about the accuracy bonuses, and I'm doubtful the extra melee and ranged defenses will help much.


antares
master pikeman

I think my major concern is my accuracy when using a vibro lance or a long vibroaxe. I understand this is the devs attempt to balance the damage and armor piercing abilities of the weapons.However, seeing miss occur over the targets head almost each time I swing begins to make me question if I want to continue in this class. I continue to stay since I say to myself that I'm just at a low tier and in time I will hit more often (which I will hope is true).

Right now this class is challenging and progression is slow. I must say that I am enjoying this profession, and I hope that positive changes happen in the near future.

the fact that i miss waaaay to much with any weapion

more vrity of weapions would be nice

and the fact that we should be able to keep 2-4 people at bay...not nessarly deling out large damage..but the ability to keep them ocupied...all threw out history pikemen were defence.

some exampiles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikeman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikeman

but most notibley (3herd paragraph) here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_weapon

I can't stress enough that we should NOT send in issues that are already fixed on TC (IE: Accuracy, block, tanking) Please keep this in mind when submitting the report.

#1 issue) HAM. We all know this, moving on...

#2 issue) PVP Damage. We are fine, for now, in pve, IMHO. But in PVP, TK's do 1 for 1 damage with us and hit almost two to three times faster than us. We need a bosst to PVP damage, and, if we are slowed to 3 seconds, a boost to pve damage as well. This includes increasing our Hit3 damage from x3 to x4. Our moves need to have a serious looking into to make sure that our best move is no longer spin 1.

#3 issue) Defenses. Our status defenses do not seem to be working. I am always KD'd on the first hit. Our melee, ranged, and toughness are super low (I beleive rifleman and pistoleer will actually have more melee defense than we do after this next patch). We need more defense, even with CoB.

#4) Range: We were promised an increase in range to 10m to fix the server/client issues. This is a big problem in PvP and needs to be fixed.

#5) Purpose: What is our purpose? Are we supposed to have high defense and decent attacks? Or low defense and very high attacks? Are we the 'crowd controllers'? Right now, I see just -slightly- above avg attacks with the lowest defense. I would like an explaination as to what the devs think our class should be, so we may make suggestions on how to get our class to that point.

#6) I would like to see a special ability availible to Pikeman ONLY. Think TK meditation line, but do not copy anything from them. This could be a skill in combat or outside of combat. Suggested ability: Being able to use all special attacks while on mounts.

I was unaware accuracy was being looked into, thanks for the update.

I would also like to be able to have a pikeman only special ability. The using specials on mounts is a good idea, but I see that as possible advantage for melee classes. Another suggestion might be defense vs mounted opponents (while on the ground), and perhaps it could be combinedwith ranged and melee defenses.

-note- not nessecarily in order of importance.

1. The weapons accuracy modifiers on our weapons. I don't feel that the extra accuracy skill mods that have been added on TC make up for the accuracy modifiers on our weapons. Even at master, I miss too often. I could almost (almost) tolerate the ham costs on our weapons if we could actually hit.

2. HAM costs. I literally don't last two hits against an npc that cons dark blue if I use specials (if they get some hits on my health bar). But then, if I could hit them more often I might be able to take them out first.

3. Low toughness/low defensive skill mods. Out of all the melee classes we have the lowest defensive skill mods, especially toughness, when compared to the other melee classes.

4. Polearmhit3... The devs (or one of them) said we should be the equivalent to the rifleman... hard hitter and slow. Well... we're slow. Polearmhit3 only has a 3x damage modifier; tka,fencer,swordsman all have 4x damage modifier... that will make a differnce.

5. Block. Doesn't seem to help. I've counterattacked more often then blocked, to my knowledge (at least the one time I noticed on my combat log I counterattacked... never seen a block though). We have a significant more block on TC right now... does it seem to help at all? If 20 block has no effect, should 100?

6. Range. This, I simply fail to comprehend. Why is it that polearms, the longest melee weapons, have a range of 4m and vibro knucklers, which should increase the range of your fists by maybe 2 inches (and if I understand it correctly, it actually decreases the unarmed range. I read that a tka without vibro knucklers has a range of 8m... is this correct?) has a range of 5m.

7. Target out of range. Please, we can barely hit while our target stands still. How is it that when they are moving they are out of range at 0m away?

8. Um... why can someone shoot me through a hill?

Pikeman - in a class by ourselves. Mostly because there are so few left, and no dev ever gives us a thought.

1. HAM costs - as a doctor, I can buff up to the point where these dont matter. Is that the way it should be? I'm afraid to attack anything if I'm not buffed.

2. Inability to move - If we move, we can't hit. We can't use terrain to our advantage, since guns shoot through everything. So, we stand there and hope for the best. Not much fun or skill involved there.

3. Lack of Weapons - Only two to speak of, neither particularly good. Miss like a crazy, and suck you dry. Perhaps if the weapons scaled as you rise in the ranks. I don't know if the +mods work or not, that is not my department. If you pick up a weapon that you are certified to use, you should be proficient with it. By the time you become master, you should own that skill. That is the point of master. A novice pikeman should miss like crazy with a Long Vibro Axe, a Master Pikeman should not.

4. Lack of Distinction - Anyone can do what we do. Most do it better. What we could do, crowd control & generally taking the pain, was taken away.

5. PvP - We can't compete. We bring a knife to a gun fight. If the target runs, as they all do, we cannot hit them. Not once in a while, not occasionally, never. If the game is all about guns, get rid of us now and avoid all the fuss.

6. Lack of Attention - Make us good, or make us bad. Whatever. But if this is to be the state of the Pikeman, send a note and say so. "You are as good as you will ever be. Live with it, or pick up a gun skill." As it stands now, everyone who is a pikeman is waiting for the next 'fix' with trepidation. Will we get better or dismally worse. Anyone who has not been a Pikeman, or fought with one, looks at us with awe, until we are incapped in 2 hits. We look pretty, we fight ugly.

7. Combat - I don't know if its a coding issue, or what, but why do all combat classes have to be so similar. Bleeds, dizzy, stun, knockdown. Why not make classes separate and distinct. A compliment to each other, not a carbon copy. Perrhaps that will alleviate some of the whining. If only Pikes have a knockdown, there will be no whining, as there are only 10 of us, so who will complain?

I notice that the NPC pikemen are way better at being pikemen, than we are allowed to be. They block, dodge and deal damage very effectively. They don't incap themselves, and can hit a running target. They can move around while fighting and even dodge while lying flat on their backs.

This is my first post to the SWG forums, despite playing since release. I am almost a master Pikeman, and I feel I must finally speak out. And this is just the thread I was looking for.

I have finally figured out the primary problem with Pikemen. It's not a speicific detail, like how our two best weapons all having god awful range modifiers and HAM costs. It's a structural, conceptual problem. It came to me in a flash when I saw a dev comment posted to Stratics.

THE NEXT PARAGRAPH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART. If it interests you, keep reading the rest.

Pikemen are conceived of as the "RIFLEMEN OF MELEE." This is a horrible and destructive comparison because it is impossible strucutrally for there to be a concept of rifleman of Melee. You might as well talk about the "Rifleman of entertainers." Riflemen can attack from the greatest distance and for (theoretically) the most damage. Since they take the least risk defensively--an opponent has to cover far too much ground to get in anything good, especially if against melee or a creature--they have the weakest defenses. Pikemen, on the other hand, take equal risk defensively with all melee classes. But because we are perceived as riflemen, and not as a unique class with a unique purpose, we have the lowest defenses of any melee (i.e. +toughness). Further, I would go so far as to argue that we do the least damage. As a sop, we get a long list of area moves, but typically these are just upgrades of the previous area move (with the exception of the area knockdown--a skill that Pistoleers, (ironically, since, again, we're pigeonholed as riflemen) and others also get. While the area moves look nice on the skill tree, we get to use the fewest special moves per fight of any class (details below), further reducing their usefulness.

Now I get into the details. This might be long, but I really want to drill down into this from the framework ofPikemen As Their Own Paradigm, not the riflemenof melee--even the loudest voices for improving pikemen happily swallow that misconception.

1) WHY I WOULD ARGUE WE DO THE LEAST DAMAGE OF ANY COMBAT CLASS:

Everyone knows pikemen have the least toughness (12 fewer points than fencer and swordsman, 22 fewer than TKA) of the melee classes (yes, this section is about offense, not defense, I know. Work with me). Melee classes, as they are the biggest damage takers (tanks if you will) are the class most likely to wear armor. Logically then, for Pikemen, with the worst defense, armor is of greater necessity than for any other class.

Compound the proclivity for armor wearing--as heavy as possible--with the issue that the HAM costs of our special moves & our weapons innate HAM costs (I noticed thatthese two issues have already been brought up by MANY others, so I wont elaborate on their already exhaustive arguments and suggestions), and you create a situation where we can use the fewest special moves of any class. Just throwing a stun1 and an intimidate (intimidate isn't even a pikeman skill, it's brawler, and stun2 would cost me too much HAM) I lose over TWO HUNDRED POINTS of health and action. Plus, the stuns only stick about 2/3rds of the time, and intimidate about 1/3rd in my experience. Logically, then, pikemen get the least "special damage" (i.e. damage above and beyond what would be done using no special moves) of any melee class (and thus, of any combat class).

It has been argued that pikemen have the lowest damage weapons of any class. I'm not certain if this is true. But I do know that Pikemen weapons are in the least demand of any weapon (since there are fewer pikemen than any other combat profession). Plus, ditanium steel is a pain to find. So weaponsmiths are highly unmotivated to make extra effort towards creating the best possible versions of our high end weapons. There is enormous motivation to build the best LLCs and FWG5s, and they're out there. Boy are they out there. I'd be willing to pay the prices the ranged types pay for their best weapons, but it's just not attainable. On top of this, our two best weapons have all negative range modifiers. Causing our weapons to hit less often than any other combat class.

Furthermore, the modifiers that boost output above and beyond what the weapon alone does (+accuracy and +speed) are sub-par. To spell it out:

TKA: Acc: +105 Sp: +120

Fencer:Acc: +60, Sp: +65

Pikeman: Acc: +60, Sp: +50

Swordsman: Acc: +40, Sp: +50 (ouch)

All of this combined, and without question, you have PIkemen as the lowest damage dealers of any melee class.

2) PIKEMEN HAVE THE WEAKEST DEFENSES OF ANY MELEE CLASS.

I can be brief on this one, as others have already made the argument. I can't say we have the weakest defense of any combat class, because ranged types aren't so good at taking melee damage. Unlike melee, though, they can kite, mitigating the disadvantage against creatures and melee PCs and NPCs. So instead of a long argument, I provide you with anotherpoorly formattedchart for comparison purposes:

Key: MD = melee defense; RD = ranged defense; T = toughness

TKA: MD 30 RD 30 T 47

Fencer:MD 24 RD 19 T 37

Swordsman: MD 20 RD 15 T 37

Pikeman: MD 20 RD 15 T 25

3) PIKEMEN GAIN XP MORE SLOWLY THAN ANY COMBAT CLASS

First off, in groups, melee classes gain less xp because melee can initiate combat from a distance while melee must run across the open ground to close the distance. Sometimes, for the welfare of the group, the melee playercan't even cover the distance, but instead must wait for the target to come to him. To do otherwise risks agroing an entire nest of hostile creatures. Skill levels, player skill,and weapon quality being equal, then, melee will always get less xp per fight because of this (with a possible exception of TKAs--those guys do insane damage.) I've watched a TKA Master solo a rancor without doc buffs.

Second, Pikemen do the least damage of any class, as I've conclusively demonstrated (at least in my opinion. HA!). Therefore, in groups, Pikemen gain xp slower than any other group member. Solo, melee die more often than any other class. This is because of two factors. First, they do not have the option to kite. Second, they have a harder time pulling single creatures from lairs since they must get within extremely close range to initiate combat. XP gain is a function of A) how tough of a creature you can kill at a steady pace, and B) how fast you can kill those creatures. As the lowest damage dealers, it takes us longer to kill creatures. As the worst defense of any melee class, we require longer to heal than any other melee. As melee instead of ranged, we die the most, and thus have to make the most heal-up-and-run-back-to-where-you-were-fighting trips. Logically, then, pikemen gain xp slower than any other class. This frustrates novices and leads to a high attrition amongthe few new pikemen who come along.

NOW FOR MORE LOGIC, VARIOUS TOPICS

We have a very limited range of specials. This compounds with the problem of being able to do so few specials at all do to high HAM costs (especially with armor). Basically, we can knockdown, stun, target action pool, and bleed action. Spin attack 2 has a chance to dizzy targets, but it rarely sticks and the opportunities to use area attacks are much lower than you would likely suspect. Further, the HAM cost on area attacks is even higher than normal.

TKA, by way of comparison, have special moves that target health pool, target action pool, target mind pool, blind, stun, dizzy, knockdown, and a combo move which damages all 3 pools at once. If doing huge damage and being able to tailor make the damage and effects you do is the TKA niche, then so be it. But pikemen need their own paradigm, to use the business jargon I so detest. Perhaps it's for pikemen to have off the chart inate defensive stats that are the match of the TKA's offensive power (the TKA defense is also, paradoxically, at the top of the charts). One thing I ask you--don't try to make us into multi-mob specialists. The occurence of multi-mob fights is surprisingly low. In groups, things often don't live long enough for multi-target combat to matter. Solo, any mob you can take on 2 or more of is often too weak to give you any real xp--ESPECIALLY at the high end game. Multi-target management skill is not an especially important element of this game.

Giving us longer attack range than other melee would be worthless. In order for that to be an advantage, we'd have to attempt to use in some rank parody or the most gimp kiting attempt ever.

Ultimately in this game, damage is king. This is so because any character can get the best armor and know he'll at least live through x number of hits. The key is putting the target down in that time. Further, in groups, damage translates into xp gain. To compensate Pikemen for their lowest offense in the game would require giving us more than just the best defense in the game. We need a miracle. But I believe in the team behind this game, and think they just might be capable of pulling one off.

I sincerely appreciate any feedback on this issue, and will try to check this thread regularly (not my usual habit at all) to make sure I can keep up with the discussion. Please give pikemen the TLC they so desperately need.

Knaeve Bakayaro -- Pikeman

One more thing. If you want to make melee fighters more effective in PvP, the best thing to do would be to MAKE THE TERRAIN STOP LASER FIRE.

Being able to shoot through a mountain kills immersion and looks stupid. It also means that the only thing a melee character can do to avoid being shot is to get more than 64m from his opponent. This is hard when the opponent can run as fast as you and can hit you every single time even while running at full speed.

If I could hide in one of those annoying trenches that seem to mar every surface in this game, I could at least make him come close to me in order to shoot me. As it is, we're just out of luck.

It would also make melee characters more effective against ranged MOBs as well - they'd have to get a line of sight before they could fire.

So add this issue to my list - the terrain does not block laser fire.

And don't tell me it's too expensive computationally. Turbine did this in Asheron's Call 4 years ago. If a bunch of guys in a garage in Boston could figure out how to make their terrain stop missile attacks with servers running on 1999 hardware, surely a company the size of Sony can figure out how to do it with modern machines.

--Insomnia

/agree With everything above.

The ultra low toughness seems really goofy to me. Just in the brawler tree the other three melee classes get a +10, Pike gets +4. I had better defenses as a rifleman, which is just kookie.

Damage per HAM seems kind of silly right now. I have been switching to a wood staff to do my state effect moves so I don't kill myself. Right now as a novice, it is just not cost effective to do special moves with a good weapon since they kill me so fast. So it is old EQ style: Click auto attack, wait for critter to die..

Accuracy / HAM on the LVA and VL are also painful. I have a combat log that shows me swinging and missing a critter for a full two minutes. Lucky for me it was a kreetle.. My friend is still laughing at me about that.

Variety in weapon damage type. This is something that I would like to see as a feature addition in the future. Everything is kinetic except VL, right? How about a stun pole, or something like a pole hammer that can do blast? Seems as though everything I run in to has 20% kinetic resist.

Anyway...

Maybe if they someone could explain what the rationale behind the low toughness is, I might be able to live with it. But even still, it seems awfully low.

Especially since I am a wookie & cant wear armor

---

Cythem wrote:

75% of our moves are the same thing named differently. Polearm hit two stuns and does mediocre damage, what's stun two do? Spin two dizzies, area two dizzies and stuns. Take spin two away, and make it an area bleed.

---

I'd like to second this. There is not much of a difference in these two moves.

antares
master pikeman

1) Defense/toughness--Tanks with paper armor we are.

2) HAM--Pikemen kill themself, and between that and missing too much, they lose to Chubas

3) Damage--How can we lose to every other class? WE are only the Hardest hitting class IN THEORY!!!