Pikeman Archive
Thread: Class Definition....
Heya 
This is a popular idea circulating throughout the combat profession community. Correspondents are asking thier players what they would like to see thier profession as. IE, what strengths, weaknesses, group purposes do you want us to have.
When submitting your responses, please remember that everything comes at a tradeoff. If you want us to be the highest damage dealers, we're most likely going to have the slowest speed. This is a balance issue that needs to stay constant so that all professions are beatable but viable.
Well, let me know what you guys think, I'll take the general consensus and send it to the devs
I would like to be able to dish out a large amount of damage per hit. I would also like to take a sizeable beating. . . .not take 600K of damage from a krayt but also not to get killed by awhite coneither.
Also if we are going to dish out huge amounts of damage then we need to be accurate. Obviously a huge damage output = slow speed. If our speed is slow we have to be able to connect. Connecting is crucial since we won't be swinging as much as our melee bretheren.
I see the pikeman as dishing out huge damage slowly while being able to take a good bit of it in return.
Like Rock from Soul Caliber. . . not saying "hey make me like that guy" but he's a good example to go by. When you think of a guy with a huge pike you think of a guy who can really dish it out.
Basically like the way the profession is now. Just up the toughness and accuracy and there we go.
I have previously posted these thoughts (as well as my thoughts for the other melees) Here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pikeman&message.id=9357
it's a bit long, sorry.
PBN
Remember in the Matrix Reloaded movie when Neo was fighting all the Mr. Anderson clones with the metal staff...that's what I want.
My dream: Effective Armor Rating
Here's how it works:
I have this idea for a skill that would allow pikemen to fight defensively - sort of like Center of Being. However,it would result in anattack speed penalty and in returnwe wouldgetlight, medium or heavy armor rating against a certain type of damage. The rating and damage type would be dependent on the properties of the weapon we had equipped. This would also open the door for a wider range of weapons with different applications. It would have a duration of like2 minutes and reuse timer of like 10-15 minutes.
This would allow us to have and effective armor rating without actually wearing armor. That would be unique and useful. Though, it's not perfectly thought out...it's a starting place for a cool idea I think.
Gunman21 wrote:
When submitting your responses, please remember that everything comes at a tradeoff.
Deal out the most damaging area and focused attacks with a slow but yet deadly accuracy. The tradeoff caould be speed and not HAM costs or defense. Perhaps the areattacks could be stacked with bleeds too to make them more potent and our CoB needs to be doubled in duration.
excellent work Gunman21
In addition to having to the high block stats that are currently broken, our weapons should also be like armor.
If our toughness isn't going to be any higher and our melee defense isn't going to go up, make our weapons have the stats like +20 melee defense or 80% resist kinetic damage that may or may not stack with whatever armor we're wearing. (though I feel it should stack)
Realistically we should be fast, but this is a game, we should at least be very fast when not using specials, and maybe have a slight penalty to speed on certain specials that deal massive damage.
Armored weapons and crowd control that makes us commandos with pikes would start to make us more defined as a class. Our accuracy probably shouldn't beas godly as id likein pvp or against npcs but it shouldn't be so bad that we miss more than 2 times in a row.PVE accuracy should be high though, i'm tired of missing a knocked down fambaa, and I especially hate when hedodges or counterattackswhile on the ground! If we had speed, damage and a great amount of toughness/defenses we should make effective crowd controllers.
Just some Ideas
First of all, the underlying effectiveness of our class: multiple target, supposedly longer range fighters. And I think we will end up being slow with high HAM costs (it takes a lot to swing a weighted pole), that's almost a given.
Now, my discertation:
Our class has something of a split, we have staffs, we have lances/pikes. Both are technically polearms, but used differently.
1) Staffs are used in a balaced, fast combo chaining way to defend, block, counterattack, sweep, keep range and deal concussive against multiple targets. Staff fighting does not distinguish ends of the weapon, the staff is used as a whole. Staff fighting is usually quick and fluid, not fast, but quick due to the combining of momentum from one move to the next. The actual blows come fairly slowly, but blocking is done very quickly. Fast on the defense, slower, but heavy, on the offense.
2) Pikes/lances are tipped, one end of it has some device/characteristic setting it apart as the attacking end. These are/were used to keep an enemy or multiple enemies at a distance yet again, but are/were capable of powerful armor piercing blows and could be used quite effectively in defensive stances. Pikes were the only real counter to the most powerful weapon of midieval times, the armored cavalry, and were usually found in the front of a battle holding enemies at bay or in the service of a noble as a guard. All defensive positions, but as mentioned before, designed for powerful armor-piercing blows.
So, we have the staff-fighting side and the pike-fighting side. As has been mentioned previously, if you have seen the Matrix Reloaded, there are decent examples of each of these styles. Neo fighting the horde of Smiths: what does he pick up when the numbers get to great? A metal staff. He sweeps, he blocks, he keeps them at range, he uses the force of the weight in motion to deliver concussive strikes. Then, later, in the Frenchman's mansion, a couple of his henchmen grab a pike, a staff with a weighted, piercing instrument on one end. Notice the difference in styles?
Do we ignore the staff-fighting aspect and focus on the "pikeman" aspect?
I believe this is partially one of the reasons it seems our class lacks definition. Both styles are using polearms, but different styles of polearm fighting. This difference is not reflected in our actual weapons or specials.
Where do we fit into the melee balancing act? Even with 4 classes, it's a little difficult to say what specialized types there should be. It's clear we should have 1 fast, low-damage attacker, 1 slow, heavy-damage attacker. Where does the best defender fit in? Does the fast, low damage attacker get it, or the slow, heavy damage attacker, or maybe a 3rd, best-tank type with little in the way of offense (doubtful)? Then there will be the one class that is the most well-rounded. At least, this is the way I see the possible landscape of melee, this is the way it typically is, right?
- TKA will most likely be the well-rounded utilitarian class. They already are: very fast (same as fencer), decent damage (but not very powerful overall, ignoring dps, no armor piercing really), and very effective defenders.
- Fencers will most likely be the fast attackers with lightning dodge reflexes, as they already are.
The issue I see is between swordsman and pikeman. Who is the damage dealer? Who is the defender? Are the two types exclusive? Currently, we are out-damaged by the heavy swordsmen. They have area attacks similar to us, which I personally do not think they should, as we are clearly the ones designed for area fighting. So...we are slow, area fighters. Do we want to be the big damager-dealers or the big defenders? It's unclear to me what we were originally desgined to be.
We have low defenses, but our weapons are primarily defensive weapons. I can see having low toughness, we fight with a polearm, we don't get hit much, ideally. We keep the enemy at a range, sweeping, crushing, etc. TKA are right up there taking the blows. They can have the big toughness, that makes sense to me. Polearm fighting is fast on the defense, slow but powerful on the offense. I do not know how we could translate this into the game. Heavy swordsmen with a power hammer make sense as a super slow, extremely powerful damage-dealer.
Perhaps we could see ourselves in a position where we are excellent defenders, *** not natrually as in toughness, but in blocking and keeping the enemy on his back and away from us so that we do not get hit. *** But when we do attack, we should be able to deal crushing strikes because of the force we put into swinging the pike/lance/staff. Lots of crushing all the time, and definite bleeds if the weapon is tipped/has an axe on one end. But I cannot say we should do more damage than a power hammer, thinking of things in ideal terms. A hammer cannot be used effectively at all for defense, it is a purely offensive weapon, and very slow.
After trying to work all this out in my head, this was what I wrote first:
I think I would say we should be very good defenders, the absolute, unrivaled best in keeping an enemy at range and on his back, the best at blocking. We should be slow, low on natural defenses. We should have crushing damage, the heaviest behind heavy swordsmen, who I think should have the best, heaviest damage and almost no defenses.
But, after I wrote the above, I looked and saw that it is remarkably close to the current situation. I was stumped for a while. Then I saw what the difference is. Currently, we are not good defenders at all. We have nothing that makes our KD better than anyone elses, block is worse than dodge or counterattack. We do have the good offense, we always have. It would be better if we had the 4x damage modifier at master. That would fix our offensive issues right there, I think.
What is left to change then?
Defense: the ability to keep an enemy at range, area attacks and specials that are more than just damage and sometimes dizzy or stun. We should be the best at area attacks and defense! No questions asked, the best. We should be able to keep an enemy at a distance, that's one of the main purposes of polearms: range both in defense and offense.
Accuracy: I don't care if we still have negative modifiers, just make it better. We should have better accuracy.
Area attacks: We should be superior in area attacks, we are not at present.
Offense: We need some more offensive capabilities, our damage needs to be raised some.
Advantages:
Area attacks/defenses - the best of any class, unquestionably, hands down.
Best ranged melee defense - keep the enemy at range, keep them on the ground, all of them. Keep the enemy out of range for them, but in range for us and our attacks. Perhaps the weapon acting as a kind of armor boost, as some have already mentioned above. Nice idea, because our defenses are all in our weapon. We are very fast defensively (imagine twirling hand-over-hand a staff, blocking incoming sword slashes or punches). Our defenses make us great for being up front in a group, giving us a good group role.
Offense - 2nd most powerful. Crushing blows and heavy bleeds. Lots of bones being broken. We have a lot of momentum to use when attacking (see disadvantages). And the addition of a vibrating axe at one end means great armor piercing and bleeds.
Disadvantages:
Speed - We are quick and fluid when defending, but quite slow on the attack because we have a lot to swing around from whatever defensive position we are in. And if it's a pike, it's going to be heavy. Except for the power hammer, the slowest melee class overall.
Natural defenses - Lowest natural defenses, once an enemy gets past our staff/pike, we're in a bad position, not much we can do. Our only defenses, which are superb, are in the use of our weapon.
HAM costs - high HAM costs. If we're swinging around a heavy pole, defensively and offensively, we're going to be using up a lot of strength and stamina. It makes sense that we would have painful HAM costs, but not as much as we have now, seriously, it's just ridiculous what we have now.
antares
master pikeman
atimes wrote:
Is there any way that ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ can't get anything less than a 5 star?
Nope. Not from me anyways.
Antares for Mayor!
erm, actually the teras kasi are light damage, but fast damage dealers. Dont think that because you see them spam 2k damage on an ap0 or ap1 target that they are brutal damage dealers. have them try to tank a medium or heavy armor target and go grab a soda, he will still be fighting when you come back (or likely, dead).
The Tkasi is utility. knockdown, dizzy, attack all 3 ham bars at will, meditation. Id call this class the 'light infantry' class.
Pikemen should have weapons with attributes on them. Just like antares said, staffs and pikes are completely different weapons. Make the staffs have high +block mods and low AP and medium to low damage, slow attack speeds. This way the pikeman fighting with a staff becomes VERY defensive and deals AP1, medium damage in return.
Pikes and Lances should have high +accuracy, slow speed, AP2 & 3, heavy damage. Making them excellent offensive, yet slow , weapons.
Making the pikeman the only brawler proffession that can be both highly defensive and highly offensive... depending on the weapon equipped.
Swordmen are heavy damage dealers. The 'heavy infantry' so to speak. medium speed, high damage, relatively low defenses, able to area attack with abandon.
Fencers are in between the swordmen and the tkasi in damage, but they are very defensive in nature. good dodge, fast weapon, medium to almost high damage.
As I see It there are 4-5 main points that should distinguish a class:
Speed, Damage,Defense (could be active or passive this is why I said 4-5), andFlexability
1) Speed, is just that, the ability to hit anopponent MANY MANY timesbefore he can even get a shot off
2) Damage, Ability to deal heavy damage inflicting Swings
3) Defense (passive), Being able to takemultiple hits without worrying
4) Defense(active), Blocking, Dodging, Countering.....Activly defending oneself
5) Flexability, Being capable of changing styles or specials to accomodate a situation (and all-round class)
I see each melee class as defining one of these characteristics:
Speed Class: Fencer
I see Fencer as the fastest class, capable of dealing many hits very quickly however the tradeoff is it is the least damaging class. They might alsodo wellin a type of active defense (Dodging). Probably a Low HAM class because the cost would rack up fast.
Damage Class: Heavy Swordsman
Hard hitters, the Heavy Swordsman Class should be the most damaging Class, Slashing or blowing things away with an oversized Hammer is going to deal some serious damage....no matter who your opponent. Trade-off is, they are slow as hell. On Par with Pikeman....but more on that later. They also havean active and a passive defense, which are sub par.
Defender Class (passive): TKA
The Teras Kasi should have the highest passive Defense of all the classes, in the form of toughness. Being able to take Many hits is a valuable trait.....downside is your still taking Hits.
Defender Class (active): Pikeman
The GODS of Defense (mostly) Quick to counter, block and dodge every hit coming their way, The weapon becomes a virtual wall of Defensive swings and moves. Moderate Heavy Hitting Class, About the same speed as Swordman but 2nd in damage. The Downside is when an attack penatrates the Weapons defense, the pikeman take serious damage as he has sub-par Passive Defense. Most of the specials should be geared towards Defense. With the ability to push enemies back, KD and Dizzy with many Area moves it is great at crowd control. Downside is while the defensive moves are cheap on HAM they do little damage. However the Offensive Moves are High on HAM.
Flexable Class: TKA
TKA should be one of the most All round classes with meditiation, Ability to hit all 3 pools and average speed (slower than fencer)and damage (below Pikeman/Swordsman).The Ability to do multiple Status Hits and other cool moves is a valuable Asset.
Overall Report:
I would Like too see TKA a bit lowered on the damage side, As they deal some serious damage at master, Fencer Could gain a bit more speed. Swordsman should get a damage boost, and a speed drop. Pikeman....Wellgive usSome serious defensive mods, and change the moves around as described.
First off let me say that this is the most productive post I have seen come out of the pikeman community yet (although there may have been some b4 I started posting)...Kudos to you all, and Kudos to Gunman for getting us all to think productively.
Now on to my contribution… forgive me for the length.
There has been talk of changing our abilities with the change of weapon. I will detail how that will work to an extent (things will be missing, so please correct me where I am wrong or if I leave something out)
Note: These are all in comparison to each other
Staff- The staff is a light weapon, with extremely high defense capability and low attack ability. It would be used most likely to keep your opponents busy while the ranged attackers would mow them down with laser fire. Also, used to keep your opponents on the ground and scared to stand up.
Extremely high blocking-creating a wall of Defense
High ability to push opponents back-while we are creating our "wall of defense", it seems as though you would push enemies back by slightly changing your stance.
Low ability to keep enemies pushed back-once we have pushed our enemies back, there is low ability to keep them there with this weapon if you are still creating your wall of defense due to the amount of time it would take you to extend your staff to keep them there, it would break the wall of defense and leave you open for that split second.
High Knockdown-With the speed and momentum we have going it would be easy with a slight change in stance to sweep the feet out from under them.
Medium-low damage-Medium damage because, with a slight change of stance we can use the momentum we have to deal some damage. Low damage, if we aren’t presently using our staff for anything, we are going from no momentum, and should have less damage (it is still a stick)...
High Area Attack-While defending ourselves, it should be easy to use that to attack multiple targets at once. Still with the same damage I stated, but just multiple targets, it would be easy to do the same attack on multiple targets as it would on one, due to the speed we have going.
Low HAM cost-A staff, if used properly, should take minimal strength, slight movements for large effects.
High Accuracy-The staff would have high accuracy due to the slight movements needed to change the direction of the staff, thereby creating high accuracy, plus it is light so it is easy to move around.
No bleeds-Finally, no bleeds, I think the only bleed we would get from a staff is a nosebleed...lol...or maybe if we break their bones and the bone is sticking out.
Lance (Vibro/Force)- The lance would be used to cause extremely high damage and bleeds on a singular target. Also would be used to maybe implement a “Throw” move, where we could throw the lance to hit a target. Would be used effectively for mount-to-mount or ground to mount combat.
Low Block- With the lance, we should still out block any class, but it shouldn’t be as high as using a staff, the lance isn’t used that way, it’s not balanced to be used that way. Sharp point on one end and blunt on the other. We can swing is around effectively defending ourselves, but we cant create the “wall of defense” we can with the staff.
High ability to push opponents back- well, all we have to do is thrust it at them and they will either be impaled or they will jump back, seems simple enough to me.
High ability to keep enemies pushed back- with the way one holds the pike, it is extended at almost all times, which would mean that all one would have to do is swing the pike around to keep their enemies at bay.
High Knock Down-Once again, with the way we hold the pike, sweeping someone’s feet from under them should be simple.
Low Area Attack- with the way the pike is used to attack, mostly stabbing motions, it would make sense that the area attack of a pike would be minimal, I guess there could be some slashing but it would deal minimal damage.
Medium HAM cost- while the lance is mainly stabbing motions, it is still fairly heavy and must be extended to do damage, thereby requiring a lot of strength to pull the moves off accurately.
Medium Accuracy- Using the Pike would require a lot of strength to hit accurately, that and it would be hard to keep your pike going straight when it is fully extended.
High Bleeds-Just stab someone, they will bleed…
Long-Vibro Axe- The weapon would be used in both stabbing and sweeping fashions. Thereby giving it both good defense ability and attack ability, but the weight of the weapon would make it hard to be accurate and it would use a lot of energy to keep it moving. It also had high Area Bleeding capability and the ability to keep multiple opponents at bay, maybe using a last ditch type of move where the LVA is swung around in a circle.
Medium Block-Due to the ability to use the LVA in sweeping motions, it gives the ability to knock aside the incoming weapons, but its weight makes it slower, allowing more weapons to get through the defense.
High Ability to push opponents back- For both reasons stated above for both the staff and lance. A little more on the lance side though.
Medium Ability to keep enemies pushed back- Due to the weight, it would be more difficult to use it to keep enemies back, unless we had a sort of last ditch move where we would just swing the thing in circles.
High Knockdown-Still, easy to sweep
High/Medium Area Attack-Able to use sweeping motions to inflict damage, but still slower then the staff, plus it would leave you open to attack.
High HAM Cost-Due to the weight, it requires a ton of energy, stabbing or sweeping.
Low Accuracy- Once again, due to the weight, it would be hard to keep it on target.
High Bleeds-Stabbing or sweeping, the axe-type blade on the end would do a lot of bleed damage.
Now, to tie it into this post.
Each weapon would give us a different role in the group setting, thereby giving us different class definitions. Staff would be for purely defense, Lance for purely attack on mainly singular targets, and LVA is the all around weapon. So we can be pure tanks, tank with attack power, or pure attack. But overall we would still be the gods of defense.
Sorry, if I missed anything, and sorry it doesn’t have too much to do with the post, but maybe it will be used later, who knows.