Pikeman Archive
Thread: Tanking/Crowd Control...OUCH! Stacker glory days are so gone...
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WarWidow
Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:33 am
#1
Well after adventuring the Ryatt Trail and assaulting upper level creatures in combat testing with various effects. It was time to focus on NPC's more then creatures.
Yesterday my guildand a few allies formed 2 strike teams to do a littlemilitary base destroying.
I was part of team 2, I am the resident tanker for crowd control.
Both our groups have a small mixture of professions including a Master Doctor and about 6 Jedi. Thier where a few turrets present.
I am a Master Pike/MTK. I had on all my best gear including advanced modded clothing with attachments. I had COB rolling and LOOPED Bacta Infusion running. Nutrient Injection, good-food-defence/offecne mix, buff'sfor a Master Doctor, and popped some spice. Trust me I was juiced up.
I used no personelsupport...wouldn't help anyway. Droids are weak and Faction pets are a complete joke and waste of time!
Lets rock.
So the main plan is to storm the bases one side at a time to clear the NPC's and then we send in our main flipper. I was sent into the mob first teamed with a Master Defender. Basically I run in, area sweep, knock the NPC's down while ranged support shoots them hard. I then keep area attacking while the Jedi holds the line with others in tow.
Both my melee and ranged defence at this point are well over 300 not counting COB. I figured with the looped bacta infusion running I could maintain a steady attack support. Well 1 NPC was fine, 3 doing ok, but once the base NPC's agroed you for the split second when you area assault, your health bar goes down faster then an easy prom date!
Much like high level beasts, the base NPC's are doing painful damage. And no lie, I was knocked off me feet with knockdown at lease 10 times. My own knockdown worked less then theres. I kept getting multiply RESIST's against it. So much for controling the crowd. Thank god these NPC's can't spam ROOT! 
Doing non-space low level Faction missions for fun is one thing and PvP is another. But when it comes to the main heat of high level operations like this, I have to say, I am not happy with the so calledadvanced tanking abilities we have.
Thank god my Jedi guildies and Master Doctor where throwing heals around. Not to mention my template has Doctor 4000 in it and I was using 1200+ stim D's.
Now granted the new CU has made creatures and base NPC's stronger now. But how can I be the support of crowd control my profession is designed for if I am ripped apart so fast? Seems my Innate Armor and 2400+ PSG barely helped when 6+ guns where hitting me. Not much of a tank when I am lting on my back. 
Think its worth the low fill and low timer to use defence migration food?
Not to beat a dead horse into the ground, but polearm needs better crowd control ability if we are to hang with the big boys and live up to our melee roll.
On a positive note, we did destroy many bases. Team work is the key.
With my template I did inflict medium damage on the level 80 NPC's. I am a Master of my profession and a military ranked Colonel. Trust me I am not to happy watching a base sargent NPC knock me down with ease and shrug off assault from my 1000+ max dam pike like it was nothing. Lame!
But lunge is all borked, our knockdown is so so at times when it wants to work, intimidate seems to stick but is so pale compared to the old days, and warcry just makes me cry. We need an adjustment on our moves for our role when mobbed. At MASTER level, our leg assaults should trip up opponents and root them in close quarters. At close range ALL melee should have some form of weapon disarm or KILL ZONE penalty. Within 5 meters, any gunslinger should feel PAIN!
Also seems the base NPC's where hitting me alot more then I was hitting them in close quarters. My accuracy was around 300 with food too.
I will say I am 100% happy the the GCW has increased the NPC's to be feared when solo. But what does my MASTER status mean? Granted I can hold my own with lower level content and minor PvP, but once melee is mobbed or spammed, its a trip to clonerville. Which it should be for balance, but come on, melee is being pushed to the back burner.
I won't even go into heavy PvP. You can be the badest melee master on the street, but once that pistoleer roots you and 2 riflemen begin to shoot at you and speed racer Jedi keeps running around in circles throwing a sabre at you, our TANK class means poo poo!
I know team work is key now. I won't aurgue with that. But balance is balance...how can I control crowds or tank when even at close quarters mobbed opponents beat on you like a red headed step child?
My MCH would of been wasted numerous times by those base NPC's...but thats another headache...
Lorechaser
Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:56 pm
#2
Out of curiousity, how many NPC's were facing you at one time, and what CL were they?
While TKM/Pike is a tank, I don't think SWG is City of Heroes - I don't expect to tank more than 3-5 opponents at the same time. I'm not doubting your technique, since you obviously have pike down pat, I'm just curious how many people it took to make you feel overwhelmed. For me, I typically start to feel panicked at 6.
While TKM/Pike is a tank, I don't think SWG is City of Heroes - I don't expect to tank more than 3-5 opponents at the same time. I'm not doubting your technique, since you obviously have pike down pat, I'm just curious how many people it took to make you feel overwhelmed. For me, I typically start to feel panicked at 6.
WarWidow
Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:08 pm
#3
Depending on the NPC or creature I would say it varies. For the base NPC's 5 or more started to fan the fire. But there where a few moments when 3 would hurt just as bad with their knockdown sticking so much.
I agree, it's not City of Heroes, but if you can't control the odds that are against you with master level skills when your roll is for close quarter support, your roll among the team is put in question.
With out my Doctor skills and rapid healing, the odds would of handed me a new one even quicker.
Granted we shouldn't be Superman, but at lease make are special attacks better for our roll.
I am hoping when PATCH 19 hits, we will inflict a little more damage with elemental attacks.
I agree, it's not City of Heroes, but if you can't control the odds that are against you with master level skills when your roll is for close quarter support, your roll among the team is put in question.
With out my Doctor skills and rapid healing, the odds would of handed me a new one even quicker.
Granted we shouldn't be Superman, but at lease make are special attacks better for our roll.
I am hoping when PATCH 19 hits, we will inflict a little more damage with elemental attacks.
Gunman21
Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:41 pm
#4
Most base NPCs are around lvl 80 now. Meaning 1v1 is a fair fight that you should win. 2 adds a level of challenge to it...3+ and you start needing help to tank. Remember pikeman get tanking ability from intimidate, so it's best not to try and control multiple mobs at once untill they're all /intim'd.
There is a big problem with the tanking game in swg right now and all 3 tanking professions are feeling it, so that is a factor as well. This is something that is high on my list and I hope to see improved.
Lorechaser
Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:20 am
#5
Gunman: That's what I was wondering. Do the devs consider 2 vs 1 a challenging situation, and 3+ vs 1 a huge fight? It seems that way, but I wanted to be sure. An area intim would be very nice, if that's the case.
As a data point, I was running last night out of Dant with an 8 person group. Of them, we had 2 cl 80's (one a ranged, one me, MPike/TKM/Doc4000), a few mid 40's - rifle and heal, and then a mix of sub 20's.
Our first mission was Jantas. Our novice TK started screaming "DROP IT! DROP IT!" and fled. The rest of the group gave it a go, and ended up fleeing. The healer and I stayed back, and systematically dropped 14 Jantas before catching up to the rest of the group. I was fighting them 5 at a time, but the healer was kiting, so I was doing an odd pick up and lose situation.
We then moved on to Pikets (Cl 78-81). I was tanking up to 6 pikets at a time at first (the sub 20's had a few issues with aggro control and pulling), and went down once, but not too bad. Alternating spin attack, sweep attack, warcry and applying intim to each kept me mostly up. I burned about 5 stim D's, and healed a lot. If there were less than 4, I had no issue what so ever.
Based on last night, and your experiences, I think what may need to happen is the devs re-examine what it means to be a CL 80 mob. A piket, with high ham and armor, but no specials, is nothing compared to an NPC with medium HAM and armor, but high specials.
As a data point, I was running last night out of Dant with an 8 person group. Of them, we had 2 cl 80's (one a ranged, one me, MPike/TKM/Doc4000), a few mid 40's - rifle and heal, and then a mix of sub 20's.
Our first mission was Jantas. Our novice TK started screaming "DROP IT! DROP IT!" and fled. The rest of the group gave it a go, and ended up fleeing. The healer and I stayed back, and systematically dropped 14 Jantas before catching up to the rest of the group. I was fighting them 5 at a time, but the healer was kiting, so I was doing an odd pick up and lose situation.
We then moved on to Pikets (Cl 78-81). I was tanking up to 6 pikets at a time at first (the sub 20's had a few issues with aggro control and pulling), and went down once, but not too bad. Alternating spin attack, sweep attack, warcry and applying intim to each kept me mostly up. I burned about 5 stim D's, and healed a lot. If there were less than 4, I had no issue what so ever.
Based on last night, and your experiences, I think what may need to happen is the devs re-examine what it means to be a CL 80 mob. A piket, with high ham and armor, but no specials, is nothing compared to an NPC with medium HAM and armor, but high specials.
AtaruShunji
Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:47 am
#6
and what have we learned? do not throw area attacks at high lvl mobs.
negilum
Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:20 am
#7
AtaruShunji wrote:and what have we learned? do not throw area attacks at high lvl mobs.
yep. high level combat has changed and people need to learn to start using the mez/assist strategy.
unfortunatly we'll probably start seeing the million hp, death-touching, AOE spamming boss mobs that mez/assist seems to cause.
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