Pikeman Archive

Thread: GTO's melee ideas 1. melee precision (miss? I'm at point blank!)

GTOfire
Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:43 am
#1

I've got some IMHO worthy ideas for the elite melee professions, but not for any one of them in particular. However, there is simply no 'SWG development discussion' forum of any kind, where one can put forward their general ideas, so I'm just going to cross-post them in all the elite prof forums, because I'm looking for input from every one of them.



Part 1: melee precision.


The 'problem'.

Ever try to hit someone? Thought so, and did you miss? Didn't think so. Either these retoric questions are correct or you were very drunk

Be advised this does not include evasion, that doesn't count as a 'miss'. I'm simply talking about when you try to punch someone and your hand simply goes to a place where your opponent is not and has not been standing. The very thought is completely ridiculous tome.


In-game

Putting this into SWG, leaving aside counter-attacks and dodges/evasions and blocks, every attack you place at point blank should hit your opponent. However, this does not mean accuracy is obsolete in my mind.


Alternatively:

Accuracy (both of yourself and your weapon) should influence WHERE you hit your opponent as opposed to IF. When you're attempting a neck hit, you might hit a little high resulting in a head hit, or a little low for a body hit. However, default attacks are already random to a point and you don't want pool-specific hits to become unreliable. So how can we change that? By having you ALWAYS target a specific pool automatically, where your accuracy determines if you hit the pool you're hoping to hit or another one. non-pool specific attacks will automatically target the enemy's lowest pool.

This does NOT go for PvP, as every combat player has their mind as the lowest pool and the inability to heal this through regular means would result in unbalanced duels.


Result:

Accuracy remains important, but now melee professions make more sense and get a bit of an advantage over ranged in PvE because they attack the lowest pool by default with the accuracy making them attack a different pool sometimes, while ranged accuracy may still make them miss.

PvP remains the same, though I think the 'miss' should simply be taken out of PvP and replaced by 'evade' or 'dodge'.


I understand putting a system slightly different in for PvE and PvP isn't the best solution, and I'd prefer myself seeing the same solution of default pool attacks applying to PvP as well, but I can see why that might not be a good idea.



--------------------------------------------------
Ysh-Hon Eeryuu
General Manager, Intergalactic Society of Megalomaniacs (ISM) Enterprises
ISM Superstore - Tatooine (outside Bestine) -1735, -4917

M Tailor, M Artisan, M Merchant
GTOfire
Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:49 am
#2

I've got some IMHO worthy ideas for the elite melee professions, but not for any one of them in particular. However, there is simply no 'SWG development discussion' forum of any kind, where one can put forward their general ideas, so I'm just going to cross-post them in all the elite prof forums, because I'm looking for input from every one of them.


Part 1: melee precision.


The 'problem'.
Ever try to hit someone? Thought so, and did you miss? Didn't think so. Either these retoric questions are correct or you were very drunk
Be advised this does not include evasion, that doesn't count as a 'miss'. I'm simply talking about when you try to punch someone and your hand simply goes to a place where your opponent is not and has not been standing. The very thought is completely ridiculous to me.


In-game
Putting this into SWG, leaving aside counter-attacks and dodges/evasions and blocks, every attack you place at point blank should hit your opponent. However, this does not mean accuracy is obsolete in my mind.


Alternatively:
Accuracy (both of yourself and your weapon) should influence WHERE you hit your opponent as opposed to IF. When you're attempting a neck hit, you might hit a little high resulting in a head hit, or a little low for a body hit. However, default attacks are already random to a point and you don't want pool-specific hits to become unreliable. So how can we change that? By having you ALWAYS target a specific pool automatically, where your accuracy determines if you hit the pool you're hoping to hit or another one. non-pool specific attacks will automatically target the enemy's lowest pool.
This does NOT go for PvP, as every combat player has their mind as the lowest pool and the inability to heal this through regular means would result in unbalanced duels.


Result:
Accuracy remains important, but now melee professions make more sense and get a bit of an advantage over ranged in PvE because they attack the lowest pool by default with the accuracy making them attack a different pool sometimes, while ranged accuracy may still make them miss.
PvP remains the same, though I think the 'miss' should simply be taken out of PvP and replaced by 'evade' or 'dodge'.


I understand putting a system slightly different in for PvE and PvP isn't the best solution, and I'd prefer myself seeing the same solution of default pool attacks applying to PvP as well, but I can see why that might not be a good idea.




--------------------------------------------------
Ysh-Hon Eeryuu
General Manager, Intergalactic Society of Megalomaniacs (ISM) Enterprises
ISM Superstore - Tatooine (outside Bestine) -1735, -4917

M Tailor, M Artisan, M Merchant
GTOfire
Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:53 am
#3

I've got some IMHO worthy ideas for the elite melee professions, but not for any one of them in particular. However, there is simply no 'SWG development discussion' forum of any kind, where one can put forward their general ideas, so I'm just going to cross-post them in all the elite prof forums, because I'm looking for input from every one of them.


Part 1: melee precision.


The 'problem'.
Ever try to hit someone? Thought so, and did you miss? Didn't think so. Either these retoric questions are correct or you were very drunk
Be advised this does not include evasion, that doesn't count as a 'miss'. I'm simply talking about when you try to punch someone and your hand simply goes to a place where your opponent is not and has not been standing. The very thought is completely ridiculous to me.

In-game
Putting this into SWG, leaving aside counter-attacks and dodges/evasions and blocks, every attack you place at point blank should hit your opponent. However, this does not mean accuracy is obsolete in my mind.


Alternatively:
Accuracy (both of yourself and your weapon) should influence WHERE you hit your opponent as opposed to IF. When you're attempting a neck hit, you might hit a little high resulting in a head hit, or a little low for a body hit. However, default attacks are already random to a point and you don't want pool-specific hits to become unreliable. So how can we change that? By having you ALWAYS target a specific pool automatically, where your accuracy determines if you hit the pool you're hoping to hit or another one. non-pool specific attacks will automatically target the enemy's lowest pool.
This does NOT go for PvP, as every combat player has their mind as the lowest pool and the inability to heal this through regular means would result in unbalanced duels.


Result:
Accuracy remains important, but now melee professions make more sense and get a bit of an advantage over ranged in PvE because they attack the lowest pool by default with the accuracy making them attack a different pool sometimes, while ranged accuracy may still make them miss.
PvP remains the same, though I think the 'miss' should simply be taken out of PvP and replaced by 'evade' or 'dodge'.

I understand putting a system slightly different in for PvE and PvP isn't the best solution, and I'd prefer myself seeing the same solution of default pool attacks applying to PvP as well, but I can see why that might not be a good idea.



--------------------------------------------------
Ysh-Hon Eeryuu
General Manager, Intergalactic Society of Megalomaniacs (ISM) Enterprises
ISM Superstore - Tatooine (outside Bestine) -1735, -4917

M Tailor, M Artisan, M Merchant
GTOfire
Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:55 am
#4

I've got some IMHO worthy ideas for the elite melee professions, but not for any one of them in particular. However, there is simply no 'SWG development discussion' forum of any kind, where one can put forward their general ideas, so I'm just going to cross-post them in all the elite prof forums, because I'm looking for input from every one of them


Part 1: melee precision.


The 'problem'.
Ever try to hit someone? Thought so, and did you miss? Didn't think so. Either these retoric questions are correct or you were very drunk
Be advised this does not include evasion, that doesn't count as a 'miss'. I'm simply talking about when you try to punch someone and your hand simply goes to a place where your opponent is not and has not been standing. The very thought is completely ridiculous to me.


In-game
Putting this into SWG, leaving aside counter-attacks and dodges/evasions and blocks, every attack you place at point blank should hit your opponent. However, this does not mean accuracy is obsolete in my mind.


Alternatively:
Accuracy (both of yourself and your weapon) should influence WHERE you hit your opponent as opposed to IF. When you're attempting a neck hit, you might hit a little high resulting in a head hit, or a little low for a body hit. However, default attacks are already random to a point and you don't want pool-specific hits to become unreliable. So how can we change that? By having you ALWAYS target a specific pool automatically, where your accuracy determines if you hit the pool you're hoping to hit or another one. non-pool specific attacks will automatically target the enemy's lowest pool.
This does NOT go for PvP, as every combat player has their mind as the lowest pool and the inability to heal this through regular means would result in unbalanced duels.


Result:
Accuracy remains important, but now melee professions make more sense and get a bit of an advantage over ranged in PvE because they attack the lowest pool by default with the accuracy making them attack a different pool sometimes, while ranged accuracy may still make them miss.
PvP remains the same, though I think the 'miss' should simply be taken out of PvP and replaced by 'evade' or 'dodge'.

I understand putting a system slightly different in for PvE and PvP isn't the best solution, and I'd prefer myself seeing the same solution of default pool attacks applying to PvP as well, but I can see why that might not be a good idea.



--------------------------------------------------
Ysh-Hon Eeryuu
General Manager, Intergalactic Society of Megalomaniacs (ISM) Enterprises
ISM Superstore - Tatooine (outside Bestine) -1735, -4917

M Tailor, M Artisan, M Merchant
Soulburner69
Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:08 pm
#5

interesting concept



Anoreoa Lo'Bachi
Master Dancer, Master Entertainer, and Master Musician
Inrepid
*************
Thrass Frassdems
Master Swordsman: Warrior, Master Brawler
Wanderhome
ccmetal555
Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:35 pm
#6

Sometimes in games we need to forget reality and focus on in-game balance. In the SWG world if you are a Swordsman you are either swinging randomly or you are attacking the head. You don't know HOW to hit someones legs. While in real life this concept is foreign it holds true in SWG. You need to consider game balance as well as verisimilitude.


I think that accuracy works as it should. The system at least. Some accuracy modifiers on weapons should be modified in my opinion, but the system itself is a good one.

GTOfire
Fri Mar 05, 2004 3:47 pm
#7

well this idea isn't swordsman specific, so I don't mean to imbalance the melee classes by giving swordsman a bonus that the others don't get. Perhaps for sake of game balance, the system as proposed by me and reinforced by Raider77 should only apply (in both PvE and PvP to make it easier) to the health and action pool, since they are by game design the physical form, where the mind pool is mental and not 'hittable' so to speak by default. PvP remains balanced as it was since not everyone can target mind now, swordsman keeps their advantage of hitting the mind pool specificaly, and this 'miss' idiocy is removed, everyone can be happy




--------------------------------------------------
Ysh-Hon Eeryuu
General Manager, Intergalactic Society of Megalomaniacs (ISM) Enterprises
ISM Superstore - Tatooine (outside Bestine) -1735, -4917

M Tailor, M Artisan, M Merchant
Soulburner69
Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:52 pm
#8

the way i see it personally is if a tka with master brawler can get 200 accuracy, all of the melee classes should get 200 accuracy.


and also i think the bigger the creature the less you miss. i can understand swinging at an average sized humanoid's head and missing, but when attacking something (for example) as large as a fambaa, you should technically not miss. but there are times when i can attack a fambaa and miss three or four attacks in a row which i dont really find understandable. in the basic sence i guess i'm saying the bigger the target the easier it is to hit, and the smaller the target the harder it is to hit.



Anoreoa Lo'Bachi
Master Dancer, Master Entertainer, and Master Musician
Inrepid
*************
Thrass Frassdems
Master Swordsman: Warrior, Master Brawler
Wanderhome
GTOfire
Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:20 pm
#9

Allakhazam!

I now pronounce your idea worthy and it shall be done... ah yes I see the devs are working on it now... done!


heh, there already is something known as a creature's "to-hit" stat. Get Ranger and you'll even be able to see it in the examine window. This modifier affects your accuracy, and a rancor is a lot easier to hit then a durni. Not bad for a day's work, your ideas were completely implemented already



--------------------------------------------------
Ysh-Hon Eeryuu
General Manager, Intergalactic Society of Megalomaniacs (ISM) Enterprises
ISM Superstore - Tatooine (outside Bestine) -1735, -4917

M Tailor, M Artisan, M Merchant
Soulburner69
Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:34 pm
#10

ok, no need to get sarcastic there GTOfire


even though there are to hit bonuses for creatures. how come people still miss hitting them then? as i said i still can miss hitting something like a fambaa, (as per my example) three or more times in a row. that's even when it's knocked down. so i guess the to hit numbers arent quite high enough for some creatures. heck i can miss hitting something as large as a enraged dune kimogilla, or a peko peko albatross, and they are some of the largest critters in the game.



Anoreoa Lo'Bachi
Master Dancer, Master Entertainer, and Master Musician
Inrepid
*************
Thrass Frassdems
Master Swordsman: Warrior, Master Brawler
Wanderhome
Dzhokar
Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:27 pm
#11

I believe the "to hit" number GTO is speaking of is the creatures accuracy modifier. So it doesn't effect your chance to hit it but rather it's chance to hit you.



\\\\\\\Gosu///////
.::Elder Jedi::.
..::Vendorslocated at -2088 -4588 in::..
..::Mos Comption. Right outside of::..
..::Bestine on Tatooine::..
----<CRIPS>----
-------------
----
OutbackWookiee
Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:44 am
#12



I kind of like it but the problem I see with your plan is that a hit is still a hit.


Whether it be to the health, action or mind pool, at hit that registers damage is still that. The idea of the whole 'missing' thing with the accuracy is you don't do any damage.


Now if this idea could somehow be incorporated into the existing system, you may have something.





LegwandLongfellow
MasterPikeman/Brawler
TKA/Fencer/HeavySwordsman
There'sabigblackholegonnaeatmeupsomeday
Somedayfadesaway,likeamemory


raider7734
Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:08 am
#13




I had an idea similar to thisa while back but never postedit. The core concept was that all melee professions would be able to target any pool. (Ranged probably could too, like a Rifleman in cover or a Pistoleer that's really close. Running, though, forget it - it would be all center of mass shots aka untargeted damage).


Anyway,atNovice Brawler you would get the moves Target Health, Target Action, Target Mind.They wouldn't do any damage butcause your autoattack and Hit1, Hit2,Hit3 etc to targetwhatever pool you wanted.


As you progress thru thebrawler tree you wouldgain bonuses so you are more successful inhitting the targetingpool, but the big gainswould be in the elite melee professions: Fencer would gain +50 accuracy bonus when targeting health, Swordsman +50on mind, Pikeman +50 on action. TK would need no such modifiers,their accuracy is already through the roof.


A 'miss' would just hit a pool you didn't target. True misses or doing zero damage wouldn't happen unless they evaded / blocked / dodged / counterattacked.


I still think they need to do something about Mind - as long as it's 'special' and doesn't buff as high as health or action, and isonly healable in a limited fashion, a system like this is unsuitable for pvp. A start would be making music and dancer buffs more on par with doc buffs.





----------
IGN Kye • vendor wp -1444, -3847 Naboo
"Persistence is synthetic Luck"
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