Pikeman Archive
Thread: GTO's melee ideas 4. evasion and armour
Page 1 of 1
GTOfire
Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:44 am
#1
I've got some IMHO worthy ideas for the elite melee professions, but not for any one of them in particular. However, there is simply no 'SWG development discussion' forum of any kind, where one can put forward their general ideas, so I'm just going to cross-post them in all the elite prof forums, because I'm looking for input from every one of them.
Part 4: Armour vs defensive actions
The 'problem'.
Once you've trained in martial arts enough to get a feel for what an enemy might try to do to you, you can more easily anticipate an incoming attack and evade or block it. Depending on your style, you might also be proficient in counter-attacking. A well trained artist is very hard to hit, and every move you try can result in them performing a counter-move. Why do you think professional boxing takes as long as it does between good fighters? Because they don't wildly bash away, because they dodge, block and counter-attack and know the other guy does it too, that makes them cautious.
With a full suit of armour on, you cannot dodge incoming attacks very easily, so you must rely on the armour to take the damage.
In-game
Against a single opponent, it might be more efficient to spam special moves then to let default attacks do the work. Against multiple opponents, the HAM cost of making special moves weakens you too much to still take the punches from the other enemies surrounding you. So what do you do? You strap on your armour and possibly go berserk, letting the default hits take down the enemy while you don't suffer HAM costs and minor damage from your enemies. However, against a high damage opponent this choice is gone. Suddenly your ability to evade is made pointless, because you only evade a few moves, and take 300 damage on the others, incapacitating you within about 7-10 attack rounds. As a Master Swordsman, I have +110 counter-attack, but I get hit at least every other attack round usually. Against rancors, that means I can't do without armour, and therefor can't execute special moves (200 HAM cost is too high to be feasible)
Alternatively:
Remove the block/evade/dodge/counter-attack mods from all melee elite professions and replace them with extra 'defense activity'. You will no longer always dodge as a fencer or always counter-attack as a swordsman, you will perform one of the 4 available counter-moves as a Martial Artist instead, and you will do it more often. Your weapon's speed is an indicator for it's weight, and will influence this ability slightly. Armour impedes your movement and will influence this ability a LOT. To be as clear as I can: a pikeman won't just block more, he will perform evasions/blocks/dodges/counter-attacks at random instead of blocks, and that he will do more. This single defense mod should be progressing steadily in each box of the elite professions, starting at novice, and it should be the exact same division for each. I think the way max level of pets is divided into CH is a good one for us as well.
Result:
a master martial artist has a choice: either he canwear armour, don't do special moves, don't take a lot of damage in one hit, take a lot of hits. Or he can not wear armour, perform his special moves, take VERY little hits, but take a lot of damage in one hit, therefor he runs the risk of being incapped in3 hits if his defense wavers a moment, whereas the armoured artist does not run this risk.
the ability to have this choice makes sense to me, and will allow you to choose a playstyle rather then be forced into the armour style at high levels.
I speak from a POV where I used to be a Teras Kasi Master, and am currently a Master Brawler and a Master Heavy Swordsman. I suffer damage at least every other attack round from a creature, so my experience tells me this ability is currently not present for a high level martial artist in this game. I've heard other people not getting hit much at all and being able to go without armour, but one can only speak from their own experience.
GTOfire
Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:51 am
#2
I've got some IMHO worthy ideas for the elite melee professions, but not for any one of them in particular. However, there is simply no 'SWG development discussion' forum of any kind, where one can put forward their general ideas, so I'm just going to cross-post them in all the elite prof forums, because I'm looking for input from every one of them.
Part 4: Armour vs defensive actions
The 'problem'.
Once you've trained in martial arts enough to get a feel for what an enemy might try to do to you, you can more easily anticipate an incoming attack and evade or block it. Depending on your style, you might also be proficient in counter-attacking. A well trained artist is very hard to hit, and every move you try can result in them performing a counter-move. Why do you think professional boxing takes as long as it does between good fighters? Because they don't wildly bash away, because they dodge, block and counter-attack and know the other guy does it too, that makes them cautious.
With a full suit of armour on, you cannot dodge incoming attacks very easily, so you must rely on the armour to take the damage.
In-game
Against a single opponent, it might be more efficient to spam special moves then to let default attacks do the work. Against multiple opponents, the HAM cost of making special moves weakens you too much to still take the punches from the other enemies surrounding you. So what do you do? You strap on your armour and possibly go berserk, letting the default hits take down the enemy while you don't suffer HAM costs and minor damage from your enemies. However, against a high damage opponent this choice is gone. Suddenly your ability to evade is made pointless, because you only evade a few moves, and take 300 damage on the others, incapacitating you within about 7-10 attack rounds. As a Master Swordsman, I have +110 counter-attack, but I get hit at least every other attack round usually. Against rancors, that means I can't do without armour, and therefor can't execute special moves (200 HAM cost is too high to be feasible)
Alternatively:
Remove the block/evade/dodge/counter-attack mods from all melee elite professions and replace them with extra 'defense activity'. You will no longer always dodge as a fencer or always counter-attack as a swordsman, you will perform one of the 4 available counter-moves as a Martial Artist instead, and you will do it more often. Your weapon's speed is an indicator for it's weight, and will influence this ability slightly. Armour impedes your movement and will influence this ability a LOT. To be as clear as I can: a pikeman won't just block more, he will perform evasions/blocks/dodges/counter-attacks at random instead of blocks, and that he will do more. This single defense mod should be progressing steadily in each box of the elite professions, starting at novice, and it should be the exact same division for each. I think the way max level of pets is divided into CH is a good one for us as well.
Result:
a master martial artist has a choice: either he canwear armour, don't do special moves, don't take a lot of damage in one hit, take a lot of hits. Or he can not wear armour, perform his special moves, take VERY little hits, but take a lot of damage in one hit, therefor he runs the risk of being incapped in 3 hits if his defense wavers a moment, whereas the armoured artist does not run this risk.
the ability to have this choice makes sense to me, and will allow you to choose a playstyle rather then be forced into the armour style at high levels.
I speak from a POV where I used to be a Teras Kasi Master, and am currently a Master Brawler and a Master Heavy Swordsman. I suffer damage at least every other attack round from a creature, so my experience tells me this ability is currently not present for a high level martial artist in this game. I've heard other people not getting hit much at all and being able to go without armour, but one can only speak from their own experience.
Part 4: Armour vs defensive actions
The 'problem'.
Once you've trained in martial arts enough to get a feel for what an enemy might try to do to you, you can more easily anticipate an incoming attack and evade or block it. Depending on your style, you might also be proficient in counter-attacking. A well trained artist is very hard to hit, and every move you try can result in them performing a counter-move. Why do you think professional boxing takes as long as it does between good fighters? Because they don't wildly bash away, because they dodge, block and counter-attack and know the other guy does it too, that makes them cautious.
With a full suit of armour on, you cannot dodge incoming attacks very easily, so you must rely on the armour to take the damage.
In-game
Against a single opponent, it might be more efficient to spam special moves then to let default attacks do the work. Against multiple opponents, the HAM cost of making special moves weakens you too much to still take the punches from the other enemies surrounding you. So what do you do? You strap on your armour and possibly go berserk, letting the default hits take down the enemy while you don't suffer HAM costs and minor damage from your enemies. However, against a high damage opponent this choice is gone. Suddenly your ability to evade is made pointless, because you only evade a few moves, and take 300 damage on the others, incapacitating you within about 7-10 attack rounds. As a Master Swordsman, I have +110 counter-attack, but I get hit at least every other attack round usually. Against rancors, that means I can't do without armour, and therefor can't execute special moves (200 HAM cost is too high to be feasible)
Alternatively:
Remove the block/evade/dodge/counter-attack mods from all melee elite professions and replace them with extra 'defense activity'. You will no longer always dodge as a fencer or always counter-attack as a swordsman, you will perform one of the 4 available counter-moves as a Martial Artist instead, and you will do it more often. Your weapon's speed is an indicator for it's weight, and will influence this ability slightly. Armour impedes your movement and will influence this ability a LOT. To be as clear as I can: a pikeman won't just block more, he will perform evasions/blocks/dodges/counter-attacks at random instead of blocks, and that he will do more. This single defense mod should be progressing steadily in each box of the elite professions, starting at novice, and it should be the exact same division for each. I think the way max level of pets is divided into CH is a good one for us as well.
Result:
a master martial artist has a choice: either he canwear armour, don't do special moves, don't take a lot of damage in one hit, take a lot of hits. Or he can not wear armour, perform his special moves, take VERY little hits, but take a lot of damage in one hit, therefor he runs the risk of being incapped in 3 hits if his defense wavers a moment, whereas the armoured artist does not run this risk.
the ability to have this choice makes sense to me, and will allow you to choose a playstyle rather then be forced into the armour style at high levels.
I speak from a POV where I used to be a Teras Kasi Master, and am currently a Master Brawler and a Master Heavy Swordsman. I suffer damage at least every other attack round from a creature, so my experience tells me this ability is currently not present for a high level martial artist in this game. I've heard other people not getting hit much at all and being able to go without armour, but one can only speak from their own experience.
GTOfire
Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:54 am
#3
've got some IMHO worthy ideas for the elite melee professions, but not for any one of them in particular. However, there is simply no 'SWG development discussion' forum of any kind, where one can put forward their general ideas, so I'm just going to cross-post them in all the elite prof forums, because I'm looking for input from every one of them.
Part 4: Armour vs defensive actions
The 'problem'.
Once you've trained in martial arts enough to get a feel for what an enemy might try to do to you, you can more easily anticipate an incoming attack and evade or block it. Depending on your style, you might also be proficient in counter-attacking. A well trained artist is very hard to hit, and every move you try can result in them performing a counter-move. Why do you think professional boxing takes as long as it does between good fighters? Because they don't wildly bash away, because they dodge, block and counter-attack and know the other guy does it too, that makes them cautious.
With a full suit of armour on, you cannot dodge incoming attacks very easily, so you must rely on the armour to take the damage.
In-game
Against a single opponent, it might be more efficient to spam special moves then to let default attacks do the work. Against multiple opponents, the HAM cost of making special moves weakens you too much to still take the punches from the other enemies surrounding you. So what do you do? You strap on your armour and possibly go berserk, letting the default hits take down the enemy while you don't suffer HAM costs and minor damage from your enemies. However, against a high damage opponent this choice is gone. Suddenly your ability to evade is made pointless, because you only evade a few moves, and take 300 damage on the others, incapacitating you within about 7-10 attack rounds. As a Master Swordsman, I have +110 counter-attack, but I get hit at least every other attack round usually. Against rancors, that means I can't do without armour, and therefor can't execute special moves (200 HAM cost is too high to be feasible)
Alternatively:
Remove the block/evade/dodge/counter-attack mods from all melee elite professions and replace them with extra 'defense activity'. You will no longer always dodge as a fencer or always counter-attack as a swordsman, you will perform one of the 4 available counter-moves as a Martial Artist instead, and you will do it more often. Your weapon's speed is an indicator for it's weight, and will influence this ability slightly. Armour impedes your movement and will influence this ability a LOT. To be as clear as I can: a pikeman won't just block more, he will perform evasions/blocks/dodges/counter-attacks at random instead of blocks, and that he will do more. This single defense mod should be progressing steadily in each box of the elite professions, starting at novice, and it should be the exact same division for each. I think the way max level of pets is divided into CH is a good one for us as well.
Result:
a master martial artist has a choice: either he canwear armour, don't do special moves, don't take a lot of damage in one hit, take a lot of hits. Or he can not wear armour, perform his special moves, take VERY little hits, but take a lot of damage in one hit, therefor he runs the risk of being incapped in 3 hits if his defense wavers a moment, whereas the armoured artist does not run this risk.
the ability to have this choice makes sense to me, and will allow you to choose a playstyle rather then be forced into the armour style at high levels.
I speak from a POV where I used to be a Teras Kasi Master, and am currently a Master Brawler and a Master Heavy Swordsman. I suffer damage at least every other attack round from a creature, so my experience tells me this ability is currently not present for a high level martial artist in this game. I've heard other people not getting hit much at all and being able to go without armour, but one can only speak from their own experience
Part 4: Armour vs defensive actions
The 'problem'.
Once you've trained in martial arts enough to get a feel for what an enemy might try to do to you, you can more easily anticipate an incoming attack and evade or block it. Depending on your style, you might also be proficient in counter-attacking. A well trained artist is very hard to hit, and every move you try can result in them performing a counter-move. Why do you think professional boxing takes as long as it does between good fighters? Because they don't wildly bash away, because they dodge, block and counter-attack and know the other guy does it too, that makes them cautious.
With a full suit of armour on, you cannot dodge incoming attacks very easily, so you must rely on the armour to take the damage.
In-game
Against a single opponent, it might be more efficient to spam special moves then to let default attacks do the work. Against multiple opponents, the HAM cost of making special moves weakens you too much to still take the punches from the other enemies surrounding you. So what do you do? You strap on your armour and possibly go berserk, letting the default hits take down the enemy while you don't suffer HAM costs and minor damage from your enemies. However, against a high damage opponent this choice is gone. Suddenly your ability to evade is made pointless, because you only evade a few moves, and take 300 damage on the others, incapacitating you within about 7-10 attack rounds. As a Master Swordsman, I have +110 counter-attack, but I get hit at least every other attack round usually. Against rancors, that means I can't do without armour, and therefor can't execute special moves (200 HAM cost is too high to be feasible)
Alternatively:
Remove the block/evade/dodge/counter-attack mods from all melee elite professions and replace them with extra 'defense activity'. You will no longer always dodge as a fencer or always counter-attack as a swordsman, you will perform one of the 4 available counter-moves as a Martial Artist instead, and you will do it more often. Your weapon's speed is an indicator for it's weight, and will influence this ability slightly. Armour impedes your movement and will influence this ability a LOT. To be as clear as I can: a pikeman won't just block more, he will perform evasions/blocks/dodges/counter-attacks at random instead of blocks, and that he will do more. This single defense mod should be progressing steadily in each box of the elite professions, starting at novice, and it should be the exact same division for each. I think the way max level of pets is divided into CH is a good one for us as well.
Result:
a master martial artist has a choice: either he canwear armour, don't do special moves, don't take a lot of damage in one hit, take a lot of hits. Or he can not wear armour, perform his special moves, take VERY little hits, but take a lot of damage in one hit, therefor he runs the risk of being incapped in 3 hits if his defense wavers a moment, whereas the armoured artist does not run this risk.
the ability to have this choice makes sense to me, and will allow you to choose a playstyle rather then be forced into the armour style at high levels.
I speak from a POV where I used to be a Teras Kasi Master, and am currently a Master Brawler and a Master Heavy Swordsman. I suffer damage at least every other attack round from a creature, so my experience tells me this ability is currently not present for a high level martial artist in this game. I've heard other people not getting hit much at all and being able to go without armour, but one can only speak from their own experience
GTOfire
Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:56 am
#4
've got some IMHO worthy ideas for the elite melee professions, but not for any one of them in particular. However, there is simply no 'SWG development discussion' forum of any kind, where one can put forward their general ideas, so I'm just going to cross-post them in all the elite prof forums, because I'm looking for input from every one of them.
Part 4: Armour vs defensive actions
The 'problem'.
Once you've trained in martial arts enough to get a feel for what an enemy might try to do to you, you can more easily anticipate an incoming attack and evade or block it. Depending on your style, you might also be proficient in counter-attacking. A well trained artist is very hard to hit, and every move you try can result in them performing a counter-move. Why do you think professional boxing takes as long as it does between good fighters? Because they don't wildly bash away, because they dodge, block and counter-attack and know the other guy does it too, that makes them cautious.
With a full suit of armour on, you cannot dodge incoming attacks very easily, so you must rely on the armour to take the damage.
In-game
Against a single opponent, it might be more efficient to spam special moves then to let default attacks do the work. Against multiple opponents, the HAM cost of making special moves weakens you too much to still take the punches from the other enemies surrounding you. So what do you do? You strap on your armour and possibly go berserk, letting the default hits take down the enemy while you don't suffer HAM costs and minor damage from your enemies. However, against a high damage opponent this choice is gone. Suddenly your ability to evade is made pointless, because you only evade a few moves, and take 300 damage on the others, incapacitating you within about 7-10 attack rounds. As a Master Swordsman, I have +110 counter-attack, but I get hit at least every other attack round usually. Against rancors, that means I can't do without armour, and therefor can't execute special moves (200 HAM cost is too high to be feasible)
Alternatively:
Remove the block/evade/dodge/counter-attack mods from all melee elite professions and replace them with extra 'defense activity'. You will no longer always dodge as a fencer or always counter-attack as a swordsman, you will perform one of the 4 available counter-moves as a Martial Artist instead, and you will do it more often. Your weapon's speed is an indicator for it's weight, and will influence this ability slightly. Armour impedes your movement and will influence this ability a LOT. To be as clear as I can: a pikeman won't just block more, he will perform evasions/blocks/dodges/counter-attacks at random instead of blocks, and that he will do more. This single defense mod should be progressing steadily in each box of the elite professions, starting at novice, and it should be the exact same division for each. I think the way max level of pets is divided into CH is a good one for us as well
Result:
a master martial artist has a choice: either he canwear armour, don't do special moves, don't take a lot of damage in one hit, take a lot of hits. Or he can not wear armour, perform his special moves, take VERY little hits, but take a lot of damage in one hit, therefor he runs the risk of being incapped in 3 hits if his defense wavers a moment, whereas the armoured artist does not run this risk.
the ability to have this choice makes sense to me, and will allow you to choose a playstyle rather then be forced into the armour style at high levels.
I speak from a POV where I used to be a Teras Kasi Master, and am currently a Master Brawler and a Master Heavy Swordsman. I suffer damage at least every other attack round from a creature, so my experience tells me this ability is currently not present for a high level martial artist in this game. I've heard other people not getting hit much at all and being able to go without armour, but one can only speak from their own experience.
Part 4: Armour vs defensive actions
The 'problem'.
Once you've trained in martial arts enough to get a feel for what an enemy might try to do to you, you can more easily anticipate an incoming attack and evade or block it. Depending on your style, you might also be proficient in counter-attacking. A well trained artist is very hard to hit, and every move you try can result in them performing a counter-move. Why do you think professional boxing takes as long as it does between good fighters? Because they don't wildly bash away, because they dodge, block and counter-attack and know the other guy does it too, that makes them cautious.
With a full suit of armour on, you cannot dodge incoming attacks very easily, so you must rely on the armour to take the damage.
In-game
Against a single opponent, it might be more efficient to spam special moves then to let default attacks do the work. Against multiple opponents, the HAM cost of making special moves weakens you too much to still take the punches from the other enemies surrounding you. So what do you do? You strap on your armour and possibly go berserk, letting the default hits take down the enemy while you don't suffer HAM costs and minor damage from your enemies. However, against a high damage opponent this choice is gone. Suddenly your ability to evade is made pointless, because you only evade a few moves, and take 300 damage on the others, incapacitating you within about 7-10 attack rounds. As a Master Swordsman, I have +110 counter-attack, but I get hit at least every other attack round usually. Against rancors, that means I can't do without armour, and therefor can't execute special moves (200 HAM cost is too high to be feasible)
Alternatively:
Remove the block/evade/dodge/counter-attack mods from all melee elite professions and replace them with extra 'defense activity'. You will no longer always dodge as a fencer or always counter-attack as a swordsman, you will perform one of the 4 available counter-moves as a Martial Artist instead, and you will do it more often. Your weapon's speed is an indicator for it's weight, and will influence this ability slightly. Armour impedes your movement and will influence this ability a LOT. To be as clear as I can: a pikeman won't just block more, he will perform evasions/blocks/dodges/counter-attacks at random instead of blocks, and that he will do more. This single defense mod should be progressing steadily in each box of the elite professions, starting at novice, and it should be the exact same division for each. I think the way max level of pets is divided into CH is a good one for us as well
Result:
a master martial artist has a choice: either he canwear armour, don't do special moves, don't take a lot of damage in one hit, take a lot of hits. Or he can not wear armour, perform his special moves, take VERY little hits, but take a lot of damage in one hit, therefor he runs the risk of being incapped in 3 hits if his defense wavers a moment, whereas the armoured artist does not run this risk.
the ability to have this choice makes sense to me, and will allow you to choose a playstyle rather then be forced into the armour style at high levels.
I speak from a POV where I used to be a Teras Kasi Master, and am currently a Master Brawler and a Master Heavy Swordsman. I suffer damage at least every other attack round from a creature, so my experience tells me this ability is currently not present for a high level martial artist in this game. I've heard other people not getting hit much at all and being able to go without armour, but one can only speak from their own experience.
krazilac
Fri Mar 05, 2004 8:52 am
#5
___________
This single defense mod should be progressing steadily in each box of the elite professions, starting at novice, and it should be the exact same division for each. I think the way max level of pets is divided into CH is a good one for us as well.
___________
this I dont like. we do less damage and dodge more. you do more damage and evade less.
If you make it an across the board evade mod, then whats the point of seperate melee professions?
Plus your title says it all "heavy" swordsman...you should not be able to manuver as well as someone with
a weapon thats much lighter.
for me club.
GTOfire
Fri Mar 05, 2004 9:56 am
#6
the specifics are of course not set in stone, as Im not a developer I don't know exactly what is balanced. However I did foresee the part you mentioned in weapon weight. I would ideally like to see an additional stat on melee weapons 'weight', but to start with, weapon speed is a good indicator. A power hammer with speed 5.9 will influence your evade modifier in a negative way, because of the very thing you mention, it's heavy. You guys with your light and fast weapons will not suffer the same penalty a swordsman or a pikeman does. So the evade less more damage - evade more less damage thing is still active and the same.
atone48732
Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:48 am
#7
Exactly why I refuse to ever use armor
it just loses the martial artsly feel for me seeing TKA's running around in composite armor or whatever
were martial artists guys we are quick and dodge and block attacks we dont wear heavy armor and stand and hit each other.
well sorry for the rant
just had to get the armor thing off my chest
great post though
GTOfire
Sat Mar 06, 2004 2:41 am
#8
HAM costs are a start, but the special moves are not the objective of my idea, the defense mods are. armour should make you take hits that do little damage, no armour should make you free to escape hits that do their normal damage. the HAM system in place to stop you from spamming specials (with or without armour in the Swordsman case) IMO support this idea already, making it tougher to defend yourself with stun or KD or whatnot if you have armour on.
OutbackWookiee
Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:13 pm
#9
Armor already has this feature built in. Its called HAM costs.
The poorer the armor, the less HAM it costs you. The better the armor, the more HAM it costs you.
The idea being that wearing good armor makes you less able to spam your special moves which is what I believe you were going for.
As for the the block issue, I don't think its such a bad idea. That way our block (which doesn't work) would be replaced with dodge and/or counter-attack (which do).
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