Pikeman Archive
Thread: Input, please
Page 1 of 1
Gunman21
Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:37 pm
#1
Would like you all to review this draft and let me know of anything that needs to be added/changed/re-worded. I wrote it in word so it doesn't look pretty but will format later. Thanks 
There are 3 areas in which pikeman needs improvement. I have broken them down as such:
·Pre-reqs (Stacking)
·Modifiers
oMelee/Ranged
oWeapon Defense
·Specials
oSingle Target
oDuration
oBroken Specials
·Modifiers
oMelee/Ranged
oWeapon Defense
·Specials
oSingle Target
oDuration
oBroken Specials
We’ll start with the pre-reqs.
In order for pikeman to dabble in 3 melee professions, they must invest in 4444 brawler. Pikeman is the only melee profession subject to this skill point sink, and it harms the ability for dabblers to effectively take up pikeman and have a good template.
Pikeman is up against a very stackable combination between TKA/Swords/Fencer in which the template will include the accuracy tree from each profession, and the stacking of advanced armor break, improved critical strike, and improved center of being. (Template is master swords/0403TKA/0004Fencer/4004doc).
The combination of accuracy + specials + the ability to pick up excellent healing and self buffing make this an extremely high end template that no pikeman template is able to match due to the sp investment. The dabbling ability of swords/fencer/tka due to the pre-requisite setup is vastly superior to pikeman, leaving us the odd melee profession out.
Compounding the problem: CL. If I was to invest in 3 melee professions as a pikeman, I could do so and still have decent healing, but without some of the bells and whistles which makes the tka/fencer/swords template special. This template would be Master Pike, Master Brawler, 0100 TKA, 0034 Swordsman, 2002 Doc. However, because of the extra skill point sink into the brawler tree, my CL would only be lvl 71, which further prohibits dabbling.
Modifiers
This ties directly into the tanking game and explains exactly why tanks do not feel like they can survive more than non-tanks.
Pikeman: 85 melee defense, 55 ranged defense, 65 polearm defense
Swordsman: 85 melee defense, 60 ranged defense, 50 2h defense
Swordsman: 85 melee defense, 60 ranged defense, 50 2h defense
The above tells us that swordsman are equal in melee defense, better in ranged defense, and only slightly weaker in weapon defense. ***however*** 2h defense tapes drop that allow swords to get +25 2h defense, making them better than pikeman in 2 of the 3 categories, and equal in the third. Pikeman weapon defense tapes do not drop. Pikeman defensive modifiers need to clearly be better by a significant amount in order to fell like and be a better tank.
Specials
While our specials have the potential to add to our tanking ability, they are very difficult to use, apply, and manage, meaning only the best micro-managers will be able to succeed as a pikeman.
These specials, intimidate/warcry, are intended to enhance the tanking ability of pikeman. Warcry is a cone which is also inneffective in being applied to a group of mobs/players which are standing all around you, and intimidate is a**single target attack** which means a pikeman will be ineffective when fighting groups of mobs/opponents. Nearly every lair, dungeon, or pvp outing will see the tank or tanks faced with multiple mobs which puts the pikeman at a severe disadvantage.
The duration on warcry is very short as well, adding to the need to micro-manage. Advanced Thyroid Rupture, which has the exact same effect as warcry, has a 2 minute duration rather than warcry’s 20 second duration.
The only way to make Pikeman rely on their specials to tank is to make Intimidate and Warcry area attacks with a 5m range. This will ensure that the only players/mobs affected by these specials are within striking distance of the pikeman and give the pikeman an enhanced tanking ability.
We have a broken special, stun, which should be a staple special to pikeman. This special needs to be fixed to help the profession.
Message Edited by Gunman21 on 08-25-2005 07:37 PM
Message Edited by Gunman21 on 08-26-2005 12:41 AM
WNxDoobie
Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:42 pm
#2
you just about covered all that i have problems with especially the fact with the thyroid rupture...ALSO i dont like the fact that people can stack thyroid rupture w/ warcry, because since i cant stack buffs, why should they be allowed to stack debuffs...and again, vibro motors are making our vibro weapons turn out terrible,
Acaila
Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:53 pm
#4
Gunman21 wrote:
In order for pikeman to dabble in 3 melee professions, they must invest in 4444 brawler. Pikeman is the only melee profession subject to this skill point sink, and it harms the ability for dabblers to effectively take up pikeman and have a good template.
This is not because the Pikeman prerequisites are wrong, but because no other melee class requires the Brawler Polearm tree as a prerequisite. That is also the reason why a triple mastery of TK/Swordsman/Fencer is still possible, which should be fixed for balance. This is not a problem of Pikeman because our prerequisites are as they should, it's just that the other classes have an unfair advantage.
Gunman21 wrote:
Pikeman: 85 melee defense, 55 ranged defense, 65 polearm defense
Swordsman: 85 melee defense, 60 ranged defense, 50 2h defense
The above tells us that swordsman are equal in melee defense, better in ranged defense, and only slightly weaker in weapon defense. ***however*** 2h defense tapes drop that allow swords to get +25 2h defense, making them better than pikeman in 2 of the 3 categories, and equal in the third. Pikeman weapon defense tapes do not drop. Pikeman defensive modifiers need to clearly be better by a significant amount in order to fell like and be a better tank.
I agree with this. The Polearm Defense tapes not dropping gives us a serious lack of defense. All other Defense tapes are dropping so I don't see why it's so hard to give us ours as well. However given the fact that so many tapes still have mods on them that are broken tells me the entire CA/AA system needs to get a good look.
Gunman21 wrote:
The only way to make Pikeman rely on their specials to tank is to make Intimidate and Warcry area attacks with a 5m range. This will ensure that the only players/mobs affected by these specials are within striking distance of the pikeman and give the pikeman an enhanced tanking ability.
We have a broken special, stun, which should be a staple special to pikeman. This special needs to be fixed to help the profession.
Warcy currently being a 65m range Cone AoE hurts our tanking ability more than it helps since it often draws unwanted agro. So I agree that both Warcy and Intimidate should be 5m radius AoE, it would simply make more sense based on what their effect.
Also, Intimidate's stickiness needs to be looks at also, it misses far too much. Warcy should be made not to stack with other debuffs of the same kind (Low Blow, Thyroid Rupture) for balance.
Stunning Blow however works just fine in my opinion. It currently reduces the opponent's damage by 10% which fits in line with our class's role of Opponent Modifying. Maybe it would be nice if it did what it once should have, namely reduce the opponent's action regen, but damage reduction also fits with us.
ZagaSabin
Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:08 am
#5
Gunman21 wrote:
We’ll start with the pre-reqs.
In order for pikeman to dabble in 3 melee professions, they must invest in 4444 brawler. Pikeman is the only melee profession subject to this skill point sink, and it harms the ability for dabblers to effectively take up pikeman and have a good template.
Pikeman is up against a very stackable combination between TKA/Swords/Fencer in which the template will include the accuracy tree from each profession, and the stacking of advanced armor break, improved critical strike, and improved center of being. (Template is master swords/0403TKA/0004Fencer/4004doc).
The combination of accuracy + specials + the ability to pick up excellent healing and self buffing make this an extremely high end template that no pikeman template is able to match due to the sp investment. The dabbling ability of swords/fencer/tka due to the pre-requisite setup is vastly superior to pikeman, leaving us the odd melee profession out.
Compounding the problem: CL. If I was to invest in 3 melee professions as a pikeman, I could do so and still have decent healing, but without some of the bells and whistles which makes the tka/fencer/swords template special. This template would be Master Pike, Master Brawler, 0100 TKA, 0034 Swordsman, 2002 Doc. However, because of the extra skill point sink into the brawler tree, my CL would only be lvl 71, which further prohibits dabbling.
Aid been looking over this now for about 30min to try and figure out a solution that would be fair to all 4 professions. The only way to make it fair is to make Fencer, Pike and Swords have the same prereq. I think the best option for this would be unarmed.
Leaving Tk with the same prereq's, Unarmed and 2h.
The only real loser in this skill point allocation would be someone wanting to go with a Fencer / Pikeman template. They would be losing out on the low level armor break.
One way to work around no one being a loser would be to put the basic versions of cob and armorbreak in the novice brawler box. These two basics skills are not game breaking in there brawler formand could be justified being put there, unlike precu intimidate and warcry.
And to add on what to put in the tier 4 box on 2h, I think some sort of berzerk would be nice. Swordsman have always liked the thought of being in rage and doing more damage while lowering there defenses.
Message Edited by ZagaSabin on 08-27-2005 06:16 AM
Wombatula
Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:59 am
#6
Acaila wrote:
Warcy currently being a 65m range Cone AoE hurts our tanking ability more than it helps since it often draws unwanted agro. So I agree that both Warcy and Intimidate should be 5m radius AoE, it would simply make more sense based on what their effect.
Also, Intimidate's stickiness needs to be looks at also, it misses far too much. Warcy should be made not to stack with other debuffs of the same kind (Low Blow, Thyroid Rupture) for balance.
Stunning Blow however works just fine in my opinion. It currently reduces the opponent's damage by 10% which fits in line with our class's role of Opponent Modifying. Maybe it would be nice if it did what it once should have, namely reduce the opponent's action regen, but damage reduction also fits with us.
Warcry is a 30m cone, not 65m
Stunning Blow *DOES NOT* reduce dmg of opponent by 10%, I do not understand where you got those figures.
Acaila
Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:40 am
#7
Sorry, but I'm 100% certain of those figures as I've tested them both extensively. Warcy definately has a 65m range, but I can imagine not many people see this as you have to use it on a target in melee range with another target 65m behind it before you can see this. And since it's quite a tight cone you can miss easily that far out. But it does have that range.
Stunning Blow however is really easy to test, just get hit by a creature, note the damage you take then apply stun and again note the damage you take. I suggest you try it yourself and you'll see that I'm correct.
Stunning Blow however is really easy to test, just get hit by a creature, note the damage you take then apply stun and again note the damage you take. I suggest you try it yourself and you'll see that I'm correct.
Sirfabius
Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:51 pm
#8
I'm MTKA - MPike - 4000 Doc I can take a lot of damage, but my damage output is exptremely low.
You whoul think that a pike could do a really big amount of damage, but since the Post CU pikes dont go higher and 1000 (Damage Sliced Great Kaminoan Staff ) we cant Fight against 1200+ Power Hammers that If you have a buff and a nice Power up gets to 900 MDPS against my 650 MDPS - So definitly the Pike profesion need better weapons, and special attacks.
And another thing, Impale and LegHit, take a lot of action, if I'm fighting a Jedi or something, after 2 minutes of hitting hard, I have to go back to the mele Hit Mele Strike Combo, wich doesnt do any damage, and so, the battle last forever....
Wombatula
Sun Aug 28, 2005 11:21 am
#9
Acaila wrote:
Sorry, but I'm 100% certain of those figures as I've tested them both extensively. Warcy definately has a 65m range, but I can imagine not many people see this as you have to use it on a target in melee range with another target 65m behind it before you can see this. And since it's quite a tight cone you can miss easily that far out. But it does have that range.
Stunning Blow however is really easy to test, just get hit by a creature, note the damage you take then apply stun and again note the damage you take. I suggest you try it yourself and you'll see that I'm correct.
First off, warcry cannot be used unless you are within 20m, and I just spent 30min trying to hit things 50m+ away and it would not work.
STUNNING BLOW DOES NOT DO THAT I TESTED IT!
If it was 10% it would be rather easy to test, no? Well lets take a look at my combat logs against a marauder eh?
Marauder hits you for 259 dmg
Marauder hits you for 259 dmg
Marauder hits you for 259 dmg
*APPLIES STUN VIA STUNNING BLOW*
Marauder hits you for 259 dmg
Marauder hits you for 259 dmg
Marauder hits you for 259 dmg
Seriously man I have no clue at all where you're getting these figures from.
And in the text for stunning blow it says it REDUCES ACTION REGEN.
Nothing to do with reducing their damage.
You sir, are smoking teh crack. Please cease and decist, for the good of pikemen everywhere!
Acaila
Sun Aug 28, 2005 1:15 pm
#10
I'm not lying here or trying to spread false rumors, I have nothing to gain by that. I love this class.
I don't know why you're not seeing any effect, but I just tested it again myself and the damage done by a lvl 81 Gurk went from 279 before Stunning Blow to 251 after as you can see in this screenshot. Which clearly shows a 10% decrease, just like it always has.
Are you also using the Improved version like me? Because that's the only thing I can think of, that the basic vesion is bugged. It's not the first basic version that's broken in the game, I believe either Combat Medic's Thyroid Rupture or Electrolyte Drain is also bugged in that it never sticks, but the Improved version works just fine. If you're also using Improved Stunning Blow like me then I have no idea what's wrong.
And the ability description has always said that thing about action regen, beause that is what it was intended to do ever since the CU, but it never actually did that. Look at the stun icon after you apply it to your opponent and you'll see it says that it reduces their damage and defense.
I don't know why you're not seeing any effect, but I just tested it again myself and the damage done by a lvl 81 Gurk went from 279 before Stunning Blow to 251 after as you can see in this screenshot. Which clearly shows a 10% decrease, just like it always has.
Are you also using the Improved version like me? Because that's the only thing I can think of, that the basic vesion is bugged. It's not the first basic version that's broken in the game, I believe either Combat Medic's Thyroid Rupture or Electrolyte Drain is also bugged in that it never sticks, but the Improved version works just fine. If you're also using Improved Stunning Blow like me then I have no idea what's wrong.
And the ability description has always said that thing about action regen, beause that is what it was intended to do ever since the CU, but it never actually did that. Look at the stun icon after you apply it to your opponent and you'll see it says that it reduces their damage and defense.
Page 1 of 1