Pikeman Archive
Thread: Defenses will not stack after combat passes, says TH
LordPriest
Wed Jan 28, 2004 1:25 pm
#105
The art of being vague is one thing the DEV teamknowhow to do perfectly.
TH, you say the defense stats will not stack with new combat system. Please define which defenses you're referring to...all or one.
Vymordryss
Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:12 pm
#106
Whoa whoa whoa Dev's...
Please think this out carefully. Very carefully.
Right now one of the strongest thing SWG has going for it is the interchangability of the profession system. Just about everyone loves it. No one wants to be locked into a stangant class system - trust me on this.
Sure you can balance it better, spread the mods out and what not to an acceptable level. However if someone spends 250 skillpoints totally devoting themselves to combat they SHOULD have a nice edge over someone who has spent 92 skillpoints on combat and has a nice crafting business on the side.
If you wipe out defense stacking your going to kill the diveristy of PvP. If thats done it's pretty simple what everyone will be. A) Doc + Elite, B) CM+ Elite and thats it. Period, we will be a bunch of lame clones with no diveristy. And once you are boored with the above two, you have hit a dead end in options.
Currently there is a VAST amount of viable PvP options. Yes, some are out of wack, but not because of defense stacking. Don't forget offense stacks too.
I have done extensive testing and I assure you TKM's don't have trouble hitting the most defensive chracters. Likewise BH/Carbinder "offense stackers" dont miss hardly ever either. This was tested against my HDT with 210 Ranged Defense.
Furthermore the new addition to effective but counterable defenses adds another dimension to the PvP world. You no longer just need min/max damage. You now have a use for weapons with accuracy built into them, or pure accuracy with accuracy powerups. You no longer just spam your most powerful attack because it always hits no matter what, you may have to soften the target up by negating thier secondary defenses with intimidate (which will make even a single elite master able to hit very frequently against block/dodge/counterattack). Battles also last longer and are more enjoyable awarding people truly dedicated to PvP the edge they deserve.
Lets face it here. The only ones that are negativly effected by defense stacking are those not compleetly comitted to PvP as frontline fighters in the GCW. Other blends such as Doc + Elite or what not are support roles and I personaly don't see a problem with them actually a suport role instead of being on a level playing field with pure combat builds.
Currently there is a place for front line fighters which would be the HDTs. There is a place for offensive stackers. There is a place for support docs and CM's. There is a place for entertainers. And off battlefield there is a need for crafters.
If you take away the new dimention, we are back to "no one ever misses". So if you think a rifleman kills you fast now, just wait till they hit you everytime with a rifle thats significantly more damaging because they can totally gear it towards pure damage.
Furthermore there would be little reson or benifit to stack multiple combat profesions if you got no benifit from it.
BH/pistol/carb would also loose value because thier extreamly valuable uncanny accuracy no longer matters. Everyone just hits.
The GCW would no longer be fought by compleet combat builds, but everyone would be "support classes" as pure combat builds become obsoleet.
Weaponsmiths loose an angle of developing new blends of accuracy and damage.
Artisans no longer have the need to develop new sets of powerups.
The GWC goes back to a DSP spam fest.
----
Right now more than any other time in the games PvP history is combat interesting, tactical and long lived.
---------
Please oh please remember this game is about customisation and flexability with your character. Revise all you want, balance all you want, but what ever you do please dear gods above do not turn this into a run of the mill class based game.
Please think this out carefully. Very carefully.
Right now one of the strongest thing SWG has going for it is the interchangability of the profession system. Just about everyone loves it. No one wants to be locked into a stangant class system - trust me on this.
Sure you can balance it better, spread the mods out and what not to an acceptable level. However if someone spends 250 skillpoints totally devoting themselves to combat they SHOULD have a nice edge over someone who has spent 92 skillpoints on combat and has a nice crafting business on the side.
If you wipe out defense stacking your going to kill the diveristy of PvP. If thats done it's pretty simple what everyone will be. A) Doc + Elite, B) CM+ Elite and thats it. Period, we will be a bunch of lame clones with no diveristy. And once you are boored with the above two, you have hit a dead end in options.
Currently there is a VAST amount of viable PvP options. Yes, some are out of wack, but not because of defense stacking. Don't forget offense stacks too.
I have done extensive testing and I assure you TKM's don't have trouble hitting the most defensive chracters. Likewise BH/Carbinder "offense stackers" dont miss hardly ever either. This was tested against my HDT with 210 Ranged Defense.
Furthermore the new addition to effective but counterable defenses adds another dimension to the PvP world. You no longer just need min/max damage. You now have a use for weapons with accuracy built into them, or pure accuracy with accuracy powerups. You no longer just spam your most powerful attack because it always hits no matter what, you may have to soften the target up by negating thier secondary defenses with intimidate (which will make even a single elite master able to hit very frequently against block/dodge/counterattack). Battles also last longer and are more enjoyable awarding people truly dedicated to PvP the edge they deserve.
Lets face it here. The only ones that are negativly effected by defense stacking are those not compleetly comitted to PvP as frontline fighters in the GCW. Other blends such as Doc + Elite or what not are support roles and I personaly don't see a problem with them actually a suport role instead of being on a level playing field with pure combat builds.
Currently there is a place for front line fighters which would be the HDTs. There is a place for offensive stackers. There is a place for support docs and CM's. There is a place for entertainers. And off battlefield there is a need for crafters.
If you take away the new dimention, we are back to "no one ever misses". So if you think a rifleman kills you fast now, just wait till they hit you everytime with a rifle thats significantly more damaging because they can totally gear it towards pure damage.
Furthermore there would be little reson or benifit to stack multiple combat profesions if you got no benifit from it.
BH/pistol/carb would also loose value because thier extreamly valuable uncanny accuracy no longer matters. Everyone just hits.
The GCW would no longer be fought by compleet combat builds, but everyone would be "support classes" as pure combat builds become obsoleet.
Weaponsmiths loose an angle of developing new blends of accuracy and damage.
Artisans no longer have the need to develop new sets of powerups.
The GWC goes back to a DSP spam fest.
----
Right now more than any other time in the games PvP history is combat interesting, tactical and long lived.
---------
Please oh please remember this game is about customisation and flexability with your character. Revise all you want, balance all you want, but what ever you do please dear gods above do not turn this into a run of the mill class based game.
Stormtrooper187
Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:41 pm
#107
This is a very confusing issue, but I have some things to say that may or may not help...just some experiences that I think are screwy.
I started out after game release as a Marksman, and made Master Marksman early on in the game. I wanted to be a Pistoleer, and so I also became a Master Pistoleer. BUT, a Bount Hunteris still better with a Pistol than a Master Pistoleer. Better bleeds, better shots (mind shots), and seemingly better accuracy than a full Master Pistoleer. Very few classes could beat me as a Master Marksman and Master Pistoleer, but I had very little chance against a BH or a Commando. To me this all just seems wrong.
I know that only two branches of the Master Marksman tree help me as a Pistoleer, the ranged support and the pistol branches, but the Master block gives bonuses as well that other players do not have if the simply run up the pistol and ranged support trees to go to Pistoleer. Also, the Master Pistoleer block gives me bonuses that someone that only wants stopping shot would get (a 0030 or 0040 Pistoleer).
I guess what I am saying is that a Pistoleer has four branches to Master and BH has only the one pistoleer branch, so why does BH have all the best Pistol attacks and so forth? To some degree this also seems to apply to a person that becomes a Master Marksman and a Master Carbineer...the BH still seems to be better with a carbine than a Master Carbineer. Throw in the LLC and the BHis far superior to thePistoleers and Carbineers by comparison...
I was forced to go BH because of this issues, and also because my first holocron said go BH. I had decided to go BH before the holocron, but the holocron sealed the deal. Now I'm a BH and Pistoleer, as I was hoping my Pistoleer skills would enhance my BH pistol skills. Without stacking I suppose that my Master Marksman and my (4040) Pistoleer skills will be meaningless (?).
ManInBigBoots
Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:21 am
#108
Well, looks lik diizy+kd's will be dominating once again. But correct me if I'm wrong, ALL defense mods aren't stacking? So no more +70 to Def. vs. KD and such? And Melee and Ranged Defense are getting worked on too (which had to be done). Sigh... maybe it's time for me to go BH again.
DarthRoscoe
Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:38 pm
#109
Dunno, I do think they need to do something, yet not too much. I think they need to do enough to where I can hit one of those super dodge templates (and people say templates aren't cookie cutter).
Zalana
Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:00 am
#110
The templates aren't as godly as you all make out, (of course we as pikeman have a hellish time but then our weapons suck) and it rewards mixing. Right this minute the most powerful combo is not some huge d-stacking template, but rifle/cm.... Poison/Disease don't use the same to hit system and reliebly hit everyone.
Removing d-stacking is a mistake. And when they do my choice iseither rifle/doc or rifle/cm,the only way I can use pike now in pvp is because I have 2 other melee defense trees and can last long enough toe to toe with otherpvp builds.
CLab2021
Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:51 pm
#111
I doubtTJ will return to this thread.
Anyway, I am not a template guy, I am a Pikeman. Making defense's not stack is border line retarded, as many others have said.
So now the only benifit for someone that has all SP invested in combat, v someone who has one Combat, Combat Elite, or a Hybrid pikeman *rolls eyes*, and then crafting or healing profession is what?..
I can now use the gun they made to kill them?...
Othes have already articulated how much this really will ruin the point of the SWG Profession 'mix-n-match' as you put it. Yo know your post are starting to make less and less since...
Just read what others wrote open your eyes...actually anwswer questoins without the crap ass anwser you normally give..
Message Edited by CLab2021 on 02-14-2004 03:51 AM
Article57
Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:56 pm
#112
removing mod stacking . . . DUMB.
maybe the entire problem isnt mod stacking, but the fact that characters have 2 "stacked" skills that can evade a hit.
first, your Ranged/Melee Defense mod is checked. . .
then, your Dodge/Block/Counterattack is checked.
imo, they should leave stacking and do something to spice up Dodge/Block/Counterattack so theyre no just "attack evaded, carry on." /yawn
Block: 50% reduction from a Blocked hit --- what they got goin on now . . . maybe adjust percentage. not my problem.
Counterattack: an immediate, free, attack on the aggressor from a Countered hit --- lets see some counterattacks already . . . ZAP! ow you **edit**! POW!!!!
Dodge: attack completely avoided, but defender loses1 attack cycleand gains a Ranged/Melee Defense boost until that cycle expires --- fighters that rely on agility to survive dance and juke around
avoiding harm until an opening presents itself
Matsushida
Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:58 am
#113
How can you possibly say that removing Defense stacking is a bad thing?
I mean... you can always use several templates , and if you DO put more points into combat skills , you will always have some kind of advantage!
For ex: If I'm a Master Rifleman / Master Pikeman , I will certainly be a LOT better in PvPthana Pikeman / Ranger (that's what I currently am)! Why? Not because of the added defenses , but because I have the ability to fight very well from both , short and long range , and I can also easily aim for both , mind and action pools. So basically... and considering that offensive stacks will still stack , I imagine that "pure combat" templates will still be valid , and will STILL have an advantage in combat , I mean... 2 combat professionsare always better than one!
I currently have 3 characters, 1 TKA/Ranger , 1 BH and 1 Pikeman/Ranger , and I can say one thing for sure... DEFENSE STACKING MUST GO! I'm sick and tired of going to Anchorhead with my BH , and seeing all these "Defense Stacking Templates" around , killing every single rebel and not getting hit ONCE (including me) , and I do mean it... NO ONE can hit them! And even if they do hit them once or twice , by some miracle... they're already buffed! 
Things MUST be changed , and FAST! As I've said before... don't worry , if you have 2 combat professions , you will always have some sort of advantage and of course , the ability to use several weapons and added abilities are just twoof them!
Matsushida
Sun Feb 15, 2004 5:19 am
#114
Sorry about posting again , but I just wanted to say (isn't there an edit button?):
Don'twaste too much of your time readingwhat I have to say because honestly , I'm growing tired of all this cr*p! I've already ordered FFXI , and will drop SWG as soon as it gets here.
Not that SWG doesn't have the potential to be one of the best MMORPGs ever , it DOES! But the kind of service presented with such an expensive product... I mean , it's simply ridiculous!
Might as well spend my money somewhere else... 
Go Pikemen!
OutbackWookiee
Sun Feb 15, 2004 5:34 am
#115
Matsushida wrote:
How can you possibly say that removing Defense stacking is a bad thing?
I currently have 3 characters, 1 TKA/Ranger , 1 BH and 1 Pikeman/Ranger
How can I say removing stacking is a bad thing? Quite easy. With the skill points that I've spent on combat I should be (am)able tokick your ranger characters ass. I'm sorry for your BH character, you guys need some love in the defense area.
If you want to be able to pvp with much success you shouldn't be able to dedicate vast skill points to non-combat professions like ranger.
It's just flat out obscene to suggest that a person who has dedicated 250 pts into a combat template should not be better than one who has only sunk 61 (or whatever the lowest number to gain an elite profession is).
Also, I've lots of stacked defenses and I get hit, a lot. Its not the stacked defenses so much as the stacked dodge/block/counterattack that is causing the problems and as many have stated those should be removed.
If you want to pvp, then you should have to make the commitment to making your character competitive. If you want to be an artisan, then you should be prepared to die like one.
wiskerbizkit
Sun Feb 15, 2004 6:06 am
#116
ok th a no bs assessment. what are we going to have to sacrifice to get fixed?
Matsushida
Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:47 am
#117
Legwand , you didn't read beyond the first line of my first post did you?
You're trying to say that , in my opinion , people with pure combat templates shouldn't have some kind of advantage , well , I said the opposite... you should have , and right now you DO have advantage in PvP! (you might kick the ass of my Ranger character in PvP , but I'm sure you aren't 20% as good in PvE... and well , for me , PvE is far more important , since I'm not really into Player Vs Player that much!)
One thing I did say, and I will say it again , you SHOULD have advantages , but defense stacking , as it is today is WRONG , no one should be nearly unhitable in Ranged or Melee combat , and I'm sure that was not the DEVs intention in the first place, of course , as in all games... some learn to take advantage of the game mechanics to get some kind of advantage! (this is not a bug , only a normal human mistake , so be FREE to use it , but know one thing... as the mistake it was , it shouldand WILL be corrected!)
Multiple professions templates = great! I always have more than 1 type of profession myself!
Dabbling on other professions just to get their stacked defensive stats = Wrong! Is that REALLY what SWG is all about?! I don't think so... yeah... these are the days when BHs need to choose one of their weapons and dabble either on carbineer or pistoleer to be , at least, somewhat viable in combat! Please... 