Pikeman Archive
Thread: Well, look what came up...
Equilibruim wrote:
I really hope that they dont throw in that speed cap... that would be utterly gay...
I hate to be the PC police but can this be the one board where we don't have to call things 'gay'?
Just to mention - the whole dice thing was a joke - even if 5 sides were painted 1 the odds would be the same . . . .
That being said -
I would hope (this is a big hope btw) that IF a speed cap were implemented, we'd get another +50 or something in the accuracy department as well as a %50 (maybe a little less) HAM reduction.
Some of the pikes on my server seem to do one of two things
1) High Damage, High Ham costs
2) OK Damage, Medium Ham costs
I'm not one to complain about HAM costs right off the bat mind you, I've done other professions where the contest is to outdamage yourself vs. the enemy. I hate to see the pike in this sort of position as other melee professions are not (in my opinion). With the type of capping in place that was suggested by the time you got a chance to get the move off you wouldn't have enough points to take it. Just an opinion of course...
Do your dps calculations take into effect armor piercing and resists?
There is a huge difference between 500 points of AP1 kinetic damage and 500 points of AP2 kinetic damage and 500 points of AP1 electricty damage.
I see "our dps sucks blah blah blah" and I tune out because with every calculation I see they don't take these things into effect.
There was a father/son duo around here not too long ago. The father was a pikeman the son a TKA. On high end mobs the dad said his son couldn't keep up due to the AP1 of VK's and the AP2 and increased damage of the LVA.
I disagree about all nerfs being done for PvP.
There has only been 1 combat profession centered nerf in the game. Riflemen had the T21 nerfed. Think about it I mean REALLY think about it. How many professions have truly had a nerf applied just to them. All of the "nerfs" in this game have been game wide and have been for the sake of PvE balance.
Knockdowns were game wide and it wasn't because of PvP it was because people were soloing Krayt's without a scratch. The scatter and FWG5 were fixed because they were never intended to have a power blaster handler. Creature handlers were rebalanced to keep novice CH's from walking around with 3 rancors in PvE and then rebalanced again because of all the 3-2-0-0 graul mauler handlers out there. Again this was done from a PvE perspective not PvP.
If anything were going to be nerfed solely for PvP then eyeshot would have been moved to master long ago. I guess you could make a case for DOT's no longer incapping as a "nerf" for PvP's sake but you'd have to convince me. I would like to think that it's because of people using flame cone on a group of rancors then just letting them die.
If you take time and really think about the nerfs you would realize that the devs have for the most part ignored whiners and done things to balance out PvE and that there have been only a few true nerfs done in the game.
Quick name 3 nerfs besides the few I've mentioned above? 
I hate to be the PC police but can this be the one board where we don't have to call things 'gay'?
Agreed. I'm not actively playing a pikeman (building up an alt in my "spare" time) but I still enjoy coming here because it's the ONLY forum in the game where everyone is civil. . .although I cause trouble every now and then. 
It's for this reason I hope pikeman NEVER become a FOTM. Very powerful in PvE only means the PvP l337 d00dz will never come here.
Personally I'm not big on PvP. Most of the game's population isn't. A lot of the FORUM's populationis but most of the GAME's population is not. I don't care about PvP at all so I don't really complain about "PIEKMAN SUKS IN PVP DEVS PLZ FIX US". Also for the record there are plenty of mature pikeman around here who can drop some "pwnage" on their own as well.
Please leave this stuff out of the pikeman forums.
atimes wrote:Do your dps calculations take into effect armor piercing and resists?
Sure, dps should take into account AP and resists, but in general, we have poor dps because of speed and accuracy.
Against an AR2 target, if you deal out 0.75X points of AP1 damage more than 25% faster than X points of AP2, you're already ahead in terms of dps. Factor in the large difference in accuracy (both weapon range mods and class skill, translated to a to-hit bonus) and you raise the dps for the VKs even more.
Of course, using an electricity damage weapon vs. kinetic on a target with 100% kinetic resists and electricty vulnerability will give different dps reading, but it's not general. On average, due to speed and accuracy, we have weaker dps than TKA. Against larger, more heavily armored (anything AP2 or above) targets, yes, it is better to have the AP2, absolutely, but AP1 to AP1, the TKM with VKs wins the dps competition.
antares
master pikeman
That's sorta my point. Against an unarmored or lightly armored mob a TKA will be able to dish out damage faster but that doesn't mean you can't kill the thing too.
Pikeman is a damage dealing profession. Once you get into the heavy hitters in the game (the high end mobs) TKA sorta loses it's luster. "Hey guys let's take down that giant peko peko. . . oh wait sorry TKA's and fencers it's AR3 and 100% resistant to kinetic so you can't contribute, let's go pikemen and swordsmen"
That's why I tend to ignore DPS. So a TKA can kill an opponent with light armor or no armor faster than me. Big deal and so what. I can still kill it too it'll just take me a little longer. Group xp is so borked now that for intense grinding everyone always does it solo so a TKA kill stealing doesn't bother me because I don't group.
Now when it comes to that rancor with medium armor and 50% kinetic resists the pikeman will kill it faster than the TKA.
I don't really care about dps because anything I can kill as a master TKA I can also kill as a master pikeman. To me pikeman is fun. It was fun while I played it and even though I'm not ACTIVELYa pikeman now (I had master TKA and just got kinda burnt out with all the grinding so pikeman is on hold while I just enjoy master TKA) I enjoyed it very much.
That's the bottom line for me. Pikeman is FUN and I don't really care about dps. It's all just a bunch of blah blah blah to me.
atimes wrote:That's sorta my point. Against an unarmored or lightly armored mob a TKA will be able to dish out damage faster but that doesn't mean you can't kill the thing too.
Good point. I don't often care about dps myself...but in such things as pvp, it's all about dps, and there is no AR2; pve: different story, absolutely right.
If only pikeman was the damage dealer. We're more of a damage dealer than TKA or fencer, only thanks to the AP2 LVA, but very inferior to heavy swordsman. So we're stuck (currently, we'll see what happens with the much-touted combat passes) as being low on the advantages, high on the disadvantages.
Still, there is no class I'd rather play.
antares
master pikeman
Isn't the RIS supposed to be med armor?
DPS can vary but also consider specials are used at a much higher rate with TK also, and the fact a TK will almost never miss, then we are back at square one.
RIS is standard, light armor, and the stats tend to shift like tantel.
antares
master pikeman
This probably deserves it's own post. I might copy it to a new one at some point, maybe if I expand it. I think we need to double check our ph3 to see if it is really indeed 3.0x damage. I've re-done the numbers several times and if the damage mods are what they are, this looks disturbingly correct. The 3.0x multiplier we're stuck at is killing us. Please tell me if I did something wrong.
Setup:
Target with 0 kinetic resists
VKs with 35% damage slice (VKd)
LVA with 35% damage slice (LVAd)
LVA with 35% speed slice (LVAs)
VKd = 55-196 @ 2.2; +250 damage = 305-446, 375.5 avg
LVAd = 110-500 @ 4.4 = 305 avg
LVAs = 110-370 @ 3.2 = 240 avg
uh3 = 4.0x, 2.5x delay, 115 speed skill bonus (Note: this speed bonus makes all TKA specials hit the cap of 1.0s)
ph3 = 3.0x, 2.5x delay, 75 speed skill bonus
std melee multiplier = 1.86
DPS values against ARx, VKd vs. LVAd vs. LVAs
AR0:
VKd(avg) = (1.86 * 4.0 * 375.5 * 1.25) / 1 = 3492
VKd(max) = (1.86 * 4.0 * 446 * 1.25) / 1 = 4148
LVAd(avg) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 305 * 1.25 * 1.25) / (4.4 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 969
LVAd(max) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 500 * 1.25 * 1.25) / (4.4 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 1585
LVAs(avg) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 240 * 1.25 * 1.25) / (3.2 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 1046
LVAs(max) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 370 * 1.25 * 1.25) / (3.2 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 1613
AR1:
VKd(avg) = (1.86 * 4.0 * 375.5) / 1 = 2794
VKd(max) = (1.86 * 4.0 * 446) / 1 = 3318
LVAd(avg) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 305 * 1.25) / (4.4 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 774
LVAd(max) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 500 * 1.25) / (4.4 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 1268
LVAs(avg) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 240 * 1.25) / (3.2 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 837
LVAs(max) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 370 * 1.25) / (3.2 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 1290
AR2:
VKd(avg) = (1.86 * 4.0 * 375.5 * 0.5) / 1 = 1397
VKd(max) = (1.86 * 4.0 * 446 * 0.5) / 1 = 1659
LVAd(avg) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 305) / (4.4 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 619
LVAd(max) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 500) / (4.4 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 1015
LVAs(avg) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 240) / (3.2 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 670
LVAs(max) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 370) / (3.2 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 1032
AR3:
VKd(avg) = (1.86 * 4.0 * 375.5 * 0.5 * 0.5) / 1 = 698
VKd(max) = (1.86 * 4.0 * 446 * 0.5 * 0.5) / 1 = 830
LVAd(avg) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 305 * 0.5) / (4.4 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 309
LVAd(max) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 500 * 0.5) / (4.4 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 507
LVAs(avg) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 240 * 0.5) / (3.2 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 335
LVAs(max) = (1.86 * 3.0 * 370 * 0.5) / (3.2 * 2.5 * 0.25) = 516
So...you can see that as far as dps goes, because of our lower speed, and 3.0x damage mod vs. everyone else's 4.0x, we are outclasses both in average dps and perfect dps in every AR category. This is just DPS, as far as max hits goes:
Max hits against ARx, VKd vs. LVAd vs. LVAs
AR0:
VKd = 4148
LVAd = 4359
LVAs = 3226
AR1:
VKd = 3318
LVAd = 3488
LVAs = 2581
AR2:
VKd = 1659
LVAd = 2790
LVAs = 2065
AR3:
VKd = 830
LVAd = 1395
LVAs = 1032
In raw, one-time output, we have an advantage from AR2 onward, but factoring in speed and average damage, the VK wins hands-down in dps. (I know this doesn't say anything about the electricty damage VL. It's a given that if something has 100% kinetic resists and 5% electricity resists, the VL will do better.)
antares
master pikeman
Antares,
This layout is AWESOME!
Thank you for the raw comparision. I hope you didn't do the numbers with that 230 max dmg vk set though j/k (saw what the VK's were, just wanted to remember those VK's for a sec and drool).
I think you are very correct in the 3.0x multiplier on ph3 killing us. Also, the posture change (mentioned heavy on this whole forum) needs to be removed.
The speed/accuracy (accuracy mostly for me) I think is what makes MY DPS decline so heavy. It sways heavily and this is not a good thing with the costs associated with any solid special.