Musician Archive

I think this is a great idea.
I would also say that the experimental abilities on crafting instruments should be very low for lower levels, with not much increase until box 4 or master. This makes it so that if someone wants to use an instrument without having to tune it all the time, they'd have to get one from a master. Reliance on other players is always helpful for discouraging afk play (and masters who know that someone will be afking can refuse to give him/her a nice instrument).
I wouldn't worry too much about the cost of this idea. Instruments aren't really that expensive when it comes down to it, and while many of us are poor, there's always one whose other profession(s) are a nice source of income and don't mind giving away instruments. I know that I'm always happy to craft an instrument for someone, and spread the Scipionus line around .
But, I must say, I'm disappointed to hear that you're spending time coming up with ideas instead of developing fixes that we don't need. What kind of a dev pro tempore are you anyway?

Message Edited by Vermicious_Knid on 07-09-2004 05:28 PM

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Aleyo wrote:

(snip)

But, I must say, I'm disappointed to hear that you're spending time coming up with ideas instead of developing fixes that we don't need. What kind of a dev pro tempore are you anyway?

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bawler14 wrote:

I like the idea for continuity sake, but due to the fact that BuffBots usually are the alts of rich mains, repairs should not prevent them, nor AFK's who up until Publish 10 will be mainly run by rich Hologrinders... Macro's will always find a way around it...

With this change, it would be very difficult to macro your way around this. It would require some form of input from the player every 2 hours, at the very least. I do agree, though - many will do everything they can to get around any system put in place. The key is to make it a difficult process so that anyone who ponders it for a day or two can't easily start their own buffbot. Most of the macro problems occur because there is a command that corresponds to the macro. Require physical input from the keyboard (a "yes" or "no" response) and it makes it hard for folks to make that happen while they're away from the keyboard.

The PopUp idea, wellworthwhile has been brought up before... they implemented a similar idea to prevent AFK, sampling and it doesn't. All it does is tendannoy players at the keyboard. Anything which stops a macro, will not be implemented as the Devs fear 3rd party programs and the advatage of their users over others...

They made a mistake with "preventing" AFK sampling - it's very easy to get around that without using a 3rd party program. The problem is it still doesn't require any interaction from the user. The box prevents nothing. And, it only requires clicks (which is nothing for a 3rd party program)

A better way to prevent BuffBot's (Not AFK's but those should reduce considerably with Publish 10) is to require an crafted item similar to a Doctor's Buff Packs. This adds resources to the time requirement, and noone will willingly give away thousand's of resources it would require to run a BuffBot 24/7. Furthermore... this could add a dynamic to our Buff's through expirementation, however knowing many entertainers, the search for high quality resources would harm to profession... So it might be better, if the items did nothave expirementable attributes.

I agree, there should be something requiring resources that would allow for better buffs. And that thing should be instruments for Musicians. We already make them, and they require resources. This is why I'm proposing making instruments' quality matter (better resources, better instrument, better buffs/less decay/needs less tuning). Perhaps they could add things like Sheet Music holders and mutes for our instruments, and they'd have bonuses to buffs and healing. Maybe the tuning fork could be added, which is needed to tune your instrument. If the default action on the tuning fork is "examine" and not "tune" then people can't use it from the toolbar with a /ui action toolbarSlot. I agree that many entertainers might not like searching for high quality resources, but then again it would add a different dimension to our game. Also, I know many entertainers who craft for their other professions. There would be instruments around, as there are now, that folks would make for those who couldn't/don't want to - just like buffpacks for docs. Some docs search for the resources to make their own buffs, some just buy. A similar dynamic would then be added to the Musician's game.

What should be done however is to either make stricter AFK recognization and /dump as soon as any char is AFK. If the devs would fix the auto AFK tag, make it mandatory and have it requirekeyboard/mouseinput, and notjust macroed movement, all ourproblems would be solved. (The only way around it would be3rd PartySoftware andIt shouldn't be to hard to spot someone using it and report them.)

Instrument decay/tuning would make for stricter AFK recognition. If you're not there to reply "yes" or "no" (that you want to keep playing) when you've been playing for a couple hours, or you don't tune your intstrument enough, you stop playing, get a /dump issued, a /disband, and the AFK player essentially stops doing anything and will be auto-logged in short order. Heck, they could add a /pause 600 and a /quit in there for good measure.

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Thanks so much for your feedback, I agree it's not the perfect solution, as any determind player could figure out a way around just about anything. This, however, would keep the buffbot out of the general public's reach, without some serious effort to set it all up. Once a musician needs instruments constantly, and the resources for good instruments need to be used up, the glamour of a buffbot dims - now it's costing you something. Now you're giving away resources for "friends." It makes using them less attractive and maintaining them more of a chore.

Great comments and opinions on this, really - it helps hone the idea moreand focus on important problems that exist withthe Devs' previous attempts at discouraging AFK play. Thanks again!

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Vermicious_Knid wrote:

1) Most buffbots are masters and could tune their own instruments

True, now tell me how they're going to do that while AFK at...say...work or something. If they're playing, the instrument decays and needs tuning. Let's say they need to craft a tuning fork for this. The default action on the tuning fork is "examine" and the next option is "tune." So, it can't be hotkeyed to tune by using a /ui action command in the toolbar. When their instrument decays enough (even the best instrument will decay) a box pops up asking if they'd like to tune their instrument - enter "yes" or "no." if they don't respond in a half hour, the instrument is set to 0 condition and they stop playing/get a /dump issued/get a /disband issued. This stops any macro and they'll eventually get auto-logged. If they can't type in yes or no, no matter how good their instrument is tuned or how good of a quality it is, if they don't keep it tuned regularly then the instrument gets disabled.

2) Almost anyone could check their computer every couple of hours

Unless it's 3 in the morning and they've been asleep since midnight.Or, if it's 10 in the morning and they've been at work since 8. Those who check on their buffbot every 2 hours aren't the problem. It's the people who log in, run the macro, and at server reset they go offline. And, in all that time, they've never touched their keyboard.

3) Buffbots in one location could coordinate with timers so they come on as the previous one came off

Yep, requiring more accounts and more effort on the buffbot(s) part to have someone there buffing. It would take a decent amount of coordination to pull it off. That situation would be better than anyone in the whole game being able to hit a macro, and forget they even have a musician player.

4) Most servers cross time zones so someone will always be awake to attend a buffbot, even close to reboot time

Yep, but the whole effort of having a buffbot would be far more taxing. It would require interaction, so it'd be fine for a couple hours and then become a hassle. We would effectively reduce the ease of running a buffbot. Buffbots who are attended aren't really the problem, at least someone's there. It's the ones who can just hang out all day without interaction that are a problem.

5) Any number of macros could be written to get around the timer delay

The boxes would require typed input. Some sort of typed response. And, the timer delay is no longer based on the time between /startmusic and /stopmusic. The timer delay is your intrument. It keeps track of how long you've been playing, not a "timer" like a stopwatch. Eventually, that instrument will decay. Then interaction is required. I admit, people could get around the timer by switching instruments, but that's something that people who code would need to work out. Maybe the start and stop of the timer would be based on your very first /startmusic and the last /stopmusic you did, saving the time of that first /startmusic for 3 hours and then purging it at that point, or having it reset after you tune your instrument.

6) Most buffbots are alts, and can be left idle and not playing until a customer sends a tell or email, since most of

their owners play their primary characters several hours per day.

I'm not sure if that's true, as in most buffbots are that way. But, even if it is, so long as the person is actively playing that character to do the buffs (and they remain idle when they aren't buffing) then they're playing that character. They should be allowed to have another character that can buff when people want them to - that's what we do. We're not always playing, but if people ask us, we will. I play my alt and fight, with my Musician sitting in a cantina sometimes. If folks come into the cantina, I takea break from fighting (maybe they send me a tell/email) and play my musician character for awhile. The unattended buffbot is the real problem here. The process of making one is in the hands of anyone who thinks about it for a little while, and it's extremely easy to just let your entertainer play all day without attending to it. That's not how it should be.

Any "arms race" on the coding side plays right into the hands of powergamers. They will always figure it out quickly.

Unless the coding is made to require interaction, and buffing by entertainers now requires resources and time. It makes interacting with the buffbot to keep it going more of an effort, and prevents any person from setting an unattended buffbot to it's task all day, without once touching their keyboard.

Entertainers need to figure out how to serve the market better if they want to beat the buffbots.

What we ultimately serve to the market (mind buffs) is what a buffbot can provide just the same. The interaction isn't there with a buffbot, the social aspect is gone, but players get what they need to keep on fighting or doing what they want to. Entertainers are the only profession that can provide their (highly valuable) services to someone while completely AFK and without having to "play" the character one bit. They can also be mastered in the same fashion. Given that a buffbot can provide service at any given moment, in one exact spot, and all day long, makes the act of seeking someone who has mastered their profession pointless.Think about it,you search/look for Doctors to get buffed, you look for Image Designers to get stats migrated or to change your character, you look for Architects for houses, you look for Chefs for food/drink. Those characters aren't just in one place, dishing out their wares to anyone who wants them at any given moment, at any time of the day. And if they are providing their services, it'd be through a vendor. Essentially, unattended buffbots are mind enhancing vendors that are NEVER out of stock- this is not how a profession should be allowed to function.

Message Edited by Vermicious_Knid on 07-09-2004 05:28 PM

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Getting around "tuning" would be very easy: They would make 20 instruments, tune them all at the begining of each day, put them in the various toolbar spaces and set up a macro to equip an new intrument every 2 hours or so. It would only be a hassle for them but not something that would stop them from making a buffbot.

The solution has to involve either a crafted item for buffs requiring reasorces, making buffs actuallly "cost" something. Or make the entertainer buffs require limited use "sheet music" like a limited use crafting schematic. You have to learn songs off the sheet music and add them to your datapad. Each time you buff someone you loose a "use" and you have to use up all your uses before you can relearn the "sheet music"

I know new songs and dances are being offered as rewards for the entertainer quests in a future patch, these new songs and dances could be limited use "Sheet music/dance lesson" schematics or whatever.

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TuskKiller wrote:
Getting around "tuning" would be very easy: They would make 20 instruments, tune them all at the begining of each day, put them in the various toolbar spaces and set up a macro to equip an new intrument every 2 hours or so. It would only be a hassle for them but not something that would stop them from making a buffbot.

That's why there would be a mechanism in place (as i said in my post) that after 2 hours of playing (you could play 1 instrument, tuned or not, or 40 instruments in that time) and a box would pop up saying "you've been playing for quite awhile! You probably need a rest! Would you like to keep playing?" and you'd have to type "yes" or "no" and click a button. if no response is given for 20 minutes, the player gets a /dump, a /disband, and the auto-log off does the rest.

The solution has to involve either a crafted item for buffs requiring reasorces, making buffs actuallly "cost" something. Or make the entertainer buffs require limited use "sheet music" like a limited use crafting schematic. You have to learn songs off the sheet music and add them to your datapad. Each time you buff someone you loose a "use" and you have to use up all your uses before you can relearn the "sheet music"

The crafted item (in my example) is the musical instrument. Quality and resources used would impact the effectiveness of the instrument. The sheet music idea is good.

I know new songs and dances are being offered as rewards for the entertainer quests in a future patch, these new songs and dances could be limited use "Sheet music/dance lesson" schematics or whatever.

These have already been made and are about to get released shortly, I don't think they'll be revising what they are at this point.

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kirah_ashlin wrote:

One little dancer piping up here, if you don't mind . . . This might open up a possible solution for musicians, but dancers would still be left out in the buffbot cold. What we really need is something that would work across the entertainer board, like resource driven buff packs. I don't see the devs being very receptive to making different coding changes for each branch of the entertainer tree.

I do think that crafting instruments should be a viable source of income for Master Musicians, though. Perhaps only Novice Musicians and above could craft instruments, with the level of instrument increasing with each step up the boxes?

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Hmm, yeah i thought that as i wrote this - it's exclusive to musicians. Maybe make dancing shoes for dancers? and if you play for 2 hours without stopping, a box pops up that says "You've been dancing for awhile, and your shoelaces have come untied! Do you want to lace them back up and keep dancing? Enter yes or no." if no response is typed in and entered, then a /dump and a /disband are issued and the player eventually auto-logs.

As for the buff pack thing, I'd say make instruments the "buff packs" and make dancing shoes the "buff packs" that we could use. The better quality, the better the buff. Then there could be entertainer crafters, and a music/dance shop could open and have repeat business.

Good feedback, thanks!!!