Musician Archive
Thread: Undocumented musician change on TC
The following change is up on TC even though it was never mentioned in testing notes.
-Instruments no longer have quality attributes to allow experimentation.
Experiment quality attributes no longer appear in the schematics and when making instruments the "resource quality" bars that appear when you load the resources into the tool are all black.
I do not have a station and didn't run to a town to check that either, but they look to now work like other non-quality schematics.
Its another removal of something and this one they didn't even tell us about it.
Instrument quality could have been used to enhance these promised enhancements coming down the road, especially now that dancers have "props" that would give them something that would enable enhancement also.
Does anyone have "instrument assembly" tapes up on TC? I'm sure they didn't think to change them. I did have a tape on TC, but I can't remember if it was healing or Music Mind Enhancement. It was transformed to "Musical Enhancement" which as far as I can tell does nothing yet.
I think this is yet another opportunity that the Devs have missed. The worst part is that they are removing code that could have been used to ADD to our profession rather than using it as a base for something else. Now to get something like instruments and props to allow better buffs based on quality, they'll need to recreate all that code.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Musician/Master Entertainer
Oh, COME ON.
Scip, I seem to recall on just about every Issues thread we've ever created that the following was mentioned, and a number of times:
MAKE INSTRUMENT QUALITY MATTER.
So, yet another thing lost for our profession.
Thanks for noticing this, Frag.
Message Edited by Warryyr on 07-13-2005 10:20 AM
I also want to know what they intend to do about instrument assembly skill tapes.
WE DESERVE ANSWERS.
Well, I doubt we'll find out 'til live unless.....and this is my worry....unless NOTHING changes on them. I think they will still say the same thing and be just as worthless.
Good thing I'm a 12 point Instrument maker with a nice stash of 1000 OQ soft wood and metals.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Entertainer, Master Musician
Founding Member - Frag's Puppies
President and CEO - Fragpuppie Enterprises and Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra
I know the profession is very lacking right now, but unlike BF where one could argue that it used to mean something significant and it's being removed, instrument quality never mattered in the least in any game mechanic, so nothing's *actually* being removed.
I also (though this is just speculation) wouldn't fear that if they wanted to put it back and make it matter that it'd be tough to redo the code. It would seem to me that the creation of a mod in the game is not too difficult, and mainly consists of tagging things (like the schematics) with it. I would hope that with all the mods in the game that this sort of process is built on an infrastructure that makes it easy to add/remove mods. Now, what the mod actually *does* is the more difficult part to create, but since that never existed, that wouldn't be something needing to be redone.
Aleyo wrote:
To be fair, it was quite often requested in the top issues polling as "make instrument quality matter or just remove it."
I know the profession is very lacking right now, but unlike BF where one could argue that it used to mean something significant and it's being removed, instrument quality never mattered in the least in any game mechanic, so nothing's *actually* being removed.
I also (though this is just speculation) wouldn't fear that if they wanted to put it back and make it matter that it'd be tough to redo the code. It would seem to me that the creation of a mod in the game is not too difficult, and mainly consists of tagging things (like the schematics) with it. I would hope that with all the mods in the game that this sort of process is built on an infrastructure that makes it easy to add/remove mods. Now, what the mod actually *does* is the more difficult part to create, but since that never existed, that wouldn't be something needing to be redone.
Correct on the specific issue of intrument quality, but it's the general trend here that's disturbing: when faced with a game system that doesn't work as designed or not at all, and given the choice of putting work in to make it work or removing it, the Developers will usually choose the latter option.
See battle fields, NPC actors, FRS (although this is about their precious Jedeyes, I fully expect them to come up with a replacement), battle fatigue, multiple HAM bars,... and thus the game gets ever more linear and simplified, if only in little steps.
Is anyone else worried about this?
Aleyo wrote:
To be fair, it was quite often requested in the top issues polling as "make instrument quality matter or just remove it."
I know the profession is very lacking right now, but unlike BF where one could argue that it used to mean something significant and it's being removed, instrument quality never mattered in the least in any game mechanic, so nothing's *actually* being removed.
I also (though this is just speculation) wouldn't fear that if they wanted to put it back and make it matter that it'd be tough to redo the code. It would seem to me that the creation of a mod in the game is not too difficult, and mainly consists of tagging things (like the schematics) with it. I would hope that with all the mods in the game that this sort of process is built on an infrastructure that makes it easy to add/remove mods. Now, what the mod actually *does* is the more difficult part to create, but since that never existed, that wouldn't be something needing to be redone.
Well, to be fair, I think it's horrid that the Devs just REMOVE the PROMISE of having Musicians be able to actually be unique in some way.
We have Western...that's what makes us unique. Western, or no Western? *cough* Whoopity-doo.
Apparently, among ALL of the Top Musician Issues, the Devs decided to dig waaaay back to an older version of our Issues (#11 when I got back a few months) and select the freakin' ULTIMATUM of "make instrument quality matter, or remove it completely."
I will NEVER make the same mistake again.
I will never, everinsinuate, suggest, refer to, or otherwise encourage anything that could be construed as removal of anything involving Musicians. Because I guess the Devs will make an effort to find that and just rip it out of the game.
Worked up over nothing? No. Worked up over what could have been, but likely will now never be. Something, some way, to differentiate Musicians from each other.
Hell, if they even BOTHERED to dig into that instrument crafting code, did they at least allow us to now colorize instruments? Hmmmm? We'll just see. I highly doubt it.
As far as them putting something in at a later date, pleeeeease. I've been playing for almost 2 years now. This is the "later date" and we're finally getting worked on. When they're done with us, they'll get back to everything else BUT us, as has been their MO since I started playing SWG. At least they're doing something for us.
Here's a quick recap for any Devs reading this post, here arethe OTHER top issues that you passed by for the most part, to work on the ultimatum in #11 (actually, in our most recent version, #17 which does NOT feature the "or remove it completely" tag...hmmmmm isn't that interesting?):
#1. Unattended play - Still our number one issue, but by less of a margin this time. The removal of mind buffs has for the most part done away with buffbots, but AFK entertainers still contribute to an unfun cantina environment. (UNRESOLVED)
#2. Elite profession missing unique benefits - Our two interdependent skills (battle fatigue and inspiration buffs) are granted at Novice Entertainer, with the elite'e benefit being only to do these faster. There is not nearly enough benefit for being a Musician vs. an Entertainer. Specifically, Musician grants increases to the Musical Mind Enhancement skill mod, which currently does nothing. (UNRESOLVED, as of Publish 20 coming next week - which is very, very sad at this point. I'm still a glorified Novice Entertainer. Mind Enhancement skill mod has just been plain REMOVED. Mind wound skill mod FINALLY adjusted to represent what it should, as it should have been at CU rollout).
#3. New songs/instruments/sounds - We will always want more of these. They need not fit the standard pattern of our existing songs either: We would love to be able to play the songs that the jukebox plays, even if we couldn't customize it. We would also love things like sound effects, or the ability to modulate our existing songs. We have been feeling overshadowed by the uberness of the jukebox since it was introduced. (Some progress made, which is great...seeing as we're MUSICIANS. Jukeboxes are still way better than us, and available through NPC's. We need more songs, and better songs. We can never have enough songs.)
#4. The ability to form larger entertainer groups - Since group size has been lowered to 8 from 20, entertainers have trouble getting enough xp, forming the larger social groups they are used to, and coordinating performances that require synchronization among more than 8 people. (UNRESOLVED - likely will never happen. 10 instruments, 8 group member slots, you do the math.)
#5. Make /denyservice work more like /addignore - /denyservice should add a character to a permanent list that is viewable by the entertainer, just like /addignore works. Currently a person must be denied once per play session, and there is no way to view whether someone is denied or not. (UNRESOLVED)
Message Edited by Warryyr on 07-13-2005 12:34 PM
Aleyo wrote:
To be fair, it was quite often requested in the top issues polling as "make instrument quality matter or just remove it."
I know the profession is very lacking right now, but unlike BF where one could argue that it used to mean something significant and it's being removed, instrument quality never mattered in the least in any game mechanic, so nothing's *actually* being removed.
I also (though this is just speculation) wouldn't fear that if they wanted to put it back and make it matter that it'd be tough to redo the code. It would seem to me that the creation of a mod in the game is not too difficult, and mainly consists of tagging things (like the schematics) with it. I would hope that with all the mods in the game that this sort of process is built on an infrastructure that makes it easy to add/remove mods. Now, what the mod actually *does* is the more difficult part to create, but since that never existed, that wouldn't be something needing to be redone.
To be equally fair right back, I started my post with "Well, I guess we asked for it...."
What gets me is that they could look to the future and build in the experimentation aspects into the new props. With both of those in place they could implement something that would be a nice add on when they add the new "inspire type buffs" that they are supposedly working on. To me this removeal just means that we won't see that mean anything til the NEXT entertainer revamp....if we ever get a real one in the first place.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Entertainer, Master Musician
Founding Member - Frag's Puppies
President and CEO - Fragpuppie Enterprises and Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra
I'm just really ticked they opted for the ALTERNATIVE to #11 on an old Issues list (the alternative doesn't even appear on #17 of our current list).
And 4 out of 5 of our top issues still remain pretty much completely unaddressed. AFK could (in a way) be discouraged in cantinas, since after Publish 20 an "Entertainer" can become a Master "Entertainer" or "Dancer and Musician" by "entertaining" in their house until their mastery. The problem with this idea is that many AFK'ers are NOT necessarily in cantinas just to grind healing xp - many are there to (remember these quotes, folks?) "Provide a service" or because "There are no Entertainers anywhere so without me people couldn't get what they needed." And now these bots can provide their AFK wares even EASIER because Inspiration buffs are totally passive, and Masters provide exactly the same thing as a Novice Entertainer. Sad.
Basically, we lost something that could have finally become something interesting for our profession, when we lost instrument experimentation. We never even knew what we could've had, until it was gone.
And I'm getting REALLY sick of seeing things GOING AWAY and not enough of NEW THINGS.
Tack something ELSE onto the list of stuff that still begs the question: "Is one new song and a few particle effects REALLY worth this?"
Message Edited by Warryyr on 07-13-2005 01:09 PM
a) make props, which are purely for decorative purposes, so no experimental qualities, for dancers
b) decide to make props be the 'balance/equivalent' of instruments for dancers, in terms of where they go in the skill tree
c) in removing bf, change around the skill trees, dedicate one line of the elite professions for the prop/instrument equivalents
d) in moving the instrument schems from the 1st line to the 4th line, in the cleanup of the 1st line, notice that there are mods for instrument quality
e) get confirmation from someone who knows that instrument quality has no effect on any game mechanic
f) decide to remove the mod completely because it's not doing anything, in a cleanup sort of way
Anyways, my speculation is that this was not done as a separate "let's go out of our way to remove instrument quality right now" but as a cleanup of a mod that was discovered to have no use. This would also support my thinking that adding/removing mods is really easy, so there was no concern of "but what if we want to add something to this later."
Aleyo wrote:
I also didn't mean to imply that the devs picked this from our list of issues and decided to do it. I find it more likely (though once again, I don't know) that things went more like this:
a) make props, which are purely for decorative purposes, so no experimental qualities, for dancers
b) decide to make props be the 'balance/equivalent' of instruments for dancers, in terms of where they go in the skill tree
c) in removing bf, change around the skill trees, dedicate one line of the elite professions for the prop/instrument equivalents
d) in moving the instrument schems from the 1st line to the 4th line, in the cleanup of the 1st line, notice that there are mods for instrument quality
e) get confirmation from someone who knows that instrument quality has no effect on any game mechanic
f) decide to remove the mod completely because it's not doing anything, in a cleanup sort of way
Anyways, my speculation is that this was not done as a separate "let's go out of our way to remove instrument quality right now" but as a cleanup of a mod that was discovered to have no use. This would also support my thinking that adding/removing mods is really easy, so there was no concern of "but what if we want to add something to this later."
Hmm, speaking of that...
I'm still waiting for anyone to show me unedited video of any Musician performing a song without their "prop" instrument. Can't do it? Then it's not a prop.
What the hell happened to Musician props?
Is it REALLY too much to ask that we get *gasp* a stinking microphone and speaker schem or something?They're already in the game, you can't tell me that making the schems for them would be all that difficult.
Whoever thinks that Dancer props and Musician instrument are "equal" needs to come back down to earth with the rest of us. Props will make dancing more fun. Instruments are the same crap we've seen since day 1 in this profession and add nothing to our performance, they are required FOR our performance.
I hope this is being brought up with the Devs, because it's an important point and a very skewed view of reality in regards to instruments being "props."
It's not right. It's a cheap way for them to save development time, and I have not and I will not buy it as an excuse.
If they made the paltry effort of a microphone and speaker schem for us, I'd shut my mouth. They don't even need to do anything. It can't be that much of an effort.
A song and a few particle effects are not worth what we're getting, not by a long shot - and the pile of discarded and misguided stuff seems to just keep building.
Message Edited by Warryyr on 07-13-2005 01:21 PM
Warryyr wrote:
If they made the paltry effort of a microphone and speaker schem for us, I'd shut my mouth. They don't even need to do anything. It can't be that much of an effort.
One would have imagined, that instrument quality would have affected the use of action, so that a better instrument would take less "effort" to make it sound good, and thus be better on your action bar. However, notice that now, action bars hardly move at all, and never get drained no matter what dance or song you are doing. I've never had mine get below 7/8ths, as far as I have noticed, and certainly nowhere near drained. As a result, what are they going to do with instrument quality? They can't make it so you can only play all 8 flourishes if it's a good instrument -- everyone would scream bloody murder. We have few enough flourishes as it is. And they can't make it so that it helps with action, because we'd all say, "Well THAT is irrelevant!"
They could, I suppose, make it so you are a bit better at healing... oh wait, there's no healing in the game anymore. Scratch that.
They could make it so you could buff faster, but wait... that's a moot point now because as a master you already buff in 30 seconds. What are they going to do, make it so with a really good instrument you can buff in 25 seconds? We'd all say that was useless also.
So I'm not sure here... I think instrument quality, in the general sense, should matter, absolutely. It always should have mattered. But in the new system, where you don't use action, you don't heal, and a master can buff you in 30 seconds (but no better than a novice can), what the heck would instrument quality actually do? Note, I'm not saying instrument quality shouldn't matter, but rather, in the extremely limited role entertainers now have in terms of game mechanics (the inspiration buff), they didn't really leave themselves any room to make quality matter.
Now, different COLORS would be oh-so-cool, and I can't imagine it'd be that hard to do. I'd love to see that...
C