Musician Archive
Thread: Hey akkurscid...
Oh and by the way, your main profession seems to be BH, why are trolling around here telling us that we should be buffing you non-stop? Because, I'd like to see you make a master musician (with AFKing it) and then tell me that we should buff 24/7.
Finally... we don't really care about defensive mod stackers. Take that somewhere where people are discussing combat. We aren't, we're discussing entertaining.
I hope this answers your questions Tokaf...
Tokaf wrote:
Could you stop answering all my posts by saying that "it's only my opinion"? That's getting old. First of all,it is your Opinion. Since I started reading your posts and responding to them (like you asked me to respond to you) youopen with anice question,then state your opinion and then tryto make it sound like a fact. Often your whole post hinges on your opinions being fact. Ratheryou should bebringing facts in to support you opinion.
A persons opinion can be a fact, example your favorite color isyour opinion but it is also a fact. Your favorite color is so and so thats a fact. On the other hand you can't truthfully say that everyones favortie color is so and so.
In fact, everything is an opinion because all things are essentially relative. I can'tsupply you a good arguement unlessit is clearthat there is a difference between your Opinions and the Facts we are disscussing.
But, for the sake of having an actual discussion, let's assume that there are some absolutes, and that you can't call everything I say an opinion while assuming what you say is a a fact. For the sake of discussion this is not necessary. Lets call opinions what they are and try to persuade the other side to our point of view, rather than just trying to say the other side is invaild because your side is not invaild, and by the simple fact it exsists neither is mine.
I also generally acknowledge when someone has a good point.
I generally acknowledge when things are my opinion.Here are some examples of my opinions: (1) In my opinion Buff Bots are necessary at this time. (2) In my Opinion, Buff Bots are not necessary if there are enough entertainers. (3) In my opinion,all classes need to"borrow" skills from a second kind of class inorder to make money. (this third one is an opinion,but it is generally appears to be true, if you don't believe me ask around in the other forums, there are very few single class only players because they usually are not successful, another example is your contention that "Buff Bots take money from live players" you have no proof of this, but it is generally considered as truth because it appears to be true)
Oh and by the way, your main profession seems to be BH, why are trolling around here telling us that we should be buffing you non-stop? Because, I'd like to see you make a master musician (with AFKing it) and then tell me that we should buff 24/7. I not saying "you" should buff me nonstop, I am saying "I" need buffing non stop. Which is why I'm here trying to save the Buff bot. The Buff Bot fills my need, and alot of other peoples need too. I'm no different than a single mother trying tokeep aid from the government from getting cut. Except that this is of course a game, and nobody really gets hurt one way or the other. If either you or me don't like the out come of this case we can, as a final protest,quit the game and our problem is solved.
If push comes to shove I might have tobuy a second account, get Master Dancer andMaster Musicianand Novice Imagedesigner just so I can get buffed on demand. This second accountwouldbasically be a Buff Bot, which you hate. I don't wish toadd any more Buff Bots to the game than there already are.
Finally... we don't really care about defensive mod stackers. Take that somewhere where people are discussing combat. We aren't, we're discussing entertaining. It effects you, by lowering the amout of people who have entertainer/combat skills, whichin turn lowering the number of entertainers period,which is why I am here defending Buff Bots "there are not enough entertainers of suitable level".Let me repost here what I posted in the dancer forum, my debate partner there finally said she understood my point,(thoughdoes not support myposition on buff bots)lets see if you can too, I highlighted the important (to this conversation)portion in red.
Akkurscid wrote:
This was a side point of mine. The reason there are not more Combatants (say pistoleers) who are also Entertainers (Pistoleer/Dancer for example) is because if the Pistolieer becomes a Pistoleer/Fencer the "Defenseive Bounses" of those two classes Stack together, a "Stackable Defense".Giving the player essentially twice the Defense of either a pistoleer or fencer only. If he only does the defense line from Fencer he can also getthe defense line of yet another class say Teras Kasi until he becomes nearly unattackable. (you may have heardpeople in the combatforums complain of this, fencer is the only class Jedis are scared of)
For example: My friend used to be a Musician and a Carbineer but Carbineer by itself is not very combat worthy (actually poor) so he had to drop Musician in order to gain some better defense and medical skills.
This effects you in the Entertainer Profession Because... Right there you Lost another entertainer. One who could have beenbuffing my secondary mind stats(causing me to have much less need for a buff bot) and someone who would come play in the Cantinas often (because he did that often usually in the Bestine cantina, and whenever there was a guild shin dig at Jabbas)
Message Edited by Akkurscid on 06-23-2004 07:06 PM
And don't liken yourself to a single mother on welfare please? People who can't take care of themselves don't deserve government help when they could have tried harder in school or not made bad choices. People need to learn to accept the consequences of their actions and not blame others or expect help. Whoops, /backtosubject.
Anyway, your answers to my arguements are generally flawed, which is why your tell me what is fact and what isn't sounds pompous. You say buff-botting is ok because live musicians aren't around. Is commiting a crime ok when the police aren't around? Hmm I thought not. The analogy makes sense in that the crime and buff-botting are both wrong (not nearly to the same degree), but you justify it if no one is "Catching" you. Instead of just accepting the current system, try lobbying for a better one, instead of just abusing the current one. Buff-botting hurts live musicians who are online, and hurts public opinion towards us as a whole. I'd say those two are facts, and are reasons why it needs to be stopped.
Akkurscid wrote:Tokaf wrote:
Okay, first of all, I never state that what I say is fact. OK this is true, yes.But you also assume that whatever you have stated is a fact, I will give you examples below and you can see yourself doing it.I simply am trying to logically show the buff-bots are wrong, and their excuses are flawed. Sure you are trying to say Buff Bots are wrong. I understand this. I have no porblem with this staement.
Your response hinges on one excuse: there are never any musicians around. This is also true and it is the Main point of my argument, all other points that I make either: A support this arguement, B offer solutions to the problems caused by Buff Bots, or (unfortunenately) C have to take time to explain and gget intoevery minute detail ofa personsdiscussion, because even when they agree with you. they say they don't and claim any supportive comments made, hurtthe other guysposition.
You did this with the "Sky is blue" thing. You bascially said I was wrong then proceeded to say the exact samething I said, onlyusing different words. We both agree that the sky is blue wether the color blind guy sees it that way or not. However,you couldn't bring yourself to simply say "I agree with this point"
You seem to forget that buff-bots are on 24/7 and cut into the business of live musicians like me. No I don't.
They also affect us when we aren't online, because people become used to seeing bots, and they stop caring whether the entertainer is AFK or ATK. This is a good arguement here, it does not change my position because I agree with you on this one point.
Furthermore, you still haven't discovered what NEED or HAVE TO means. This is untrue, and it is "inyour opinion." so here we are the first time you have made a personal opinion. this is where you start assuming your opinion to be a fact.
They are both different from WANT. I know this but according to your Opinion I don't know what it means
The carbineer in your example didn't NEED those defensive mods, he WANTED them. Sure to be competive, I have said that many times. Hopwever you still are using the Opinion that I don't know the difference between need and want.
You keep confusing this. Again this is baesed on your opinion above People don't NEED to do anything in this game, they CHOOSE to. See I can agree here again. However this is sort of a trick statement. because if you want to be competive you need to do something about it.
Thisstatement acutally hurts your arguement about not wanting to take a second class. If you want to stay stuck in a "low paying profession" that is your choice. You don't need the buff bots removed. It is your own fault that you don't have a combat profession to make money with.
See it is a double edge sword.
And don't liken yourself to a single mother on welfare please? It is just an analogy, This is why I have to do (C) (see above)People who can't take care of themselves don't deserve government help when they could have tried harder in school or not made bad choices. Who is pompus here?
Warning: this next line is not directed at entertainers in generalit is just for the "sake of discussion" with Tokaf.
People need to learn to accept the consequences of their actions and not blame others or expect help. If this is true... then why in the blankety blank blank are you having such a problem getting along with buff bots? You made the choice to become an entertainer did you not? It was a bad choice from the beginning. "Oh but it was fun" you say so did the single mom. " I used to love this profession" So, the single mom loved her boyfriend didn't she? In addition,how do you know he didn't get killed in Iraq? This is a very harsh position to take.
Whoops, /backtosubject. Nice bit of humor
Anyway, your answers to my arguements are generally flawed, *sigh* In your opinion.which is why your tell me what is fact and what isn't sounds pompous. Probably it does, but you asked for it. You'll notice I have not done this with anyone else.
You say buff-botting is ok because live musicians aren't around. Yes I do butI should point out I have been trying to ask that skill points be freed up by getting rid of stackable defenses.
Is commiting a crime ok when the police aren't around? Hmm I thought not. Again this assumes that "your opinion" of buff botting is a "fact."
The analogy makes sense in that the crime and buff-botting are both wrong (not nearly to the same degree), but you justify it if no one is "Catching" you. Again this assumes your Opinion is a fact.
Instead of just accepting the current system, try lobbying for a better one, instead of just abusing the current one. I have... I called it "Get rid of stackable defenses so people can stay competive without dumping all their skill points into narrow templates." This frees up people to become part time entertainers, Like my friend.
Buff-botting hurts live musicians who are online,This seems to be a general consenus for entertainers, so I give this more weight than just your personal opinion. and it is a good arguing point, to bad you don't use these type of arguing points more often. But it still dosen't change my position, because the damage is small and hologrinding is coming to an end.
and hurts public opinion towards us as a whole. No I'd say the Hologroinders do,however your attitude thatCombat Professionsshould have to go around unbuffed and begging untillyou entertainers feel like buffing us is also makeing you look bad. You entertainers provide a service if your service sucks, people will go elsewhere. Right now they are going to Buff Bots.
I'd say those two are facts, and are reasons why it needs to be stopped. I'd say you had 2 "related facts" in your whole post.
I know you will say I have no facts in my posts because even when you agree with me on a subject you won't admit it.
I'll be happy to continue with you.
I'm not assuming anything I say is a fact, rather, I know a good deal of it is an opinion. What is irking me is how you want me to "prove" my opinion. I'm sorry, but you are not going to listen to my reasoning against buffbots if they are infinitly more conveniant than live musicians for you.
Oh and uh... on the sky is blue part, I didn't say what you said, and I didn't agree that the color-blind guy saying the sky wasn't blue was opinion. In fact, I remember saying that you can't prove that everyone sees the same color you see. Hell, let's be a tad more philosophical and say that you can't really prove anything exists outside of your own mind? (Solipsism btw...) Does telling me that I have to prove everything when you don't tell me how seem fair? For the color-blind man who sees the sky as pink, the sky to him is pink as a fact. Though, he bases his fact on his senses, which may or may not be flawed, and any fact based on ones senses is only correct if one knows their senses are correct. The problem is that you don't know if it is. What if the "color-blind" guy is really seeing things how they really are while we are blind to them? I guess that can't be true since the majority of people determine whether a fact is really a fact. That is my complaint: You seem to define a fact as an idea that the majority of people find true. If the majority of people thought the moon-landing was faked, would that make it fact? If the majority of people thought pakistan was east of india on a map (very possible sadly) would that make it fact? Really, everything you deem fact could easily be called opinion.
Oh and on then need issue? Let's try a fact... You don't NEED anyone else to make you stuff if you go unarmed and take up the occasional crafting profession. You could survive with your fists, making your own stuff and never truly having to talk to anyone else. However, since you WANT to not have to gimp yourself like that, you choose a profession BH, except now that you have a combat profession you also want to be a musician. This statement makes me think you see us as a secondary profession, not a primary one, which is why you don't think buff-botting is wrong (IMO of course!!!1!1!!) Oh and then you try to backfire my arguement at me... Lets assume I don't need (we'll define whether I do after this statement) to end buff-botting... Then, bots proliferate everywhere, and live musicians disappear. Soon enough, SOE decides to just get rid of entertainers and they delegate ents tasks to other professions. I think if ending the profession is a consequence, we need to get rid of buff-bots. How'd you like it if the Devs decided that BH didn't NEED to hunt jedi. People would be pissed, drop BH for defensive mod stacking (oh noo) and soon enough, no BH, so it is destroyed. I think that would be a good reason for BH to NEED some sort of player bounties (whether it be Jedi or not).
On the welfare thing, I'm not being pompous when I say people could have done better in school or not made bad decisions, because had they done that, they wouldn't be begging for the governments (and in the end the taxpayers) money. Oh and now you're telling US that choosing entertainer was a bad choice? I'm sorry, but show me some facts as to why it is, I'd love to see them, because (1) My action of choosing to entertain did not DIRECTLY cause buff-botting as the single mothers decision caused her to go on welfare and (2) I wouldn't be telling us whether our profession choice is good or bad, would you like me telling you that BHs are 1337 d00ds who gank people all day and grief them all the time? No you wouldn't...because it isn't true, just as how we didn't cause buff-botting by simply existing. Then you say: what if the woman really loved her boyfriend? And, what if he had died in Iraq? Let's be a little serious... (1)If the guy abandoned her, she couldn't really expect much help from him, and whether or not he dies is a moot point. (2) Her still loving him after he dumps her is sheer stupidity on her part, she can't blame anyone else. (3) Why do you mention him getting killed in Iraq instead of oh... being murdered on the street? Less than a thousand troops have died in Iraq, I would bet more have been murdered in all American cities combined in the same time period, though that is of course my opinion... I'm not looking it up.
The rest of your arguements seem to be that by getting rid of stacking, people can take up entertaining as their second profession... Do you want to piss us off? We aren't a "secondary" profession. People need us for healing unless they want to sit around for a long time. You seem to not fathom that we don't exist to be your slaves, we exist to serve you (though only if we choose.. remember?). I'm not saying everyone should be forced to go around unbuffed and beg from me... Tell me where I said that again? Your statement that the damage is small to musicians is an opinion... tell me how you are going to quantify that? You notice how you say that we "entertainers" provide a service and that if it sucks you just go on to buff-bots? By definition they are "entertainers" too, yet you like their service? Is it because you can get a free buff whenever you want? Oh that's right, you have to have everything convenient for you. We need to be right next to the doctors to service your needs whenever you need anything? Get real. Doctors aren't always around to buff unless you're in coronet, yet you don't complain to them. Why? Your preference to get free buffs does not excuse the practice. In fact, it makes you look selfish, telling us where we have to be when you want us, when our response: "We do as we please" is a fact... We can do as we please. I generally buff anyone that asks and don't complain if they don't pay, but lately more and more people aren't paying me.
Whoops, I never said you had any facts... but then again, why do I need to? We already know the facts: (1) There aren't many musicians around (2) Buff-bots exist when there aren't musicians around. (3) Buff-bots hurt live musicians (4) Live musicians are quitting over buff-bots (5) If all live musicians quit, there will only be buff bots left (6) Then there will be no point to entertainers, and SOE would likely just abolish us. So.... buff-botting leads to us abolished. That sounds like reason enough for it being ended.
I agree, there are never enough live musicians anywhere. However I disagree with you when you start using that as an excuse to receive a free service from someone running a macro. Excuses only go so far: The ends do not justify the means... Killing someone to get a million dollars is wrong. Finally let's get one thing clear: I'm saying buff-botting is wrong (as in morally...), and nothing else. To you, that's an opinion, and we can only prove opinions with facts, which you define as facts by whether or not most people believe them. So... how about I argue that pirating games and music is ok? I bet many people would agree, making it a fact in your opinion? Of course... pirating is essentially stealing... it's wrong. You don't take what you haven't earned.
Beery wrote:
Man, I don't know why you're responding to this fellow. He's just another of these 1337 dudez who can't see beyond his own gratification. Not true, and Inflamitory.
He'll never even see your points, let alone empathize with your predicament. Also not true.
I've been through a conversation with him.He just doesn't get it. In your opinion.
His whole argument is based on the idea that entertainer is a relatively unpopular one, therefore we don't deserve to be treated fairly. Not ture. My argument is there are not enough entertainers go do without Buff bots. Your own community supports this position of few entertainers. If you like, I'll go though and dig up posts stating this fact.
It's about the most ridiculous argument I've ever seen on any forum. In your Opinion.
If I were you I'd just ignore him. It's up to you.
Of course this is plain mean spirited, and unconstructive.
Of course, the entire concept of "right" and "wrong"is based on opinion.
Moral absolutes are based on the opinion that those particular morals are, in fact, absolute.
Of course, that's just my opinion. 
Tokaf wrote:
Okay, first of all, I never state that what I say is fact. I simply am trying to logically show the buff-bots are wrong, and their excuses are flawed.
Message Edited by Vermicious_Knid on 06-24-2004 11:48 AM
Tokaf wrote:
Okay, first of all, I never state that what I say is fact. OK this is true, yes.But you also assume that whatever you have stated is a fact, I will give you examples below and you can see yourself doing it.
I simply am trying to logically show the buff-bots are wrong, and their excuses are flawed. Sure you are trying to say Buff Bots are wrong. I understand this. I have no porblem with this staement.
Your response hinges on one excuse: there are never any musicians around. This is also true and it is the Main point of my argument, all other points that I make either: A support this arguement, B offer solutions to the problems caused by Buff Bots, or (unfortunenately) C have to take time to explain and gget intoevery minute detail ofa personsdiscussion, because even when they agree with you. they say they don't and claim any supportive comments made, hurtthe other guysposition.
You did this with the "Sky is blue" thing. You bascially said I was wrong then proceeded to say the exact samething I said, onlyusing different words. We both agree that the sky is blue wether the color blind guy sees it that way or not. However,you couldn't bring yourself to simply say "I agree with this point"
You seem to forget that buff-bots are on 24/7 and cut into the business of live musicians like me. No I don't.
They also affect us when we aren't online, because people become used to seeing bots, and they stop caring whether the entertainer is AFK or ATK. This is a good arguement here, it does not change my position because I agree with you on this one point.
Furthermore, you still haven't discovered what NEED or HAVE TO means. This is untrue, and it is "inyour opinion." so here we are the first time you have made a personal opinion. this is where you start assuming your opinion to be a fact.
They are both different from WANT. I know this but according to your Opinion I don't know what it means
The carbineer in your example didn't NEED those defensive mods, he WANTED them. Sure to be competive, I have said that many times. Hopwever you still are using the Opinion that I don't know the difference between need and want.
You keep confusing this. Again this is baesed on your opinion above People don't NEED to do anything in this game, they CHOOSE to. See I can agree here again. However this is sort of a trick statement. because if you want to be competive you need to do something about it.
Thisstatement acutally hurts your arguement about not wanting to take a second class. If you want to stay stuck in a "low paying profession" that is your choice. You don't need the buff bots removed. It is your own fault that you don't have a combat profession to make money with.
See it is a double edge sword.
And don't liken yourself to a single mother on welfare please? It is just an analogy, This is why I have to do (C) (see above)
People who can't take care of themselves don't deserve government help when they could have tried harder in school or not made bad choices. Who is pompus here?
Warning: this next line is not directed at entertainers in generalit is just for the "sake of discussion" with Tokaf.
People need to learn to accept the consequences of their actions and not blame others or expect help. If this is true... then why in the blankety blank blank are you having such a problem getting along with buff bots? You made the choice to become an entertainer did you not? It was a bad choice from the beginning. "Oh but it was fun" you say so did the single mom. " I used to love this profession" So, the single mom loved her boyfriend didn't she? In addition,how do you know he didn't get killed in Iraq? This is a very harsh position to take.
Whoops, /backtosubject. Nice bit of humor
Anyway, your answers to my arguements are generally flawed, *sigh* In your opinion.
which is why your tell me what is fact and what isn't sounds pompous. Probably it does, but you asked for it. You'll notice I have not done this with anyone else.
You say buff-botting is ok because live musicians aren't around. Yes I do butI should point out I have been trying to ask that skill points be freed up by getting rid of stackable defenses.
Is commiting a crime ok when the police aren't around? Hmm I thought not. Again this assumes that "your opinion" of buff botting is a "fact."
The analogy makes sense in that the crime and buff-botting are both wrong (not nearly to the same degree), but you justify it if no one is "Catching" you. Again this assumes your Opinion is a fact.
Instead of just accepting the current system, try lobbying for a better one, instead of just abusing the current one. I have... I called it "Get rid of stackable defenses so people can stay competive without dumping all their skill points into narrow templates." This frees up people to become part time entertainers, Like my friend.
Buff-botting hurts live musicians who are online,This seems to be a general consenus for entertainers, so I give this more weight than just your personal opinion. and it is a good arguing point, to bad you don't use these type of arguing points more often. But it still dosen't change my position, because the damage is small and hologrinding is coming to an end.
and hurts public opinion towards us as a whole. No I'd say the Hologroinders do,however your attitude thatCombat Professionsshould have to go around unbuffed and begging untillyou entertainers feel like buffing us is also makeing you look bad. You entertainers provide a service if your service sucks, people will go elsewhere. Right now they are going to Buff Bots.
I'd say those two are facts, and are reasons why it needs to be stopped. I'd say you had 2 "related facts" in your whole post.
I know you will say I have no facts in my posts because even when you agree with me on a subject you won't admit it.
I'll be happy to continue with you.
Let me make one thing clear that I maybe didn't say earlier. This isn't a scientific arguement where I must prove my hypothesis through data and experiments. It is a philosophical arguement over whether buff-botting is right or wrong. I'm not trying to persuade the masses, I'm trying to provide a logical reason as to why buff-botting is wrong. Everything (just about) you and I say is opinion. Let us stop bickering over this.
Akkurscid wrote:
This is not necessarily true. I want you to use less of your opinions as a base for you arguments.
Define a fact for me, and I'll use them, until then, I'll use my assumptions, which I try to back up with logic
Akkurscid wrote:
At this exact Moment I have been playing over night for 8 hours straight! I have gone into cantinas on both Theed and Corellia, Corelia at least 4 times. I have not seen a Master musician yet.
Notice the over night part? I doubt you saw many people of any profession at those times.
Akkurscid wrote:Of course, the real reason for the sky being blue is the shorter wavelengths of blue light are curved more by the gravity of the earth then the longer red wave lengths. This has nothing to do with perception, and can be scientifically measured.
You must agree the sky is blue (at least some shade of blue) don't you? If you don't, please tell me what color you think it actually is. We are not talking philosophy, here just straight facts and opinions.
Well... to be really correct, it is blue because the light is diffracted (or refracted... I didn't have a good physics teacher this year :/) off of atmospheric molecules, and red light continues on straight, while the blue segment is defracted 90 degrees. This is why at dusk the sky seems so red. But... I didn't mean for this to be a point counter-point discussion over facts and opinions.. I meant for it more as a philosophical one over the merit of buff-botting... But remember when I mentioned Solipsism in a post of mine? Don't bother looking it up, it's just the idea that you cannot prove that anything exists outside your own mind. It somewhat makes sense, because you rely solely on your senses to perceive fact from opinion, right from wrong, when you have no idea whether or not your sense are deceiving you or not.
Akkurscid wrote:It is a fact beacuse it is a fact that people stack or lose.
Hmm I smell an opinion here. Try quantifying this for me? Hmm you can't, and that is why it is opinion(at least according to your definition of it)
Akkurscid wrote:What you can't change your approach? Go back to school and get a new skill? Isn't that what you would tell the mother?
I would tell the mother to do that, but then again, it was her bad choices, or lack of good ones that led to her predicament. My choice to be an entertainer didn't lead to buff-botting, and you didn't answer that. The rest of your answers hinge on this analogy fitting, which it doesn't as I have just said: We didn't cause buff-bots to exist. If you don't answer that, your arguement collapses. Oh, and I made a point about the husband dying because your choice of Iraq made me think you were putting in a little subliminal message i.e. one that had no bearing on the current arguement.
Akkurscid wrote:This is silly. Here I am trying to get more musicians and dancers for you (remember not enough entertainers is the reason for buff bots IMO) and you are trying to get rid of them?
Huh? Your point is that if there was no stackable defensive mods, more combatants would pick up ent right? I'm saying that that is offensive, because it makes us seem like a secondary profession.. which we are no more of than you are. Furtherore your general arguement fails because these people wouldn't be around to buff you 24/7... They would only buff friends, since they couldn't buff themselves (fix this devs.. damn you) Really, the former combat stackers would all just get doc so as to not pay 10k every time they needed doc buffs. They'd still go to buff bots for free.
Oh and on the issue of us being able to heal you when we want... Docs can do that too you know. Anyway, further down I said that I still buff people even if they don't pay. I'm just saying that IN THEORY, you are not deserved a heal or buff, it is something we provide in exchange for a payment or at least a thank you. Oh and stop paying that buff-bot, you simply reinforce to them that it makes money. Anyway, you have no obligation to.. which is why I'm getting fewer and fewer tips.. People start not caring if any ent objects to not getting tipped because they can just go to a buff-bot for free. By the way, I don't have a cantina. Most player cities WANT cantinas and would gladly pay a musician to place one. Also, most cities are guild associated, so the guild can pick up the tab.
Remember, those 8 hours were in the middle of the night.. You choose to play then, you accept the consequences. A live ent at that time MIGHT see one customer every ten minutes... maybe.. Thus, the live ent doesn't play then. That's also supply and demand... less demand, no one cares to supply. It still doesn't, however give that dancer the right to AFK buff you, when she wouldn't be able to be on at that time anyway. This is a philosophical arguement remember? The act of buff-botting is wrong because it hurts live musicians. Whether or not it immediately affects us does not make it right or wrong, it is the big picture you have to look at.. And in that respect, we are being hurt.
Akkurscid wrote:That is public opinion, it carries more weight than personal opinion, but not more than fact. Think to your history, at one time many people thought the world was flat.
So that public opinion carried more weight than a person's personal opinion that the world was round? True, that person might have been able to prove that the world was round by star movement etc., the average person would still not believe him. Just to make sure you know... Columbus didn't prove that the world was round.. it had been proven earlier by Greek astronomers.. Ptolemy for instance.. though his measurement of the circumference of the earth was really really **edit**ed up...Which is why columbus's crew would have starved had the Americas not been there.
And come on now... no need to end the discussion...
Message Edited by Beery on 06-24-2004 10:11 PM
Tokaf wrote:
I'm not assuming anything I say is a fact, rather, I know a good deal of it is an opinion. Good I hope so
What is irking me is how you want me to "prove" my opinion. This is not necessarilytrue. I want you to use less of your opinions as a base for you arguments.
I'm sorry, but you are not going to listen to my reasoning against buffbots if they are infinitly more conveniant than live musicians for you. At this exact Moment I have been playing over night for8 hours straight! I have gone into cantinas on both Theed and Corellia, Corelia at least4 times. I have not seen a Master musician yet.
Oh and uh... on the sky is blue part, I didn't say what you said, and I didn't agree that the color-blind guy saying the sky wasn't blue was opinion. In fact, I remember saying that you can't prove that everyone sees the same color you see. Hell, let's be a tad more philosophical and say that you can't really prove anything exists outside of your own mind? (Solipsism btw...) Does telling me that I have to prove everything when you don't tell me how seem fair? For the color-blind man who sees the sky as pink, the sky to him is pink as a fact. Though, he bases his fact on his senses, which may or may not be flawed, and any fact based on ones senses is only correct if one knows their senses are correct. The problem is that you don't know if it is. What if the "color-blind" guy is really seeing things how they really are while we are blind to them? I guess that can't be true since the majority of people determine whether a fact is really a fact. That is my complaint: You seem to define a fact as an idea that the majority of people find true. If the majority of people thought the moon-landing was faked, would that make it fact? If the majority of people thought pakistan was east of india on a map (very possible sadly) would that make it fact? Really, everything you deem fact could easily be called opinion. Ok I'm not going to cut this one up, but I will show you what I was going to post to you reguarding the "sky is blue" deal.
This is your response copy and pasted...
Your answer where you talk about the sky being blue seems logically sound..but first, you say that the sky is blue is a fact BECAUSE blue is the name of the color of the sky? While everyone's concept of "blueness" is the same, you cannot prove that you see it exactly the same as I do.This part is not really relevant to the conversation, however I agree withit I can not prove everyone sees"Blue" in the same way. In fact it is "assumed" that people don't bcause the color receptors in the human eye are not uniform from person to person.The "irrelevant" part comes into play because the point is not contested.
And furthermore, you hurt yourself when you talk about how the sky is still blue to a color-blind person (although I think most people are red-green color-blind), This is not what I said. I said the sky is colored blue whether the color blind guypereceisves it or not.
because I can turn your arguement right back around at you. By your definition of a fact, it is a fact because most people think that (hence the sky being blue thing). Isn't this what I just said? It isn't exactly, but it is more that close enough.
Of course, the real reason for the sky being blue is theshorter wavelengths of blue light are curved more by the gravity of the earth then the longer red wave lengths. This has nothing to do with perception, and can be scientifically measured.
You must agree the sky is blue (at least some shade of blue)don't you?If you don't, please tell me what color you think it actually is. We are not talking philosophy, here just straight facts and opinions.
I'll include the rest since I did the work.
Your statement that I shouldn't call buff-bots wrong because its only my perception is pompous on your part. In your opinion.
By that logic, you can't call it right just because of your perception.This is a true statement. Bravo.
Indeed, you seem to be muddying the waters saying that nothing can be proven fact that is my opinion if you differ from me. If anyone is Mudding the waters it's the guy tryingto bring philosophy into a straight forward discussion.
However your opinion can be different than mine and if you can not back up your opinion with something resembling a provable fact, public opinion(which means more than just the entertainment community), or something else besides your own feelings It is an Opinion.
A fact is not a fact because everyone agress. No this would be a "public opinion" and it carries more weight than a personal opinion.
A fact is by nature a fact, it can never be questioned. You just questioned wherther or not the sky is the same color blue to all people. It's blue enough.
And indeed, its easy to say that all things are relative, and that there are no absolutes, but in the context of a GAME where all aspects can be controlled, things are different.
Sony sets up moral absolutes when it bans 3rd party macro programs.
Does Sony have to define everything to you to make it a fact? Yes! If you are saying "For a fact such and such is wrong and it can not be questioned" I expect toe able to findsome documentation on it.
Use a little reasoning here, don't just tell me that since you don't agree that it's an opinion. Buff-botting hurts entertainers. I spent8 hours online I saw a few entertainers. None of them were of suitable level to buff me enough to hunt jedis. I got a doctor on demand. On Endor no less.
Just because it doesn't hurt you and other combat professions doesn't make it less important. It is important to Combat professions to get and stay buffed. I hunted no Jedi Last night.
Also, you accept your stat stacking issue as a fact, but anything you disagree with me on is automatically my opinion. It is a fact beacuse it is a fact that people stack or lose. it is my opinion that it is bad for the SWG community. Just like it is your opinion that Buff Boting is bad for teh SWG community.
If you disagreed with me when I said that robbing a bank was wrong, would say it was an opinion? Let me see... If I disagreed with you? I don't disagree with you on this point. It is a trick question.
Oh and on then need issue? Let's try a fact... You don't NEED anyone else to make you stuff if you go unarmed and take up the occasional crafting profession. You could survive with your fists, making your own stuff and never truly having to talk to anyone else. OkI follow you so far.
However, since you WANT to not have to gimp yourself like that, you choose a profession BH, except now that you have a combat profession you also want to be a musician. This is not the case. if you are actually saying me personally.
This statement makes me think you see us as a secondary profession, not a primary one, which is why you don't think buff-botting is wrong (IMO of course!!!1!1!!) IMO good.
Oh and then you try to backfire my arguement at me... Lets assume I don't need (we'll define whether I do after this statement) to end buff-botting... Then, bots proliferate everywhere, and live musicians disappear. This is an assumtion. But it's better than an opinion. because it follows a train of thought. However If I were to do this to you you would pick it apart with all kind of philosophy. (like the blue sky thing) I'll do you the curitsy and refrain, I hope you return the favor.
Soon enough, SOE decides to just get rid of entertainers and they delegate ents tasks to other professions. Judging by SOEs trackrecord, I find this highly unlikely. They haven't even fixed the BH droids after a year. Why would they spend the time toremove a profession?
I think if ending the profession is a consequence, we need to get rid of buff-bots. This is a fair point, and because you used "I think" I don't have to say it
How'd you like it if the Devs decided that BH didn't NEED to hunt jedi. I wouldn't mind I think they are too hard.
People would be pissed, drop BH for defensive mod stacking (oh noo) and soon enough, no BH, so it is destroyed. I think that would be a good reason for BH to NEED some sort of player bounties (whether it be Jedi or not). Actually not many BH are left because of stacking mods. Most new ones are hologrinders, or (a few)actual new players. It seems like there are more entertainers than MBH. I have no facts on this however, and it is entirely In my opinion.
On the welfare thing, I'm not being pompous when I say people could have done better in school or not made bad decisions, because had they done that, they wouldn't be begging for the governments (and in the end the taxpayers) money. This is a pompus attude, in my opinion,becauseYou haveabsolutely no way of knowing why a particular person may be in trouble.To assume they are all from bad choicesis particulary ludicrous IMO.
Oh and now you're telling US that choosing entertainer was a bad choice? I knwew this would be above your grasp.
Do you not know what "For the sake of discussion" means? Dude.
but ok lets play
I'm sorry, but show me some facts as to why it is, I'd love to see them, because (1) My action of choosing to entertain did not DIRECTLY cause buff-botting as the single mothers decision caused her to go on welfare andWhat you can't change your approach? Go back to school and get a new skill?Isn't that what you would tell the mother?(2) I wouldn't be telling us whether our profession choice is good or bad, would you like me telling you that BHs are 1337 d00ds who gank people all day and grief them all the time? No you wouldn't...because it isn't true, just as how we didn't cause buff-botting by simply existing. We are told this all the time. Beery called me that in your thread with my name for the title. I didn't fly off the handle I told her she was wrong. But I didn't make a big deal out of it.
Then you say: what if the woman really loved her boyfriend? And, what if he had died in Iraq? Let's be a little serious... (1)If the guy abandoned her, she couldn't really expect much help from him, and whether or not he dies is a moot point. Hmmm buff bot?(2) Her still loving him after he dumps her is sheer stupidity on her part, she can't blame anyone else. Hmm, want to get rid of Buff Bot because it hurts us (3) Why do you mention him getting killed in Iraq instead of oh... being murdered on the street? Less than a thousand troops have died in Iraq, This is the same as the sky is blue thing that I called Irrelevant.It's irrelevant, your points here,are not being contested.also you are going on about an analogy. I would bet more have been murdered in all American cities combined in the same time period, though that is of course my opinion... I'm not looking it up. You are probably right, however it is irrelevant, I don't care how the boyfriend/husband died, and neither do you. So why bring it up?
The rest of your arguements seem to be that by getting rid of stacking, people can take up entertaining as their second profession... Do you want to piss us off? We aren't a "secondary" profession. This is silly.Here I am trying to get more musicians and dancersforyou (remember not enough entertainers is the reason for buff bots IMO) and you are trying to get rid of them?
This is going in a complete circle. Very few peoplewant to do only entertainerclasses. By excluding theentertainer/combatants as entertinersyou arehamstringing your own community.
People need us for healing unless they want to sit around for a long time. You seem to not fathom that we don't exist to be your slaves, we exist to serve you (though only if we choose.. remember?). Should I petition to have BF and Mind healing moved to doctor?
I'm not saying everyone should be forced to go around unbuffed and beg from me... Tell me where I said that again? ^^^You said it right up there.^^^ One line up. (only if we chose.. remember?)
Your statement that the damage is small to musicians is an opinion...Good call bacause it istell me how you are going to quantify that? I tiped 10k to a dancer today the AFKers get nothing from me usually unless I know them.(excluding anything to do with buffing, Bot or not)This is admittedlya limited view as I don't know who else if anyone tipped. But I see plenty of fancy clothes, oftenfar more fancythan what I wear.and you guys all have houses and vehicles. These things cost money to own and opperate. Cantinas can only be placed by master entertainers right? How do you afford them?
You notice how you say that we "entertainers" provide a service and that if it sucks you just go on to buff-bots? Supply and demand.
By definition they are "entertainers" too, yet you like their service? I played 8 hours straight there were no live entertainer of suitable level on last night., in neither Theed nor Coronet.
Is it because you can get a free buff whenever you want? I pay 12k for a full set of buffs from my bot. If there were a live entertainer on durring those 8 straight hours thats potentially (4*12) 48k from me alone, if you are Dancer and Musician.
Oh that's right, you have to have everything convenient for you. All I can say is 8 straight.
We need to be right next to the doctors to service your needs whenever you need anything? Get real. I had doctor buffs last night.
Doctors aren't always around to buff unless you're in coronet, yet you don't complain to them. There were doctors in coronet as soon as the server came back up.
Why? Your preference to get free buffs does not excuse the practice. I pay 12k for a full set of buffs from my Buff bot.
In fact, it makes you look selfish, telling us where we have to be when you want us, when our response: "We do as we please" is a fact... We can do as we please. Sure and why can't the guy with the Bot in his merchant tent do the same? He is hurting you, you say? I think you are trying to put him totally out of business.
I generally buff anyone that asks and don't complain if they don't pay, but lately more and more people aren't paying me. Good! I wish you were on Starsider, we might not be having this discussion. EDIT: I just realized "Good!" could be misunderstood to think I was saying good that people don't pay you. That is not the case, I mean good that you buff people without complaint.
Whoops, I never said you had any facts... but then again, why do I need to? We already know the facts: (1) There aren't many musicians around (2) Buff-bots exist when there aren't musicians around. (3) Buff-bots hurt live musicians (4) Live musicians are quitting over buff-bots (5) If all live musicians quit, there will only be buff bots left (6) Then there will be no point to entertainers, and SOE would likely just abolish us. So.... buff-botting leads to us abolished. That sounds like reason enough for it being ended. A nice train of thought. But after (3) it is an assumtion.I should point outit would be better to bring this up earlier and not have to go into a bunch of minor mostly irrelevant details, before getting to it. It is a pretty persuasive argument. I honestly suggest you put it in your sig.
I agree, there are never enough live musicians anywhere. Finally an agreement.
However I disagree with you when you start using that as an excuse to receive a free service from someone running a macro. Hmm, I keep seeing free, I pay for mine.
Excuses only go so far: The ends do not justify the means... Killing someone to get a million dollars is wrong. IN your opinion LOL just kidding
Finally let's get one thing clear: I'm saying buff-botting is wrong (as in morally...), and nothing else. To you, that's an opinion, and we can only prove opinions with facts, which you define as facts by whether or not most people believe them.That is public opinion, it carries more weight than personal opinion, but not more than fact. Think to your history, at one time many people thought the world was flat.
So... how about I argue that pirating games and music is ok? I bet many people would agree, making it a fact in your opinion?Of course not, it's Illegal.
Of course... pirating is essentially stealing... it's wrong. You don't take what you haven't earned. it's also illegal. I agree.
Message Edited by Akkurscid on 06-24-2004 01:43 PM
Tokaf wrote:
And come on now... no need to end the discussion...