Musician Archive
Thread: GCW Role idea, what do you folks think
Page 1 of 1
bcre8iv
Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:56 pm
#1
alligatorboogaloo wrote:
Step 1: Get rid of looping macros permanently and forever. They are nothing but an excuse for bots, they are not required for gameplay in any profession, and they cause more trouble than they're worth. Heck, restrict macro size while you're at it to something sensible like 4 or 6 lines. That's enough to string two or three abilities and some text together and should be MORE than enough for any player to do what they need to do.
Ok, I can go along with that, although I'd rather just make looping macros have a limit to the number of times they loop. Say, 15 times (pulled from thin air). This way, instead of having a recursive macro (a macro calling itself at some point), you have a programmable, controllable loop. For the programmers among us, why not set up something like a C++ while loop?
alligatorboogaloo wrote:
Step 2: Make the basic entertainer profession free, like politician. This serves two purposes. First, it makes up for the entertainer shortage by encouraging players to pick up the profession. There's no reason why everyone out there can't learn to play a slitherhorn a little, or maybe dance. Not only will it immediately solve the issue of never having an entertainer around (there's a skill trainer at nearly every NPC city cantina), but it will also get people into the profession. They might discover that they like it.
I'm sorry, but I've gotta disagree with you here. Removing skill points from a profession should be done with much caution. Politicians get away with it because there's not really a lot to do as a politician once you get your city up and running. Entertainers always have a job to do, and therefore should have to give up skill points to get to the point that they can do that job.
alligatorboogaloo wrote:
Step 3: During world war II almost every major traveling entertainer was in the employ of one or more spy agencies. It was the perfect cover, and even though the governments knew it, it was still easy for entertainers, because of their fame, to get away with quite literally murder. Since the early middle ages, traveling entertainers have doubled as informants and spies.
The galaxy of SWG is locked in a titanic civil war. Even if they weren't, there are hundreds of greedy corporations and criminal organizations out there. Plenty of people that would love to have someone who can travel relatively freely, who can meet up with the "enemy" without putting them on their guard, and who is in a position to hear, see, or do something very useful to the cause. [snipped for brevity]
That is an awesome idea! Sure, it would have to be well thought out and executed, but this could 1) provide something for entertainers to do that can cause combat people to respect us instead of resent us, and 2) give us more content. Aren't those the two problems anyway? Aren't we screaming for a way to be respected and for more content? I think so! Awesome idea Neeno!!!
Ororo
Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:16 pm
#2
Er...wow. What an idea. I can't say I agree with a lot of it, but what an idea!
First things first - there are a lot of ATK entertainers around. I don't think anything needs to be done to get more people to be entertainers. We're there, we're just almost universally ignored by players looking for a quick buff and heal at no cost. We also tend to turn off spatial chat these days because of the constant spam from the afkbots that makes conversation impossible otherwise...and that makes us less accessible. I'm hoping these problems can be solved by limiting /say and looping in macros.
Making the base profession free makes absolutely no sense I can discern; it sets a nasty precedent and basically states entertainers have no play value whatsoever. Entertainers have a great value in the game and affect other players directly. The same can't be said of politicians, who solely affect guilds. Pilots don't have points because, frankly, well, I don't think the programming made it feasible. Regardless, your theory is basically to make all entertainers useless by giving everyone the ability to heal their own mind wounds. This would only reduce interaction, not expand it, and it would only limit the game.
On the other front, the espionage idea, that's a great role playing idea. I can see a lot of fun ideas with being able to assume an entertaining job to get into forbidden areas as having a lot of potential. The only problem is that there are only an extremely limited amount of places that everyone can't get into automatically. A much larger sort of security system would need to be put in place for a reason to break in to really seem necessary. Still, I think it's a good idea and worth considering.
Good to see some thought on the ideas that isn't just inflammatory though! Kudos!
alligatorboogaloo
Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:33 am
#3
Disclaimer - -This is a cross post from the GCW thread asking about what our role would be in the war.- -
Historically, entertainers have had two problems. First, most MMORPG players aren't very social - they'll pay lip service to the idea that interaction should be encouraged, but given a choice, they'd rather solo than group, rather make their own items than buy them, and so on. Not because they have anything against other players per se, but because they are concentrating on completing whatever their objectives are as quickly as possible. Sadly, most MMORPG players appreciate the destination much more than the journey, and because of that, the social aspects of the game, along with a lot of the detail that goes into the game's setting and background, gets ignored by a lot of players.
Second, the original design gave entertainers a "purpose" by making them the ONLY professions that could cure mind wounds. This looked great on paper, but in practice it translated into what most combat players viewed as an excuse for unfair downtime. They felt like they were being penalized just to support these people who didn't want to play a game like they did, and they resented that. Not to mention that the entertainers wanted to be paid for their services sometimes, and sometimes when you went to a cantina you couldn't find an entertainer. So, while entertainers and combatants could cohabit, they could never really coexist, because the relationship was one of mutual resentment in a lot of cases.
Still, even with these two flaws, things would have kept working somehow, but for one problem. Bots. AFK entertainers running macros pushed all of the real entertainers out of the cantinas. Steps were taken to try and prevent this or put a stop to it, but it wasn't enough.
But all of you know this. This is ancient history, really.
Now we're at a sorry state. Looping macros are finally going away, and that should hopefully put an end to the last of the afk-tainer bots out there. But there are hardly any real entertainers now, and that leaves the game in a bad position. If the requirements for mind healing remain that a combatant has to find an entertainer, and worse still, if those requirements are made stricter again, the combatants will scream. And rightfully so. I know one entertainer that still plays regularly, out of the dozens I used to know, and quite frankly while he's my friend and I support him, I haven't a clue how he's been able to stick with it so long.
What's needed is a way to make entertainers valuable again while at the same time kick-starting the profession. Here is my idea.
Step 1: Get rid of looping macros permanently and forever. They are nothing but an excuse for bots, they are not required for gameplay in any profession, and they cause more trouble than they're worth. Heck, restrict macro size while you're at it to something sensible like 4 or 6 lines. That's enough to string two or three abilities and some text together and should be MORE than enough for any player to do what they need to do.
Step 2: Make the basic entertainer profession free, like politician. This serves two purposes. First, it makes up for the entertainer shortage by encouraging players to pick up the profession. There's no reason why everyone out there can't learn to play a slitherhorn a little, or maybe dance. Not only will it immediately solve the issue of never having an entertainer around (there's a skill trainer at nearly every NPC city cantina), but it will also get people into the profession. They might discover that they like it.
Some changes might need to be made to the profession to maintain balance, and that's fine. Nerf basic entertaieners a little bit and put that stuff into dancer/musician if necessary. Because that's where the action is at. Read on....
Also if necessary, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing to combine dancer and musician into one profession. This would give the profession overall more versatility while making it less of a tradeoff for people to pick it up. The goal here is to get people into it. Realistically, the worth of a profession isn't measured by what you had to give up to get it, and it shouldn't be. Instead, it should be measured by what it contributes to the game. And that's where the next step comes in.
Step 3: During world war II almost every major traveling entertainer was in the employ of one or more spy agencies. It was the perfect cover, and even though the governments knew it, it was still easy for entertainers, because of their fame, to get away with quite literally murder. Since the early middle ages, traveling entertainers have doubled as informants and spies.
The galaxy of SWG is locked in a titanic civil war. Even if they weren't, there are hundreds of greedy corporations and criminal organizations out there. Plenty of people that would love to have someone who can travel relatively freely, who can meet up with the "enemy" without putting them on their guard, and who is in a position to hear, see, or do something very useful to the cause.
I'll start with neutral factions because that's the basis. Suppose that you, as an entertainer, were hired by Jabba the Hutt to find out ths shipping schedules of one of his rivals. Jabba of course would pay you handsomely for this. To carry out this task, all you have to do is go to the rival crime lord's base, and do a performance for some of his men. After that performance, they're more than willing to talk to you (they're your biggest fans!), and they want to be your friend, so you should be able to easily get them to tell you all about the shipping schedules - provided you ask the right questions and make the right moves.
Imagine then, that sometimes these missions might be for more than getting information. Sometimes maybe you need to do something a little more unpleasant, like stealing, or sabotage, or assassination. Perhaps sometimes the entertainment could get you and your friends inside, but then it would be up to the other skills you or they might have to get through to the final objective.
Now put all of this into the context of the GCW. Instead of Jabba, you work for Imperial Intelligence, and they want you to penetrate a rebel base by posing as a sympathizer. Or perhaps you ARE a rebel sympathizer, but because you're a galactically reknowned musician, you are asked to perform a concert for one of the Imperial Navy's Fleet Admirals. Now is your chance - you can get information on troop movements, you can set his base up for an attack by rebel forces, or you can even personally take him out of the war once and for all and throw the enemy into chaos. What will you do?
THAT is the entertainer's place in the game and in the GCW, folks. Not only as a social vehicle, as a true entertainer, but also as a spy, a saboteur, a thief, an informant. This makes entertainers valuable in much more than their traditional healing role.
Imagine the fencer who uses her cover as a dancer to get close to a high-up NPC enemy and then attack? Imagine the musician who just happens to be a master pistoleer as well? In the current game, you'd almost never see these combinations, but if there was a point to being an entertainer besides just healing other players, you might begin to see more and more of them. Done right, this makes the game more fun for everyone, whether they get into entertainer for entertaining, or not. I'm a firm believer that most people actually DO enjoy socializing, they just don't realize it. So even though many people might get into entertaining because they want in on the subterfuge game, they might end up discovering that it's fun to throw a concert or performance for other players sometimes. And ultimately, there will be entertainers again, in the streets, in the cantinas, and in a lot of places you never really would find them before.
That's my idea. It's probably not perfect, but I think there's a lot of potential that can be leveraged to make entertainer a popular and needed profession again. Both for the GCW, which is becoming increasingly more important, and even in the neutral game as well.
Second, the original design gave entertainers a "purpose" by making them the ONLY professions that could cure mind wounds. This looked great on paper, but in practice it translated into what most combat players viewed as an excuse for unfair downtime. They felt like they were being penalized just to support these people who didn't want to play a game like they did, and they resented that. Not to mention that the entertainers wanted to be paid for their services sometimes, and sometimes when you went to a cantina you couldn't find an entertainer. So, while entertainers and combatants could cohabit, they could never really coexist, because the relationship was one of mutual resentment in a lot of cases.
Still, even with these two flaws, things would have kept working somehow, but for one problem. Bots. AFK entertainers running macros pushed all of the real entertainers out of the cantinas. Steps were taken to try and prevent this or put a stop to it, but it wasn't enough.
But all of you know this. This is ancient history, really.
Now we're at a sorry state. Looping macros are finally going away, and that should hopefully put an end to the last of the afk-tainer bots out there. But there are hardly any real entertainers now, and that leaves the game in a bad position. If the requirements for mind healing remain that a combatant has to find an entertainer, and worse still, if those requirements are made stricter again, the combatants will scream. And rightfully so. I know one entertainer that still plays regularly, out of the dozens I used to know, and quite frankly while he's my friend and I support him, I haven't a clue how he's been able to stick with it so long.
What's needed is a way to make entertainers valuable again while at the same time kick-starting the profession. Here is my idea.
Step 1: Get rid of looping macros permanently and forever. They are nothing but an excuse for bots, they are not required for gameplay in any profession, and they cause more trouble than they're worth. Heck, restrict macro size while you're at it to something sensible like 4 or 6 lines. That's enough to string two or three abilities and some text together and should be MORE than enough for any player to do what they need to do.
Step 2: Make the basic entertainer profession free, like politician. This serves two purposes. First, it makes up for the entertainer shortage by encouraging players to pick up the profession. There's no reason why everyone out there can't learn to play a slitherhorn a little, or maybe dance. Not only will it immediately solve the issue of never having an entertainer around (there's a skill trainer at nearly every NPC city cantina), but it will also get people into the profession. They might discover that they like it.
Some changes might need to be made to the profession to maintain balance, and that's fine. Nerf basic entertaieners a little bit and put that stuff into dancer/musician if necessary. Because that's where the action is at. Read on....
Also if necessary, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing to combine dancer and musician into one profession. This would give the profession overall more versatility while making it less of a tradeoff for people to pick it up. The goal here is to get people into it. Realistically, the worth of a profession isn't measured by what you had to give up to get it, and it shouldn't be. Instead, it should be measured by what it contributes to the game. And that's where the next step comes in.
Step 3: During world war II almost every major traveling entertainer was in the employ of one or more spy agencies. It was the perfect cover, and even though the governments knew it, it was still easy for entertainers, because of their fame, to get away with quite literally murder. Since the early middle ages, traveling entertainers have doubled as informants and spies.
The galaxy of SWG is locked in a titanic civil war. Even if they weren't, there are hundreds of greedy corporations and criminal organizations out there. Plenty of people that would love to have someone who can travel relatively freely, who can meet up with the "enemy" without putting them on their guard, and who is in a position to hear, see, or do something very useful to the cause.
I'll start with neutral factions because that's the basis. Suppose that you, as an entertainer, were hired by Jabba the Hutt to find out ths shipping schedules of one of his rivals. Jabba of course would pay you handsomely for this. To carry out this task, all you have to do is go to the rival crime lord's base, and do a performance for some of his men. After that performance, they're more than willing to talk to you (they're your biggest fans!), and they want to be your friend, so you should be able to easily get them to tell you all about the shipping schedules - provided you ask the right questions and make the right moves.
Imagine then, that sometimes these missions might be for more than getting information. Sometimes maybe you need to do something a little more unpleasant, like stealing, or sabotage, or assassination. Perhaps sometimes the entertainment could get you and your friends inside, but then it would be up to the other skills you or they might have to get through to the final objective.
Now put all of this into the context of the GCW. Instead of Jabba, you work for Imperial Intelligence, and they want you to penetrate a rebel base by posing as a sympathizer. Or perhaps you ARE a rebel sympathizer, but because you're a galactically reknowned musician, you are asked to perform a concert for one of the Imperial Navy's Fleet Admirals. Now is your chance - you can get information on troop movements, you can set his base up for an attack by rebel forces, or you can even personally take him out of the war once and for all and throw the enemy into chaos. What will you do?
THAT is the entertainer's place in the game and in the GCW, folks. Not only as a social vehicle, as a true entertainer, but also as a spy, a saboteur, a thief, an informant. This makes entertainers valuable in much more than their traditional healing role.
Imagine the fencer who uses her cover as a dancer to get close to a high-up NPC enemy and then attack? Imagine the musician who just happens to be a master pistoleer as well? In the current game, you'd almost never see these combinations, but if there was a point to being an entertainer besides just healing other players, you might begin to see more and more of them. Done right, this makes the game more fun for everyone, whether they get into entertainer for entertaining, or not. I'm a firm believer that most people actually DO enjoy socializing, they just don't realize it. So even though many people might get into entertaining because they want in on the subterfuge game, they might end up discovering that it's fun to throw a concert or performance for other players sometimes. And ultimately, there will be entertainers again, in the streets, in the cantinas, and in a lot of places you never really would find them before.
That's my idea. It's probably not perfect, but I think there's a lot of potential that can be leveraged to make entertainer a popular and needed profession again. Both for the GCW, which is becoming increasingly more important, and even in the neutral game as well.
Neeno 
Master Musician since Sept. 1, 2003
Page 1 of 1