Musician Archive
Thread: Stopping Buffbots (Proposed Solution for all Entertainers)
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Warryyr
Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:05 pm
#1
I'd like to start with admitting that I don't think AFK playing is going to go away. Given the current recursive macro system (which more than likely will not be removed from the game), I don't see AFK getting defeated anytime soon. It's unfortunate, but I don't think it'sthe biggest problem we have. It's a problem, it's annoying, but I think buffbotting is more damaging. AFK musicians do serve a purpose, in that they'll heal up battle fatigue if no one else is around. Though it's not the best way to provide this service, given the current macro system it's going to happen.
Dancers and Musicians have the ability to buff while AFK. This shouldn't be happening. It turns Musicians and Dancers into Battle Fatigue and Mind buffing vendors. Here's how I think itcould be prevented.
First and foremost, the /join command needs to be removed. It's thegreatest contributor to allowing buffbots to exist in the first place. If people just /invite the bot,the buffbot'smacro has a /join in it, and away they go. Take out the /join and require the click to accept joining a group. The /join command is being abused in a way it wasn't meant to be. No more auto-joining into groups.
Next, the issue of group buffs needs to be addressed. Being able to buff a group should be a much more involved process. In fact, it could benefit Master Squad Leaders, or a certain level of Squad Leader, to have the ability to distribute their buff to their entire group (just like how current group buffs work). In order to do this, an entertainer must /setperform on the Squad Leader. If there isn't a Squad Leader, an entertainer can right-click on each group member's name and select "Direct Performance" - just like how we can select Image Design or Leave Group - and a random numerical code must be entered to start the buff (more on /setperform changes later). This command should NOT have a corresponding keyboard command, it is only selectable by the UI.
The benefit of having a Squad Leader is that it saves the Entertainer having to DIrect Performance to each group member, and would decrease healing time - and,increase an entertainer buff's duration (let's say to 3 1/2 hours - I mean, troop movements take time). Conceptualbasis - maybe the Squad Leader is better at keeping his squad alert and focusing on the entertainment, and thus his group gets a longer duration for their enhancement.
Master Entertainers could add the benefit of group buffing, too - with adding the ease of buffing a group with one command, but without the healing bonus a Squad Leader would give their group. If a Master Entertainer is grouped with the buffees/buffing Entertainer, the buffing Entertainer can then /setperform on the group leader, enter their random numerical code, and then they automatically direct their performance to the entire group at the same time - no clicking on everyone's names. As opposed to a Squad Leader's buffing bonus of longer duration for buffs, a Master Entertainer provides the group with a more powerful mind enhancement (conceptual basis - they would serve as a conductor of sorts, perhaps - making the buffing Entertainer "work harder" and keeping them in time, thus stronger buffs).
Finally, and most importantly, the /setperform command should require a code to be entered, just like when you destroy a structure. Enter the random numerical code, and you start your buff. Can't enter the code, then you can't buff at all. It's as simple as that.
Well, that's pretty much it. Just something me and a friend (who's an ex-Master Musician) thought up. Thanks for reading, if you read all of that 
Gknee
Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:32 am
#2
***My comments in pink
Warryyr wrote:
I'd like to start with admitting that I don't think AFK playing is going to go away. Given the current recursive macro system (which more than likely will not be removed from the game), I don't see AFK getting defeated anytime soon. It's unfortunate, but I don't think it'sthe biggest problem we have. It's a problem, it's annoying, but I think buffbotting is more damaging. AFK musicians do serve a purpose, in that they'll heal up battle fatigue if no one else is around. Though it's not the best way to provide this service, given the current macro system it's going to happen.
Dancers and Musicians have the ability to buff while AFK. This shouldn't be happening. It turns Musicians and Dancers into Battle Fatigue and Mind buffing vendors. Here's how I think itcould be prevented.
First and foremost, the /join command needs to be removed. It's thegreatest contributor to allowing buffbots to exist in the first place. If people just /invite the bot,the buffbot'smacro has a /join in it, and away they go. Take out the /join and require the click to accept joining a group. The /join command is being abused in a way it wasn't meant to be. No more auto-joining into groups.
I like the /join command. It works wonders in other aspects of SWG. Having a click to accept can be as simple as a third party program..so that doesn't resolve much.
Next, the issue of group buffs needs to be addressed. Being able to buff a group should be a much more involved process. In fact, it could benefit Master Squad Leaders, or a certain level of Squad Leader, to have the ability to distribute their buff to their entire group (just like how current group buffs work). In order to do this, an entertainer must /setperform on the Squad Leader. If there isn't a Squad Leader, an entertainer can right-click on each group member's name and select "Direct Performance" - just like how we can select Image Design or Leave Group - and a random numerical code must be entered to start the buff (more on /setperform changes later). This command should NOT have a corresponding keyboard command, it is only selectable by the UI.
The benefit of having a Squad Leader is that it saves the Entertainer having to DIrect Performance to each group member, and would decrease healing time - and,increase an entertainer buff's duration (let's say to 3 1/2 hours - I mean, troop movements take time). Conceptualbasis - maybe the Squad Leader is better at keeping his squad alert and focusing on the entertainment, and thus his group gets a longer duration for their enhancement.
I think SL'ers would like that. I'm not a fan of it yet...but I do see potential
Master Entertainers could add the benefit of group buffing, too - with adding the ease of buffing a group with one command, but without the healing bonus a Squad Leader would give their group. If a Master Entertainer is grouped with the buffees/buffing Entertainer, the buffing Entertainer can then /setperform on the group leader, enter their random numerical code, and then they automatically direct their performance to the entire group at the same time - no clicking on everyone's names. As opposed to a Squad Leader's buffing bonus of longer duration for buffs, a Master Entertainer provides the group with a more powerful mind enhancement (conceptual basis - they would serve as a conductor of sorts, perhaps - making the buffing Entertainer "work harder" and keeping them in time, thus stronger buffs).
Finally, and most importantly, the /setperform command should require a code to be entered, just like when you destroy a structure. Enter the random numerical code, and you start your buff. Can't enter the code, then you can't buff at all. It's as simple as that.
Well, that's pretty much it. Just something me and a friend (who's an ex-Master Musician) thought up. Thanks for reading, if you read all of that
Pretty neat ideas. Something definately needs to be changed with the buffing. I'm with you there. Hopefully someone will pass these ideas on.
Straker_Atrella
Sun Jul 18, 2004 4:55 am
#3
Not a bad idea, but as you may have noticed, there are not very many squad leaders around, that profession needs a lot of love.
Just keep it simple.
Group leader targets Musician / Dancer in group and selects "group mind buff."
At that point, on the performers screen, a box appears just like on the "destroy" screen. This box has 8 numbers asking the Entertainer to input. No 3rd party ap or clicking program can do this. Once activated, all group members get a 3 hour mind buff that is 10% higher then currently.
If the numbers are not entered (such as afk people,) then the normal buff that people receive today is done.
While this may do the dreadfull ( to some people,) thing of still allowing afk buffing, people will prefer to get a buff from a live Entertainer. This way both camps are happy, Live Entertainers get preference, and if none are around, people can still use bots.
Crisby
Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:45 am
#4
I pay my $15 a month to provide my guild with a service. I don't steal attention from ATK entertainers because not a single one has ever stopped by my cantina. I am a buffbot, leave my macros alone.
Warryyr
Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:36 am
#5
Crisby wrote:
I pay my $15 a month to provide my guild with a service. I don't steal attention from ATK entertainers because not a single one has ever stopped by my cantina. I am a buffbot, leave my macros alone.
Just because you pay $15/month doesn't give you the right to exploit the macro system, abuse the /join command,and play the game completely AFK. Your $15/month doesn't entitle you to play the game in a way that was never intended. It's just like the auto-repair on vehicles when you hopped a shuttle - sure, someone could easily have said "Leave the vehicle auto-repair alone, i pay my $15/month and it's a service I should get." But, the game was never supposed to allow this, so it was removed from the game. The same holds true with AFK entertainer buffs.
Don't be surprised if something is implemented to correct this exploit of the Entertainer buffing system. Using the macro system to buff players while AFK was never intended, hence an exploit. You shouldn't expect to be able to exploit a system indefinitely, just because currently you can.
It's the same as them nerfing the 30-second buff. Sure, given the current mechanics at the time it was possible, but it's not something they intended to allow. So, they fixed the exploit.
I don't think AFK entertaining will go away, as the macro system allows it too easily. So, keep your $15/month AFK'er, heal up your guild members' Battle Fatigue all you like, and provide that service. But, I think AFK buffing is something that should be done only by at-the-keyboard players, since it's an elite profession's Master skill. The developers have stated they don't like AFK playing, and they're working to get ideas for encouraging ATK entertainers. I'm pretty sure the buffing exploit's days are numbered.
Padtai
Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:00 pm
#6
I saw your suggestions on the inconcept thread itself, where i posted a similar sort of idea. Our ideas are similar, so maybe you could read through my idea and modify yours a bit.
What I would change from your proposal:
(1) Requiring a squad leader or master entertainer just would complicate things bot form codedevelopment and from game play.Players would often having to wait for an entertainer to perform buffs for people in squence (the way doctors do it). I think this would increase the overall wait time in the cantina in a way entertainers and patrons would both find unpleasant. Instead of allowing an entertainer a few minutes to chat they would suddenly be pretty much the way doctors are--bank tip to get in line--do not send me tells, do not talk to me, i'm way too busy.Its why I stopped buffing as a doc, and only buff peopel iknow now. I know Squad leader could use more benefits--but maybe that is something the dev's can look into at some other point in time--getting changes into the mind buff system will be tough enough.
(2) /join is probably uneeded in game, but you also need to get rid of /invite as that is the other method people use (though it is more labor intensive).
(3) Instead of numeric code, it seems more immersive to do a random sequence of flourishes --so sort of the developer "random box' suggestion, but not generated by the player watching. But the code would only be required for buffs, not for the regular healing (and the window for buffs could be turned off if players were doing a show of some sort).
Anyway, I'm not sure how to cross link what I wrote up in the dev forum, but the idea was basicaly to just leave healing alone and change the entire buff interace to something that requierd active player interaction on the entertainer side, but did not much change things from the player side (except to allow them to see how their buff is progressing with a status bar of sorts).So only if an entertainer wants to buff do they see this new window and the required flourishes, but if they choose not to buff--they can turn the entire thing off.
NewJedi
Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:13 pm
#7
I like a lot of these ideas, but there are downsides. I rarely use macros of any type in SWG -- the only exception was when I was grinding on Bio-Engineer, and I used macros to help with crafting, which still has to be done at the keyboard. But I *am* a keyboard-oriented player. I avoid using the mouse as much as possible because long-term use bothers my hands. So I prefer to type /invite and /join. I also find it easier to /invite x in a crowded cantina than to find them and click on them.
Don't get me wrong, I hate autojoin, so in the end I'd probably support your proposal. I just wish the devs wouldabolish or curtail recursive macros. No other MMORPG tolerates anything like this degree of unattended gameplay.
Thorzon
Sat Jul 31, 2004 7:33 am
#8
I would guess that most people who object to those being AFK as entertainers are entertainers themselves. I have mastered all entertainer professions, but am not currently any of them at the moment. I am mostly a fighter, so let me give you another perspective being overlooked. As a fighter, (especially TKA), M/W/F buffs are a MUST and I DEPEND on buffbots to get the service that very few live players are providing. I am growing VERY tired of spending the ENTIRE FIRST HOUR or more EVERY time I log into SWG, just trying to get doc and entertainer buffs. I don't have 6 hours at a time to play often, so when I have to go planet hopping just to find buffs, it is very frustrating and I usually wind up having to leave the game not long after I've gotten the buffs, thus wasting buff-time and money. I NEED buffbots, because I can count on them! They are always in the same place and are almost always available. Removing the /join and /invite commands is rediculous...they are much needed in crowed rooms (like cantinas in major cities) and in crowded outposts like Dantooine Mining Outpost on Ahazi.
Basically, I NEED buffbots because it's so much trouble to find entertainers for buffs. If you wanna change something about entertainer buffs, allow entertainers to buff themselves...after all, docs can do it. The squadleader idea of adding a buff bonus is a good one...I like it, but dont' try to make this game any more frustrating to play, please.
-=Thorzon=-
Ahazi
Ravanne_Esi
Sat Jul 31, 2004 8:54 am
#9
I'd like to see something simpler for all parties. A patron can come in and watch or listen to a performer, after a set amount of time they get an indication that they are feeling relaxed and invigerated at which time they can ask the performer they were watching to activate their buff, picture asking for an autograph, this would be done by the radial menu and would have to be responded to by the perfomer thru the radial menu of the audience member who wanted the buff. A simple dialog box would appear once BOTH parties have decided to activate the buff like during a secure trade and any payment can be done thru the dialog box, click accept and everyone goes on their way. Since the performer would have to react to their audience member it would require being ATK to be able to buff.
This will leave everybodies macros alone and not interfere with anyone who want to use the command line for any purpose, this will even let people continue to AFK grind if they so desire but will make them almost useless for anything but healing mind and BF wounds.
Message Edited by Ravanne_Esi on 07-31-2004 09:57 AM
Ravanne_Esi
Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:04 am
#10
Thorzon wrote:
I would guess that most people who object to those being AFK as entertainers are entertainers themselves. I have mastered all entertainer professions, but am not currently any of them at the moment. I am mostly a fighter, so let me give you another perspective being overlooked. As a fighter, (especially TKA), M/W/F buffs are a MUST and I DEPEND on buffbots to get the service that very few live players are providing.
No! Buffs have become your crutch, you want to take the easy way and buffs let you do so.
I am growing VERY tired of spending the ENTIRE FIRST HOUR or more EVERY time I log into SWG, just trying to get doc and entertainer buffs. I don't have 6 hours at a time to play often, so when I have to go planet hopping just to find buffs, it is very frustrating and I usually wind up having to leave the game not long after I've gotten the buffs, thus wasting buff-time and money. I NEED buffbots, because I can count on them!
You don't NEED anything, you want them. Many people want things they can't have or that are not easy to obtain, get over it.
They are always in the same place and are almost always available. Removing the /join and /invite commands is rediculous...they are much needed in crowed rooms (like cantinas in major cities) and in crowded outposts like Dantooine Mining Outpost on Ahazi.
I agree. I would like to see a solution that doesn't take away funtions that have a useful and legitimate role in the game.
Basically, I NEED buffbots because it's so much trouble to find entertainers for buffs. If you wanna change something about entertainer buffs, allow entertainers to buff themselves...after all, docs can do it. The squadleader idea of adding a buff bonus is a good one...I like it, but dont' try to make this game any more frustrating to play, please.
Again you don't NEED anything. And why should we kowtow to your desire for things not to be frustrating to you when the current situation is frustrating to us? Your entire post has been a a series of ME ME ME ME ME. There are others in this game who are suffering from the currentway buffing works, we want to come up with a solution that benefits all.
-=Thorzon=-
Ahazi
(My replies in yellow)
(Edited for typo correction, if I could type I'd be dangerous)
Message Edited by Ravanne_Esi on 07-31-2004 10:09 AM
Arratarr
Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:06 am
#11
If you're tired of hunting down musicians for over an hour to get buffs, why not befrend a few? See if you can work something out, add them to your friends list, get in touch with other entertainers, Network some.
Its the having a buff Now Now Now that is driving people to buff bots. Maybe your guild, town, group should consider hiring an entertainer in to help with the availability. What a lof of us don't like is the way buff bots suck the life out of a game that is supposed to be fun, reducing others of our ilk to mere VENDING machines.
Doctors are feeling the degredation now, being asked to buff someone, and then easilly forgotten. Used only for their 3 hour buff, to sit in lines. Want to start a line? have master doc as your title, pull out a droid and sit down. It could be in the Deathwatch bunker, Geo cave, Old NPC cities like Keren, you'll have people instinctively line up. Heck, on Talus NPCs will line up. You'll know the bad ones, they have a wierd twitch, often mumble about janta blood, grumble about naked people asking for free buffs, and will get whats known as RBSS, Repetitive Buffing Stress Syndrome, where even away from other people, their arm keeps jutting out to poke at invisible people...
Do we just want to reduce musicians and dancers to these levels? Only seen as a service drone who does nothing but sit there providing others with endless service without the merest flicker of life to their eyes?
Its the having a buff Now Now Now that is driving people to buff bots. Maybe your guild, town, group should consider hiring an entertainer in to help with the availability. What a lof of us don't like is the way buff bots suck the life out of a game that is supposed to be fun, reducing others of our ilk to mere VENDING machines.
Doctors are feeling the degredation now, being asked to buff someone, and then easilly forgotten. Used only for their 3 hour buff, to sit in lines. Want to start a line? have master doc as your title, pull out a droid and sit down. It could be in the Deathwatch bunker, Geo cave, Old NPC cities like Keren, you'll have people instinctively line up. Heck, on Talus NPCs will line up. You'll know the bad ones, they have a wierd twitch, often mumble about janta blood, grumble about naked people asking for free buffs, and will get whats known as RBSS, Repetitive Buffing Stress Syndrome, where even away from other people, their arm keeps jutting out to poke at invisible people...
Do we just want to reduce musicians and dancers to these levels? Only seen as a service drone who does nothing but sit there providing others with endless service without the merest flicker of life to their eyes?
Drygo
Sat Jul 31, 2004 10:05 am
#12
Thorzon wrote:
I would guess that most people who object to those being AFK as entertainers are entertainers themselves. I have mastered all entertainer professions, but am not currently any of them at the moment. I am mostly a fighter, so let me give you another perspective being overlooked. As a fighter, (especially TKA), M/W/F buffs are a MUST and I DEPEND on buffbots to get the service that very few live players are providing. I am growing VERY tired of spending the ENTIRE FIRST HOUR or more EVERY time I log into SWG, just trying to get doc and entertainer buffs. I don't have 6 hours at a time to play often, so when I have to go planet hopping just to find buffs, it is very frustrating and I usually wind up having to leave the game not long after I've gotten the buffs, thus wasting buff-time and money. I NEED buffbots, because I can count on them! They are always in the same place and are almost always available. Removing the /join and /invite commands is rediculous...they are much needed in crowed rooms (like cantinas in major cities) and in crowded outposts like Dantooine Mining Outpost on Ahazi.
Basically, I NEED buffbots because it's so much trouble to find entertainers for buffs. If you wanna change something about entertainer buffs, allow entertainers to buff themselves...after all, docs can do it. The squadleader idea of adding a buff bonus is a good one...I like it, but dont' try to make this game any more frustrating to play, please.
-=Thorzon=-
Ahazi
I am a Master Dancer anda Master TKA. I don't NEED mind buffs. When I can't find an ATK person to buff me, I used brandy. And, I'm still able to make about half a million credits every 3-4 hours with my doc buffs alone doing janta and mokk missions, and the vast majority of the time I'm not even wearing armor.
If I can make that much money, without any mindbuffs, and armor-less, I'm pretty sure you can too. You don't need the buffs, you WANT them.
PistolDance
Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:16 pm
#13
Drygo wrote:
Thorzon wrote:
I would guess that most people who object to those being AFK as entertainers are entertainers themselves. I have mastered all entertainer professions, but am not currently any of them at the moment. I am mostly a fighter, so let me give you another perspective being overlooked. As a fighter, (especially TKA), M/W/F buffs are a MUST and I DEPEND on buffbots to get the service that very few live players are providing. I am growing VERY tired of spending the ENTIRE FIRST HOUR or more EVERY time I log into SWG, just trying to get doc and entertainer buffs. I don't have 6 hours at a time to play often, so when I have to go planet hopping just to find buffs, it is very frustrating and I usually wind up having to leave the game not long after I've gotten the buffs, thus wasting buff-time and money. I NEED buffbots, because I can count on them! They are always in the same place and are almost always available. Removing the /join and /invite commands is rediculous...they are much needed in crowed rooms (like cantinas in major cities) and in crowded outposts like Dantooine Mining Outpost on Ahazi.
Basically, I NEED buffbots because it's so much trouble to find entertainers for buffs. If you wanna change something about entertainer buffs, allow entertainers to buff themselves...after all, docs can do it. The squadleader idea of adding a buff bonus is a good one...I like it, but dont' try to make this game any more frustrating to play, please.
-=Thorzon=-
Ahazi
I am a Master Dancer anda Master TKA. I don't NEED mind buffs. When I can't find an ATK person to buff me, I used brandy. And, I'm still able to make about half a million credits every 3-4 hours with my doc buffs alone doing janta and mokk missions, and the vast majority of the time I'm not even wearing armor.
If I can make that much money, without any mindbuffs, and armor-less, I'm pretty sure you can too. You don't need the buffs, you WANT them.
Buffs are needed in PvP, however the changes to CM and doc might make that need less.
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