Musician Archive
Thread: More songs, flourishes, and effects coming; other dev feedback
But what I mean is that when I hit an Am I will hear it at a different time than you. You may hear us as playing off but I hear it together. I'm only assuming now, because of course I haven't tested it in the game 
If that worked I think it would be a lot of fun, but only for those of us who are musicians IRL 
I feel like re-posting this hear. It made itin the first Entertainer Correspondent 5 issues, but no direct reply about it from the devs. Maybe it's a bad idea, but I want it 
Waho wrote:
I REALLY want /changekey in the game. The music is digital so it should be very simple to change the key of all the songs. People wouldn't be so tired of SW1 if they could do some 12 bar blues on it or something... /changekey works like a flourish, it doesn't start until the next "loop" begins, then it switches to the specified key. It switches everyone in the band and grants no XP to anyone, and does not negate or replace any flourishes, a lot like how /changeband is supposed to switch songs.
I also have mixed feelings about putting so much twitch in a roleplaying game. Even with the flourish system in place, you would have two different "classes" of musicians--those who flourished, and those who played "real" music. The idea of an RPG is that it enables you to be something in game that you aren't in real life, and you would have in this way created exclusive content that was technically only usable by very few players because of their OOC talents.
In any case, it's an interesting idea.
Bener
Waho, I'm definitely with ya on the /changekey command. It's a MIDI engine, and changing the key, tempo and volume are all built into the standard already as far as I understand it.
Bener, I agree that integrating too much twitch is a concern, but to me, there are already many types of Musicians.
Those who AFK to MM just to find out they don't like it.
Those who treat it as a diversion on par with other activities (crafting, combat, etc.)
Those who do nothing but Entertaining for a living.
Within these groups are those who actively partake in writing flourish "songs" and those who just want to hit a 20 flourish/effect macro and watch, while roleplaying.
There's really no baseline for what it means to be a "good" musician, because there's no standard reward for being one. We make up our own rules to follow, and sometimes gravitate towards similar thinkers.
Adding twitch-musicians is just adding a new system for playing. I completely agree that only a few will bother after the "oh cool new toy!" factor wears off, and that even less will be any good at it
Whether it's "worth" doing is a separate discussion in my opinion. Technically, SOE didn't need to even give us Flourishing. Everything we do for others is done at Novice Entertainer. But they wanted to make the system fun for people. Even the ease of flourishing isn't an act partaken by some (which I don't get ). So if they became convinced that twitched-music would make it more fun, that might be compulsion enough alone.
I also support a /changekey command, though I have to confess that I'd probably use it as infrequently as I use /changemusic. To me, modulation (changing key) is best done in moderation. As in almost never!
Darniaq, I also like your idea of turning our keyboards into little MIDI controllers. I proposed a similar idea way back when. I don't see lag asan insurmountable obstacle to your suggestion.Yes, it wouldtake a dedicated band a long time to produce something worth listening to. That, in my opinion, is one of the greatest merits of your proposal -- it would require lots of hard work and rehearsal. All to the good.
As for allowing us to upload complete songs, I am perhaps a tad more optimistic than you that some SWG musicians would compose pretty good tunes. I myself have logged many long hours at my MIDI controller putting together instrumental tunes (jazz and classical) using programs like Acid, Frooty Loops, and Sonar XL -- and I doubt I'm the only SWG Musician who has experience doing that sort of thing.
As you say, the main problem is that SOE might end up trafficking in copyrighted material. The only workarounds I can think of are inordinately impractical and expensive -- a SWG Musical Ombusdman who decides whether songs are in fact original work before they are available for use in the game. (Yes, SOE could take volunteers, but those raise other legal problems.) Still, I'm not ready to give up on this idea; I've been asking my friend the copyright lawyer about it, and I'll let you know what I learn.
The beauty of the system, though, is that anyone could write flourish songs or "macro and roleplay", or just play the basic tune for BF healing. The flexibility was there, and the framework was accessible to everyone without several years of musical training to learn the difference between major, minor, 7th, piano, forte, and legato, not to mention keyboard skills and the like.
If this system was implemented, it would almost completely exclude anyone who was not musically inclined. In my mind, the equivalent would be to take the dice rolls out of combat and make it a first-person-shooter type game, but for those who didn't want to play an FPS, they could choose to do dice rolls instead. How do you account for both of those mechanics in the same game? It is hard enough to balance things even with everyone constrained to the same mechanics.
I'm also still not convinced that this is that easy to implement. I don't beleive your computer is continuously sending a signal to the server and vice versa. I believe data is transferred in some sort of packet (I could be wrong here, I'm no programmer). With the flourish system, in any given time interval the transfer is one thing--a flourish. You are talking about adding much more complexity--pitch (one or many, depending on whether chords were supported), dynamics, note length, note position, for possibly several notes in a given packet compared to a few flourish numbers. Tempo would probably vary as well with humans on the keys, and how will that fit with the pulse time? This sounds like an effort for a professional broadband music system, not for small part of a MMORPG.
Don't get me wrong. I think it's a neat idea, and that it has potential. I just think that it belongs somewhere other than an RPG. That being said, I like the idea of changing keys, and I like the idea of some simple dynamics. I would love to see more flourishes for each song and more music.
Bener
First I want to say I think all the other Ideas and things allready planed to be put in are GREAT!
Thank you to all the Devs and players that have put in thier input!
I just want us to be a bit more realistic about playing note per note songs.
Waho,
I never said that was his reason for it not getting put in. In fact Holo never said Why, just that he couldn't convince his bosses to go for it.
And Like I said in my second post, I can see them puting in a "System' that you canarange songs with Pre-determined stanzas. For example 'You have predone 'sets of notes', like a flourish sequince, Then, we could decide what 'sets' of notes we want to play in what order.
I think someone else has allready sugested this (probly said it better), and mentioned that there are programs like this on the net allready.
Thanks, NewJedi, for askingyour friend the copyright lawyer about it.
But , If Holo Did push for this as hard as he says he did, then I'm sure Sony allready ran this past thier Lawyers.
I just don't see anyway that this would not infringe on copyrighted songs.
Playing a copyrighted song inside an entertainment mediacould verry easily be construed ascopyright infringement. And would open up Sony for all kinds of lawsuits!
I doubt Sony would do anything to put themselves at risk for a copyright lawsuit. They have been on the side of copyright laws too many times.
NewJedi, I don't want to diminish the skills of those who become Master Musicians. I just think that even among those with a great musical talent and ability, they might find any system short of a full studio too constraining to be anything but a quick hack. The very best talent out there may not enjoy the most opened ended system SOE could provide in this game. It'd be like giving Michaelangelo a box of crayons and expecting him to enjoy using nothing but, while paying for the privilege Artists aren't dependent on their tools, but given a choice, they'll exercise their skills on better ones.
Bener wrote:
If this system was implemented, it would almost completely exclude anyone who was not musically inclined. In my mind, the equivalent would be to take the dice rolls out of combat and make it a first-person-shooter type game, but for those who didn't want to play an FPS, they could choose to do dice rolls instead. How do you account for both of those mechanics in the same game? It is hard enough to balance things even with everyone constrained to the same mechanics.
There would be bands that are all twitch, all flourish or hybrids. The hybrids could work, I think, as I described, with the flourishers doing the backbeat work and the twitchers hitting keys in real time. It would take practice to get perfect.
They could toss in a Musical Queue system similar to the Combat Queue, where the twitchers would be watching something akin to a list-based pendulum, waiting for specific points to hit keys. But to me, this would be a failsafe useful only when 10 people are calling Rancors in the Coronet cantina 
As to how the system communicates, you are right. It's not talking in actual realtime to the server. It's sending "orders" and "answers" on a periodic basis, with the client side being surprisingly autonomous. I'm no tech either, but I feel it's possible based on projects I've managed. I think it would require a separate communications system between only those directly involved. Sorta like private instant-created IRC channels.
But it comes down to justifying the effort for both the creation and the legal protection of it. I personally would love this system, and I think we could spend pages talking about how to do it, as others have done before us all throughout beta. We had similar discussions during AC2 beta as well, another game with an interesting music system. There's lots of precedent for people wanting it, but it's one of those questions about just how many would and at what priority. I've always been of the opinion that the legal aspects could be first addressed by disallowing the Storing of music. All twitch music had to be twitched whenever it wanted to be played. No sheet music trading and no even saving of songs should absolve SOE.
But the last question that comes to mind is just how it would work in game for the twitchers. We have keyboard, percussion, stringed and horn analogs, but I would imagine Lucasarts isn't assuming this isn't based on RL modern music
That's one reason I enjoy playing with those computer-based sound synthesizers that don't use standard piano keyboards. You draw bars and click squares on a time signature scale, using modification tools all based in a graphics engine to generate synthetic sound. To make it sound like "something" requires rethinking music notation, but for the most part people end up with interesting music that has no direct modern reference.
To fit the lore of Star Wars, I wonder if this approach wouldn be better. This way, this includes even those with no formal musical training at all, but allows for an even more open-ended music customization system.
I started entertainer a week ago. I've progressedup the musicianship and ent. healing trees and progressed intonovice musician quite a bit.In this week, I've made more money at music than I have as an architect or Droid engineer. I've averaged around 12k a night in tips. Now I realize this does not compare to missions on Lok or Dantooine, but entertainers aren't supposed to do combat missions, are they? Yes,entertainermission payouts suck wind. Bigtime.
I think to be successful as an entertainer, you need to talk to your customers. Find out something about them. Make them feel important. If they have fun, they will tip. Of course you also have the people who run in, don't say a word, don't tip and leave...
Anyway, I do believe it i possible to make money as an entertainer.
Hello.
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Suggestion: To allow Master Musicians to craft sets of instruments to be carried in a backpack or suitcase. These instruments could all be colored as a matching set and experimented on like crazy to provide optimum reasonance, timbre, etc. This would allow those really interested in the music business to get serious with their instruments and would certainly set them apart as they came into a cantina with their special suitcase and whipped out their Rasta Colored BandFill. The sets could provide a hefty credit income for the MM and allow serious musicians to show off their special instruments. -
Suggestion: To allow Master Musicians to craft add-ons to their Nalagrons such as the ability to hover above the floor and turn in circles or rise and descent? And of course be color coded to match the musician's set of instruments. Perhaps let the Nalagron have a disco ball extention rod, or mirrors to reflect the effects, maybe a light (it can be pretty dark in the cantina). Maybe some image design capabilities to enhance this instrument? -
Suggestion: A free item bazaar or terminal where you could recycle and/or donate unused or unneeded things like clothing and metals/minerals. I'd rather give away 10 units of metal that I can't use then to pay 20 credits to try and sell it at the bazaar and not have it sell anyway. I'd rather not just destroy an item but see it used by someone who might not have enough credits to buy it. At this terminal they could get it for free or the minerals could be returned to the earth or such.
Sincerely,
Shad'O, Master Musician & Master Entertainer - Valcyn server
Darniaq, I'm glad you are in my profession. Don't stop posting your ideas, if the devs try to implement anything even similar to your suggestions that would be incredible.
Our creativity is very limited by the flourish. Yes, there is opportunity to be creative, but we are held back by the number of flourishes and the length of them (if the flourishes were like 1/2 a measure that would be awesome ). Also, if changeband actually was fixed (still borked) then that would help some too.
/changekey and some kind of "twitch" elements would add months to the amount of time I will play this game.
dan said:
Waho, I'm definitely with ya on the /changekey command. It's a MIDI engine, and changing the key, tempo and volume are all built into the standard already as far as I understand it.
unfortunately, it wouldnt be as easy as that, the game uses a wav system, not a midi system.. all the music for each instrument is tiny wav files(each flourish, each song start, each non-flourish loop and each ending for each instrument)
a /changekey command COULD be made to work, but its a whole lot more work and latency issues will pop up with it running a digital sample that needs 'tweaked' on each wav file for each client.
im not ragging anyone for the proposition, personally i would like some variation to the exsisting songs, but as a pc sound lover(heavily involved in wav and midi for nearly 15 years) i know what kind of headaches it would cause the devs to try and code this so that it would work right, i dont think they would go through all the trouble
I thought I'd offer a brief update on where our top-five list stands. As you'll recall, our list calls for (1) distinct sounds for every instrument, so that the fanfar isn't the same as a slitherhorn, (2) new songs and flourishes, (3) some sort of /tipband option, (4) better gig missions and high-level content, and(an item over which there is disagreement) (5) some attention to integration of newbs into higher-level bands. In my weekly "pet peeves" to the devs, I've also mentioned the /change bugs and, more recently, problems with targeting the nalargon and ommni box. As I said at the beginning of this thread, the devs have replied to some but not all of these points.
Anyway, my understanding is that I'm supposed to hold off on developing and submitting a new top-five list until SOE hires a new staffer to oversee the Correspondent program. (Devs, if my understanding is incorrect, feel free to set me straight. ) Of course, I still plan to monitor this and other threads on what Musicians want, and I'm trying to take careful note of trends in Musician opinion, so please do keep your comments and suggestions coming.
In the meantime, the devs have asked me to start a character on Test Center so that I can participate in testing Musician changes there. I have done so; his name is Richie Starsider. He's a really bad slitherhornist.
-NewJedi, a/k/a Ricky Starwalker, Master Musician/Master Entertainer, Chilastra