Musician Archive

Thread: In Concept: bonuses for at-the-keyboard Musicians

Landlubber
Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:24 pm
#14
Yeah, my issues are more with how he said it than with what he said. Because as you point out, everyone has their play-style, and the right to pursue that as they see fit. So if somebody would rather spend all his/her time killing stuff, that's fine with me, it's not up to me to argue with that.

But in my opinion (and that's really all it is, an opinion) MMORPGS are to a large part about player interaction on a social level. So I wonder if our friend here is playing the right game for his tastes, because it seems to me he would fit better into some kind of online shooter...


But that's beside the point anyway. What made me think in this casewas that this might be how a lot of other players see us, and while I can't confirm this from my own point of view (during my travels with the band I'm in - Nebula - I meet a lot of people who enjoy our shows very much and make us feel really appreciated), I kinda worry that this perception of us might make its way to the Devs (if it hasn't already done so...). And if that happens, we're truly buggered...





______________________________________________________
The Ti'lya Brothers: Ailar (Entertainer/Chimaera, DG Trader/Bria),
 Klofi (Smuggler/Chimaera) -- Cancelled,
"You have a right to be upset. Anyone who is attached to any profession that doesn't get a lot of new content has a right to be upset." -- HanseSOE
______________________________________________________
Raph Koster on: "SWG: What went wrong?"


Aleyo
Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:10 pm
#15
Beery wrote:
"The Hunter gets bitter because he is forced to kill BF, traveling away to do so, cutting into his hunting time. Really bitter if he can't find a performer.
Both sides have valid points of view."
Well, the hunter's point of view is only valid if the game box touted SWG as "all hunting, all the time". But this is a Star Wars game, and it demands more from players than a 24/7 kill-fest. If these folks want to hunt all the time, they should buy an arcade deer shooter.



Or really any game whose game description doesn't begin with the words Massively Multiplayer.



Scipionus Mentus
Master Musician, Master Entertainer, Master Dancer - Tempest
-I support ATK people and playstyles.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

Zilod
Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:25 pm
#17
Wrong idea in my opinion, for different reasons


- the performance is not jus a service but also estetic and/or artistic, if i'm playing a music trying to do it well i have to chose what flourishes to use, maybe in that moment that flourish will not sound good or i'm alredy playing a music i 'composed' with a fixed flourish sequence.

This can also be worse with bands where maybe various members will begin to make flourishes that don't work well each other.

Dancers will have even more troubles as for higher dances flourishes 5-8 are broken.


- afkers can just do macros with a serie of flourishes... soon or later they will do the right flourish and get the bonus


- this method can just make the customer sabre times, but if the customer plan to go afk it doesn't matter to him if he will heal in 10 or 15 mins, he will be doing still something usefull to him while afk.


- it will not address the buffbot problem.



also the idea of giving bonuses to non afk is really soft, it means afk is ok and tollerated, non afk will just do it better.

i prefer something that doesn't permit to do it afk or at least remove the reasons to play entertainers afk like holocorns and buffbots.


in another 3dwas suggested to remove /join and autojoin, a really easy fix that maybe can get rid of most buffbots

the idea to remove cycles or better to remove the command macro to use keybar can be valid but it will hurt a lot other professions and 'legit' player too, anyway i will still prefer to see it removed than this death of entertainer professions...



and about rights of hunters to get rid of bf...


before holocorns and afk most cantinas had their non afk entertainers and there was no troubles to find live performers at every hour...

now when i enter in cantina i'm lucky if i find the group leader to be non afk.


Get rid of most afkers and you will see players come back to entertainer professions, atm being an atk entertainer is just source of frustration, you are lucky when the song the group is playing is the same, no one to talk too, customers see all performers as npc and no need to speak or appreciate them.


Warryyr
Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:15 pm
#18

Here's what I wrote, and why I think TH's idea is not a very good one at all (flourishing should NOT be something an audience should request from a live entertainer).





TH, thanks for soliciting some ideas from us. It feels great knowing you guys are at least thinking about these things and about our professions. Please keep the feeling alive.


I don't think this solution is the answer, but the underlying concept behind it is sound.


My single biggest problem with it is that I find it sort of disrepectful for someone to ask for a specific flourish, because any live entertainer wouldn't take a request from someone in the audience mid-performance just because they requested it. Typically, an audience member wouldn't say to a live entertainer "hey, play those couple of notes more, I like that" or "Hey, do those specific dance steps again, those are my favorite."


An entertainer's performance is theirform of expression- andit isn't something that should be interrupted mid-performance to appease an audience. I will very happily play a favorite tune someone has, or if they like a certain dance I'll perform that. But requesting a flourish mid-performance seems a tad...rude.


The idea of improving interaction between a live performer and patron is what's at the center of this idea - and that's a great foundation.


I would like to see mini-games put in, that entertainers and patrons could challenge each other with. The outcome of the mini-games could provide a bonus to healing/buffing. Some of these games would be very quick; matches that could be resolved in a few minutes' time (like some type of memory game, perhaps). There would be benefits to either the player or the entertainer winning the mini game. An AFK player won't be able to play at all, hence no bonus from the games. Even something as easy as rock/scissors/paper would be impossible for an AFK player to play, if done properly. Initially, an amount could be set for what a buff is worth, or a healing session is worth and the amount placed in the mini-game. Then, if the patron wins the game, the entertainer's fee is cut in half (though the entertainer is still paid what was initially offered) and the buff/heal takes less time. If the entertainer wins, they get paid25% more(the patron pays what the initial amount was, though - but the entertainer gets a bonus in addition to the payment) andthe entertainer gives a BIGGER bonus to buff/heal the patron.


Other gamescould be longer, to be used when not playing music/dancing. This could also tie-in to player run casinos. This very much could also fit into a Merchant's profession, though. Nevertheless, hear me out:


A Sabacc game could be put in. The entertainer starts asthe dealer, and all group members could play. The Sabacc pot limit would be set, and once the pot reaches the pre-determined limit, the Entertainer takes it as profit and the pot is reset.


A dice game could be put in, too. Something similar to craps. Our guild has a casino where we worked out a craps-type game, and it was a big hit.


Lugjack machines could be installed in cantinas. Entertainers who lose their mini game to their patron could then give their patron a "pre-paid" VIP card for Lugjack machines if they choose to - provided they enter a random numerical code requested of them when they provide the card. Let's say the card gives them 500 credits (or a random amount maybe based off of how much the patron beats the entertainer in the mini-game) that they can use in the machines.


The bottom line is, I agree with improving entertainer/patron interaction, but having someone bark at me, "DO FLOURISH 7 NOW I'M IN A HURRY!!!!!!! DO IT NOW I NEED TO GET BACK TO MY GROUP NOW DO IT, DO IT NOW!" and then "YOU MISSED IT, NOW I HAVE TO WAIT LONGER WHY DID YOU NOT DO IT, I'M LEAVING, THANKS FOR NOTHING!!!!"is hardly appealing. I think the last thing entertainers need is to be barked at while they're trying to perform. What we need is something that makes this "downtime" and "time sink" - that combat folks feel cantinas are - into something that passes the time a little better. We need something that will occupy both the Entertainer and the patron while they're visiting a cantina. Something that will keep them from checking their email and getting a sandwich/drink while we're performing. Maybe if we had a lot more music/dances to actually entertain WITH we'd be a little more captivating to our audience


Your idea is a start, TH- but please reconsider your approach. We get ordered around enough for buffs and healing as it is. Don't turn flourishing into a chore.


Again, thank you for directly soliciting some feedback regarding this idea. I think the basic idea behind it is a good one (increasing interaction) but copying a simple routine that's a fundamental part of your upcoming "Entertainer Quests" (where an NPC tells us what flourish to perform) isn't exactly the way to go between two live players, if you want someone to really pay attention to an entertainer. If the stale, repetitive music/dances don't captivate people, we need more at our disposal to do so. Maybe a mini-game between players would be a way to keep us interested.





See, what I think they're doing is just trying to use the already made code they created for the "Entertainer Quests" where the NPC's ask us to do specific flourishes. The Devs need to start thinking a little harder. The Quests are based on the idea of an "audition" - where it would be acceptable to tell a musician "Play me these notes" or "Dance these steps the best you can." In that situation, it's acceptable for someone to request a specific dance step or certain parts of music. It's an audition. Having a another live player doing this, it's kind of rude...i.e. while you're playing they interrupt you and tell you to play some certain notes or dance certain steps. Audiences don't usually do that...

Tarnak_Archvold
Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:30 pm
#19
Landlubber The people that come at the parties that nebula play at, are not there to get thair BF cured, they are there to have fun. That will make a difference in the audience. Now the crowd can be a bit difficult to energize (almost impossible to get them to the dance floor), but they all enjoy them self.

One of the problem with the public cantinas are that many players have never seen a proper performance. After Nebula's last performance in SL, I stated in the cantina until everyone else had left, and I heard a commend by one of the audience members that kind of shocked me, but then again it should not have surprised me.
The commend was by a combated: He said that he had been told that player music could sound good, but that he had never believed it until he heard it him self that night.
If the only thing players have ever heard is the chaotic sound-torture, of SW1 played by 10+ different musicians all doing thair own flourishes, then I am not surprised that they think of cantinas as unwanted down time.

That is why I think the afk music grinders are as big a threat to us as the buffbot's. While the buffbots are stealing our income, the afk grinders are destroying our reputation for making anything worth listening to.




"Once upon a time Rangers roamed the galaxies... Before the dark times, before the NGE. "
Once a Ranger, Always a Ranger.
Warryyr
Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:37 pm
#20






Tarnak_Archvold wrote:


If the only thing players have ever heard is the chaotic sound-torture, of SW1 played by 10+ different musicians all doing thair own flourishes, then I am not surprised that they think of cantinas as unwanted down time.

That is why I think the afk music grinders are as big a threat to us as the buffbot's. While the buffbots are stealing our income, the afk grinders are destroying our reputation for making anything worth listening to.




You've got a point. That junk does sound pretty bad. I think AFK'ing should go away, but with the current macro system I doubt it can be stopped...it's unfortunate.


JohnMarble
Sun Jul 18, 2004 2:05 am
#21

I thought about it, and, y'know, decided I'd really like this idea, IF they expanded on it just a little....


A patron will target the musician andtype the new command, causing the muscian to get the system message telling them to perform a flourish combo. They do the combo, andcan give the patron an instant buff (eating a lot of action). The buffbots can have their corners dolling out their 20 minute buffing sessions. Nobody in their right mind would go to the buffbot with an at-the-keyboard performer in the area. Allow the old /setperform and group buff methods, just allow the new combo /flo comboto be an option. To balance it a little, maybe the musician would need to be drunk on T'ssolock for it to work (give a valuable use to that booze), thus giving the special buffs a cost.


As long as it worked for dancers, too, I think everybody would be happy.

Message Edited by JohnMarble on 07-18-2004 04:10 AM

Isendale
Sun Jul 18, 2004 4:35 am
#22
I'm glad to see us entertainer professions are getting looked at, hopefully, if the idea DOES come into play, it'll influence AFKers to be ATK getting their little bonuses more, which means more live entertainers. This will HELP our problem, but there's little reason why most AFKers could just keep AFK entertaining, so I agree with the 0 XP while AFK idea.



+| [=( Colbas Tifarr )=] |+
Master Entertainer/Master Musician/Nearing Master Pistoleer
Straker_Atrella
Sun Jul 18, 2004 4:46 am
#23




Aleyo wrote:



Beery wrote:

"The Hunter gets bitter because he is forced to kill BF, traveling away to do so, cutting into his hunting time. Really bitter if he can't find a performer.

Both sides have valid points of view."


Well, the hunter's point of view is only valid if the game box touted SWG as "all hunting, all the time". But this is a Star Wars game, and it demands more from players than a 24/7 kill-fest. If these folks want to hunt all the time, they should buy an arcade deer shooter.





Or really any game whose game description doesn't begin with the words Massively Multiplayer.





Now I'm not saying I myself disagree with you, but that isn't really accurate. All massivly multiplayer means is that other people are in the world, not just NPC's like the old Daggerfall games and such. There is nothing that says people in MMRPG's are forced to interact with others.


That may be how YOU interpret it and why you like an MMRPG, because you like Interaction, others may like them for different reasons, or even consider buying player crafted items from a vendor interaction. Some people like MMRPGs simply because the world is vast and changing, it receives monthly updates and changes. That is what MMRPG means to them.


Believe it or not, for every person that plays an MMRPG JUST to interact with people, there are probably the same amount who couldn't care less if they talked to anybody. Most people fall somewhere in between.


Honestly, I'm for player interaction, that is part of my "idea" of a MMRPG. Yet how much should interaction should be "forced?" People already need (ok need can be debated, but let's move on) to interact for Armor, Weapons, Buffs, and Starports. All of those are readily available, should they also be forced to search multiple planets for somebody to kill their BF?


Honestly, I think part of the problem is general ignorance. When people see Entertainers, they generally think of grinders and secondary accounts. It never even occurs to them that some people may actually enjoy doing it.


When the grind stops and all those temporary Entertainers are gone, mindsets may change. When you cut the numbers by 75%, people will stand out more. I think that may help things a lot.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Droid Vendor at Resurection near Theed on Naboo -5757 6222. Both carry a wide variety of maxed Droids, I also carry every type of Droid and Droid supply.

*Straker Atrella: Dark Jedi * Atrella's Wench: Master Droid Engineer / Artisan / Scout / Merchant * Dark Vortex: Ranger / Rifleman * Havana:Musician / Dancer / Image Design * Enigmatica : Doctor / Swordsman* CrazyEyes: Role playing BH.
Xyrdre
Sun Jul 18, 2004 4:52 am
#24




JohnMarble wrote:


I thought about it, and, y'know, decided I'd really like this idea, IF they expanded on it just a little....


A patron will target the musician andtype the new command, causing the muscian to get the system message telling them to perform a flourish combo. They do the combo, andcan give the patron an instant buff (eating a lot of action). The buffbots can have their corners dolling out their 20 minute buffing sessions. Nobody in their right mind would go to the buffbot with an at-the-keyboard performer in the area. Allow the old /setperform and group buff methods, just allow the new combo /flo comboto be an option. To balance it a little, maybe the musician would need to be drunk on T'ssolock for it to work (give a valuable use to that booze), thus giving the special buffs a cost.


As long as it worked for dancers, too, I think everybody would be happy.

Message Edited by JohnMarble on 07-18-2004 04:10 AM





I didn't want to comment on this in the In Concept thread (thought a reply there might start turning into off-topic clutter), but here's my worry about anything that the patron gets to initiate.


What happens to the entertainer's sanity if 11 people do this at once? Or if a few people do it repeatedly, for an extended amount of time? Far, far worse than tell hell to be bombarded by anything as inobvious as flooding system messages placing requests for randomized flo combos.


The same question really applies to TH's posted concept. It all might sound fine and good in a single, one-on-one environment. When I go out performing in public though, it's pretty much never just one on one. Letting a room full of patrons flood me with system messages would likelyhave me right back out of the cantina but fast... as a means of saving sound mind.






Deila Karlossi , Blue Glowie of Dancers, and become more powerful than you could possibly imagine...
Beery
Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:42 am
#25

"Now I'm not saying I myself disagree with you, but that isn't really accurate. All massivly multiplayer means is that other people are in the world, not just NPC's like the old Daggerfall games and such. There is nothing that says people in MMRPG's are forced to interact with others."


I never said there was. I said that a Star Wars game demanded more. I never specified what 'more' it demanded. Actually, when I wrote it I think Iwas thinking of immersion factors such as long drives, starport waits, and stuff like that. I wasn't thinking of player-to-player interaction.

"That may be how YOU interpret it and why you like an MMRPG, because you like Interaction"


But I don't like interaction. I like it occasionally, but often I squirm when another player takes a particularinterest in my character. I'm an entertainer. I like putting on a show, but that doesn't mean I want to be best buddies with my audience. Sure, I'm an unusual entertainer - in that I don't particularly like social interaction. I entertain because I like playing music. Believe it or not, my choice to be an entertainer has nothing to do with the social aspect of the profession.


"others may like them for different reasons, or even consider buying player crafted items from a vendor interaction. Some people like MMRPGs simply because the world is vast and changing, it receives monthly updates and changes. That is what MMRPG means to them."


Me too.


"Believe it or not, for every person that plays an MMRPG JUST to interact with people, there are probably the same amount who couldn't care less if they talked to anybody. Most people fall somewhere in between."


Where do you get the idea that I think interaction is what MMORPGs are all about. The post you're responding to said nothing of the kind.


"Honestly, I'm for player interaction, that is part of my "idea" of a MMRPG. Yet how much should interaction should be "forced?" People already need (ok need can be debated, but let's move on) to interact for Armor, Weapons, Buffs, and Starports. All of those are readily available, should they also be forced to search multiple planets for somebody to kill their BF?"


Yes, they should. Because that was the original intent of the developers. This has NOTHING to do with social interaction. It has to do with game mechanics. If real players weren't offering BF heals, then there would be NPCs offering the same service in order to get you interacting more with the wider Star Wars universe. Anyway, the fact that you're forced to go to a cantina to heal doesn't mean you are forced to talk toyour healersor make friends with them. You can ignore them if you want. No one is forcing you to interact beyond the basic necessities imposed by the fact that this is a Star Wars game, and not a FPS game. A MMORPG based on Star Wars demands more from its players than a FPS game. If you bought this game with the thought that it was going to be a Star Wars shooter with no necessity to interact on other levels with the Star Wars universe, you bought the wrong game.


"Honestly, I think part of the problem is general ignorance. When people see Entertainers, they generally think of grinders and secondary accounts. It never even occurs to them that some people may actually enjoy doing it."


This is true.


"When the grind stops and all those temporary Entertainers are gone, mindsets may change. When you cut the numbers by 75%, people will stand out more. I think that may help things a lot."


I doubt it. The dismissiveattitude of powergamers and 'leets' towards entertainers was prevalent before the hologrind.

Message Edited by Beery on 07-18-2004 08:52 AM



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Since June 2004, running one of the game's first completely nonviolent characters. Testing the limits of non-combat MMORPG play and trying to have fun into the bargain (although the developers make it difficult).

Combat is no longer compulsory.
Straker_Atrella
Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:50 am
#26
Beery,

If you notice, I was quoting Aleyos post, not yours.


Her post made the multiplayer implications I was hinting at.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Droid Vendor at Resurection near Theed on Naboo -5757 6222. Both carry a wide variety of maxed Droids, I also carry every type of Droid and Droid supply.

*Straker Atrella: Dark Jedi * Atrella's Wench: Master Droid Engineer / Artisan / Scout / Merchant * Dark Vortex: Ranger / Rifleman * Havana:Musician / Dancer / Image Design * Enigmatica : Doctor / Swordsman* CrazyEyes: Role playing BH.
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