Merchant Archive
Thread: 'Hypocritical?' or How Deep, How Wide?
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Areriye
Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:03 pm
#1
Alright... so we're going to have to have to have the proper number of boxes trained in order to have a vendor. Fair enough. I have trained to match the number of vendors I intend on using.
But what of ad barking? Registering on the map? 'Place Merchant Tent' skill? Or even placing clothing of my choice on my vendor at hiring 3 or 4?
If I go up advertising, register my vendors and teach them basic ad barking techniques, if I then drop advertising, will my vendors remain registered? Will they still turn on their bases like ballerinas and shout what goods they carry at passerbys, even if they are outside? 
And what if I drop a tent at efficiency 4, then drop efficiency? Will my tent burst into flames with all my helpless vendors inside? If I go up hiring to place armor on my trusty vendors then lose hiring, will they then go back to their ugly randomly generated outfits?
Because to me, it is hypocritical to say you must have the proper boxes trained to place and keep a vendor then not keep this consistant throughout the Merchant tree. I'm tired of hearing the argument that every other profession makes you drop skills when you lose the box. This, of course, all depends on your point of view. It could just as easily be argued that the management tree is required to 'manage' my vendors and that dropping the box negates my ability to manage them (remove them and put them elsewhere).
Also, a master dancer can drop a cantina and drop the master block... the cantina then does not burst into flames; the dancer just isn't allowed to place any more cantinas at that point.Please tell me how this is any different.
I know a lot of people feel strongly about it because they've gotten used to 'doing it the right way', and my hat's off to you. But the rest of us like to actually enjoy the game and not have SP wasted just to keep a vendor from imploding.
WizardTB
Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:17 pm
#2
My personal opinion is that if a character drops prerequest skills, the event that requires those skills should auto-correct (after an email notification and a week for the player to address the issue). After all...dropping skills doesn't happen by accident, it is a player's choice.
For example, Bleep the Artisan takes Business III and places a vendor. Cool, he can start selling stuff now. If Bleep drops Business III, an email should be sent informing him that he no longer meets the requirements and the vendor will be deleted in 7 days (like is currently done with Civic structures when the city drops in rank). If Bleep really wants to keep the vendor he had best relearn Business III.
The same would apply for structures...if a Merchant places a vendor tent and then drops Efficiency IV, he should get a warning message and the tent (including all the vendors inside) would go poof in a week. In this instance, it would be nice for a warning email to generate for every person that has a vendor in the structure.
Just my two cents,
Mordo Nimblefingers - Master Merchant (Ahazi)
Blurb - soon-to-be Master Merchant (Ahazi)
Songe
Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:17 pm
#3
Structures are different it seems. I don't think it is a big deal personally if people get to keep them, they take lots anyway. As for advertizing etc,I guessit will be working the same way, that is, if you surrender the skills you will lose them as well. It's what bothers me the most actually, people not only keeping vendors but also staying on the map...
Message Edited by Songe on 06-17-2004 07:18 PM
Areriye
Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:32 pm
#4
Songe wrote:
As for advertizing etc,I guessit will be working the same way,
That's not been mentioned. All that's been banded aorund is that you have to have the proper number of boxes for whatever number of vendors you have.
BountyBlunter
Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:27 am
#5
Areriye wrote:
Things and...
Because to me, it is hypocritical to say you must have the proper boxes trained to place and keep a vendor then not keep this consistant throughout the Merchant tree.
That's not been mentioned. All that's been banded aorund is that you have to have the proper number of boxes for whatever number of vendors you have.
... Check your facts ... Tsk, Tsk.
1 Exploit Merchant Skill Point Exploitation
Currently it is possible to set up your merchant tent. Get your vendors, set your advertising. Dress the vendors and then surrender all merchant skills and business skills without any effect. You are then able to run your merchant enterprise without any merchant skills until you need to change some aspect of your shop. Many merchants feel this is unfair to them and allows people to use those skills for other crafting professions or combat professions which is against the spirit of the skill point system.
Currently it is possible to set up your merchant tent. Get your vendors, set your advertising. Dress the vendors and then surrender all merchant skills and business skills without any effect. You are then able to run your merchant enterprise without any merchant skills until you need to change some aspect of your shop. Many merchants feel this is unfair to them and allows people to use those skills for other crafting professions or combat professions which is against the spirit of the skill point system.
JeCy
Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:57 am
#6
i think you should have all the boxes you use, the only exeption i can see to that is hiring.. I look at it this way,, if i spend all my time advertising and getting uniforms made and i decide now i have my vendors, (merchants) to sell my goods, i should be able to drop it to start an add campain..
now this could have a decay time,.. say a vendor will quit, there uniforms wear out ect.. maybe to keep your uniforms up to spec or keep the vendor working, (merchant from quiting) he will need a raise in more maintance (money Sink)
This would do 2 things,, allow that single vendor merchant to get a really cool vendor that they wanted to sell there stuff at an added cost but do it in style,, like that music shop that has athat odd fellow working the register thats been there for years.
Or as a master merchant you just hire the next guy akk dont have to pay the guy more money and just hire someone else, and sure your a master merchant big stores give ya new uniforms after a time. (when outfit decays they just put on a new one)
Things will eventually decay far enough where the person may have to climb the hiring line again, but lose there place at the top of the add chain.. to get there vendors back up to spec,,
This would keep the skills where they belong, and also make Rp'n a merchant with lesser skills more fun to play..
Je'Cy Dax, Radiant
ZeroRyouko
Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:17 pm
#7
Yeah, all that otherstuff might still be usable after the fix. And itwould be nice if theycorrected it in a fair way somehow. But none of the things you mention in your post are as fundamentally important to the Merchant profession as owning vendors are.
The advantage gained from keeping vendors you don't have the skill points for isquite a bitlarger than the advantage of a vendor keeping his fancy tailored clothes without the skill points. One is profession breaking, andthe otheris so unimportant that I doubt the Devs will bother with it. (Look at how long it is taking them to fix vendors.)
Vendors, in and of themselves, are what the profession is about. How they are dressed, how much their maintenance is, whether you canplace a tent for them; that's all just icing on the cake. They make the profession more fun, but it's not whypeople become Merchants in the first place. People become Merchants, and devote the skill points to it,because they want a vendor to sell their (or other people's) goods.
Lina - Master Merchant, and happy to keep all the skills for it.
Areriye
Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:44 pm
#8
Well, to hell with 'immersion' and realism. I play this game for fun... merchant is not fun.
Master crafters should be able to sell their wares without having to rely on the remainder of the player base for everything. We've already limited ourselves in combat and in other pursuits... there should be a more functional way of moving our wares than selling stuff out of backpacks in starports or stretching our SP even further to accomodate vendors and/or having some viable way of moving stock.
I'm sure a majority of the player base feels this way.
p4Samwise
Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:40 pm
#9
Since the odds of scrapping/consolidating professions at this stage of the game is slim at best, consider approaching the problem from another angle: hypothetically, how could a Merchant class be designed such that it could provide a useful service to YOU, the crafter, and make YOUR game more fun, without you having to be your own merchant?
Balkstar
Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:13 am
#10
Areriye wrote:
Alright... so we're going to have to have to have the proper number of boxes trained in order to have a vendor. Fair enough. I have trained to match the number of vendors I intend on using.
But what of ad barking? Registering on the map? 'Place Merchant Tent' skill? Or even placing clothing of my choice on my vendor at hiring 3 or 4?
If I go up advertising, register my vendors and teach them basic ad barking techniques, if I then drop advertising, will my vendors remain registered? Will they still turn on their bases like ballerinas and shout what goods they carry at passerbys, even if they are outside?
And what if I drop a tent at efficiency 4, then drop efficiency? Will my tent burst into flames with all my helpless vendors inside? If I go up hiring to place armor on my trusty vendors then lose hiring, will they then go back to their ugly randomly generated outfits?
Because to me, it is hypocritical to say you must have the proper boxes trained to place and keep a vendor then not keep this consistant throughout the Merchant tree. I'm tired of hearing the argument that every other profession makes you drop skills when you lose the box. This, of course, all depends on your point of view. It could just as easily be argued that the management tree is required to 'manage' my vendors and that dropping the box negates my ability to manage them (remove them and put them elsewhere).
Also, a master dancer can drop a cantina and drop the master block... the cantina then does not burst into flames; the dancer just isn't allowed to place any more cantinas at that point.Please tell me how this is any different.
I know a lot of people feel strongly about it because they've gotten used to 'doing it the right way', and my hat's off to you. But the rest of us like to actually enjoy the game and not have SP wasted just to keep a vendor from imploding.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!
(under breath, trying not to explode) The Devs have this high on the priority list to fix. It shall be fixed soon.
You obviously have not seen Samwise and my debates on this. I suggest those readings if you have time.
Message Edited by Balkstar on 06-18-2004 12:18 PM
Balkstar
Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:15 am
#11
Areriye wrote:
Well, to hell with 'immersion' and realism. I play this game for fun... merchant is not fun.
Master crafters should be able to sell their wares without having to rely on the remainder of the player base for everything. We've already limited ourselves in combat and in other pursuits... there should be a more functional way of moving our wares than selling stuff out of backpacks in starports or stretching our SP even further to accomodate vendors and/or having some viable way of moving stock.
I'm sure a majority of the player base feels this way.
Are we playing the same game?
It just so happens that there is an element in the game that MAKES you rely on other people in the game if true successs is to be achieved. It is a Massively Mutiplayer RPG after all.It's the reason CH's were nerfed so early. It's the reason that some professions need items from other professions to be successful. (WUK's and AUK's for Smugglers anyone?, Organic resources for Docs?)
If you want to do the game solo, be my guest. That or else drop Merchant and sell wholsale, since you seem to hate being one. Just don't cry about it, causeyou aren't getting sympathy here.
Areriye
Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:39 am
#12
In FF XI, you could choose to craft on the side, if you wished. You could spend time hunting the appropriate materials, then leveling your way through basic armors (that sold well to the lower ranks, something we don't see in crafting profs over here... if you're not master, you can't make anything that is going to sell). You could sell at the auction house (imagine a bazaar with no cap) or you could turn yourself into a vendor and people could buy staright from your inventory.
And this system worked just fine. The only detraction from your combat class was the time you spent gathering materials and crafting.
Over here, the system only encourages a borked economy. When you know a certain percentage of people rely on you to make their business work, you will set your price about where the rich and lazy folks are willing to pay. In a perfect system, sure... interdependance would be fine. But when folks start offering 100 cpu to swallow up all the available wooly hide onyour server or arranging their harvestors so you can't drop your stuff anywhere near a good deposit, etc., it makes one hesitant to want to have to depend on someone else for yet another aspect of your profession.
God bless the tailors... they've been a pleasure to work with. But I fear the few available merchants will become greedy like the rangers/scouts, and the costs of using someone's vendor is going to cut deeply into one's profit margin, making elite crafting professions even lessworthwhile to concern myself with.
My only hope at this point, being an economics student, is that enough people will take up merchant to fill the demand of vendors... in reality, people will most likely avoid it as merchants are generally considered somewhere below crafting and above politician and image designer on the 'fun' totem pole.
Areriye
Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:00 pm
#13
hakk wrote:
Nothing will happen if you drop advertising, but you won't be able to change a thing...
Well, that's my point... well, before I went on a rant rampage... keeping the benefit of advertising 3 after dropping advertising is no diferent thankeeping the benefit of management IVafter dropping it. It's a hypocritical fix, of sorts.
But whatever... 
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