Merchant Archive
Thread: Not an economic game :
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Bey
Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:22 am
#1
Sadly, this is true. But I must say that SWG has had the best economy in any game I have played so far.
But yes, the infinitely generated cash from missions is sloshing around the economy and causing massive inflation among those who have the cash, effectively excluding those who have more realistic amounts of cash earned from the game economy instead of missions, from buying rare items etc.
When you get right down to it, the problem is that the mission givers are not part of the economy. The money they give, has not been gained from the player economy, and are not backed in any way by tangible goods.
If the NPC's were part of the economy, running industries, trading with players for goods and resources and gaining the money they pay for missions that way, it might work.
But as long as you can produce never ending money from nothing, you will have inflation.
I dont know if we ever will get a game with a fully working economy, but we do get a little closer for every generation 
But I'll bet you a Jawa beer you will never get such a game from big companies like SOE. They and other large companies are only interested in having the bare minimum needed to get people to pay to play. Innovation is only done by small game companies who dare to take risks on new concepts. Like eGenesis who made A Tale In The Desert, a 100% crafting oriented game that does not even have an official currency. Players can make money, but the value of those money would have to be backed by goods if they should have any value at all It is the closest to a realistic economy in any MMOG yet.
It is the closest to a realistic economy in any MMOG yet.
Wire3k
Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:04 am
#2
Hmmm, funny - my prices haven't changed since release. Not everyone decides folks have too much money and gouges. The best way to fight THAT kind of inflation is refuse to pay prices that are too high either in resources, or goods.
Game economies aren't necessarily like Real World ones - and taking that analogy too far can get you into trouble as well.
Now - you want a game that money still really means something a few years out from release - look at Camelot.
But I digress.
Money pouring in from the ether has to eventually go out the same way. Not having NPCs serve a function has been a problem, NPCs are very valuable to suck money back out into the ether from whence it came. In SWG we have travel, insurance, taxes, maintanence, rent. Basically the NPC drain is in the form of cost of doing business whether that business be crafting, home ownership or fighting. What is severly lacking is FUN ways to blow your excess cash. The gambling could have been very successful IMHO - if it was a little more exciting than text popping up on a screen. Why don't they have pod races people could compete in? Why don't they have NPCs that could color items in colors that crafters don't have for a hefty fee? Why aren't they selling more luxury items - or at least the schematics for a tidy sum (like the pictures in bestine)? Tons of options here, these are only a few.
There are lots of other things that could also be done - the only necessary requirement would be that it shouldn't compete with any niche players occupy, and be totally optional, and if you want players to indulge - fun.
Money in a virtual world is necessary - but not that much of it. Once basic needs are met - you then get to the point of it ceasing to be important as what is it's most important function - a counter. Unless there is something you can DO with that wealth it's just so many numbers on a screen. You can't eat gold, wear it, fight with it or live in it - least not the excess that is what people perceive as the problem.
You can envision a game economy like a bathtub with the faucet turned on. The bottom drain is open - a little, drawing some of the water down. That bottom drain is your necessary operating capital, taxes, etc. The top overflow drain are your luxuries - fun things - intangibles to display wealth and success. The water left inbetween the two is what's in players hands and circulates between them. Problems occur when the tub fills faster than both drains can draw it down - and it overflows.
Without larger topdrain FUN things - yes, SWG will eventually get into the overflow state, but it's not quite there yet. People having money isn't the problem - not having anything to spend the money ON is a huge problem.
At the moment - lack of things wearing out in many cases is a far greater threat to the crafter/merchant than the economy. To keep the water circulating in the tub (which is all most players see as the economy) replacement of goods and consumables are necessary for repeat business. They've been workin on that part steadily - it just don't all work as advertised. Decay is an extremely delicate balance. Too much and people feel like they are constantly replacing items and it gets tiresome, too little - and crafters run out of customers.
So far, they've managed to dodge the bullet of barter. I truly expected by now for money to be of absolutely no worth and a barter system firmly in place like in EQ. Having vendors at launch I believe helped dodge this - or at least delay it. Also, having most things crafted and not dropped also helped. Money is a human construct to make 'bartering' easier. I can trade you a dozen eggs for a ham - but what if you don't want or need eggs? I am however starting to see a barter system partially develop in the higher end drops. Since those are fairly new and limited yet - only time will tell if they put in more - or how aggressive that market will become. While it's entirely possible to have a barter economy that thrives - it does have the effect of making gold even more worthless. Again, money is only as valuable as what it can purchase.
Message Edited by Wire3k on 04-16-2004 05:07 AM
Wire3k
Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:05 am
#3
grrr double posts - I AM logged on, what's witht he boards lately?
Message Edited by Wire3k on 04-16-2004 05:05 AM
Naufragus
Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:56 am
#4
Bey wrote:
But as long as you can produce never ending money from nothing, you will have inflation.
i am sure my opnion is OUTLANDISH but....
THE MONEY SINKS CAUSE INFLATION.....everytime it costs more to just live in this game prices go up.....everymoney sink makes me raise my prices to cover it...
but i really dont see this wild inflation people speak of...if anything things are going DOWN DOWN DOWN in price to the point it is really pointless to craft as the profit isnt worth the trouble
The devs are also causing inflation by adding these LOOT drops that crafter s need....it is riduculas that you have to pay 100K for a piece of leather....but its impossible for most crafters to acquire these things on their own..so basically the combat types can sell them for what ever...so it its costing me 200K just to make an item i am going to charge 400K for it...
everytime the devs make a change it further wrecks the economy...they need to just start the engine going and then butt out...
sorry but in real life economies there are haves and have nots....i believe in social darwinism..if you cant cut it dont complain to the state....all we would end up with is some socialest type society of equility where we all have nothing but arte equal in our mediocracy...
DocSavag
Fri Apr 16, 2004 10:39 am
#5
There has been inflation in resource markets at least on my server. The change to the bazaar allows people to sell their 1000 stack of mediocre steel for 6k now instead of 3k as they did before. Sure some people are still keeping the prices down but many aren't because people are paying the higher prices.
Tarnak_Archvold
Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:36 am
#6
I think it is logical that when there is an unlimited amount of credit coming IN to the system, there should be a way to send unlimited amounts of credit out of the system again.
There is not. But there could easily be made one.
Take all the new weapons that have been added lately, they was all made as loot drops or quest rewords. So a way for combat classes to get credit from the crafters. But the only place for the crafters to get the credit is from the combat classes (no high paying crafting missions). As a result crafters HAVE to increase thair prices if they wand to affront the new stuff the combat classes are finding.
Now if all the new schematics and loot drop was brought of NPC's, they would become luxuries, it would be something a WS could go out and buy if he had an more credit then he needed, and if he had customers that was in the marked for luxury weapons.
Why can the Devs not se this?
There is not. But there could easily be made one.
Take all the new weapons that have been added lately, they was all made as loot drops or quest rewords. So a way for combat classes to get credit from the crafters. But the only place for the crafters to get the credit is from the combat classes (no high paying crafting missions). As a result crafters HAVE to increase thair prices if they wand to affront the new stuff the combat classes are finding.
Now if all the new schematics and loot drop was brought of NPC's, they would become luxuries, it would be something a WS could go out and buy if he had an more credit then he needed, and if he had customers that was in the marked for luxury weapons.
Why can the Devs not se this?
Tarnak_Archvold
Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:42 am
#7
Edit: Deleted Doublet posting.
Message Edited by Tarnak_Archvold on 04-16-2004 08:42 PM
OlivierLaguerre
Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:40 pm
#8
This game leaks an economical stability, any economist can say you that an healthy economic society couldn’t exist with too much cash.
Basically, in SWG it is like any one could make money, in our world only state can make money and they control the amount of cash running on the economy.
So you must make something to stop the inflation, this kill all crafter and merchant role, no commercial war could be done, no advertising campaign...
Basically, in SWG it is like any one could make money, in our world only state can make money and they control the amount of cash running on the economy.
So you must make something to stop the inflation, this kill all crafter and merchant role, no commercial war could be done, no advertising campaign...
EnigmaAB
Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:37 pm
#9
Actually, one of the largest influxes of money is the credit duping. Even though fewer people do it, those that do generate a LOT of money.
As for a money sink, give me a way to build a palace. Make a garden cost 5 million, a central structure 10 million, etc. What else am I going to do with 50 million credits? I *like* trophies. I want something that few others will have.
As for a money sink, give me a way to build a palace. Make a garden cost 5 million, a central structure 10 million, etc. What else am I going to do with 50 million credits? I *like* trophies. I want something that few others will have.
P__Day
Fri Apr 16, 2004 4:47 pm
#10
though i relize that 200k for the heavy leather and other loot components is a pretty hefty price that will force you to charge more for you goods, but on the other hand i see alot of vendorsselling locked containers for 6k and upwards, and slicing the locked containers s the only way for novice smugglers to get slicing xp, yet when we are masters few are willing to pay decent for our services.you need something like 60 containers to get slicing2, thats 360k buying locked containers at 6k pr container, and when you pay200k for an ingredient you can sell the finished product and recoup you losses we cant.
Tarnak_Archvold
Sat Apr 17, 2004 3:25 pm
#11
P__Day wrote:
though i relize that 200k for the heavy leather and other loot components is a pretty hefty price that will force you to charge more for you goods, but on the other hand i see alot of vendors selling locked containers for 6k and upwards, and slicing the locked containers s the only way for novice smugglers to get slicing xp, yet when we are masters few are willing to pay decent for our services. you need something like 60 containers to get slicing 2, thats 360k buying locked containers at 6k pr container, and when you pay 200k for an ingredient you can sell the finished product and recoup you losses we cant.
That is because many put you in the same boat as merchants, "you do not make anything, so why do you need a peace of the profit" kind of thing.
You could make the credit back on spice if you really wand to, or on selling faction points and whatever.
Wire3k
Sun Apr 18, 2004 5:20 am
#12
Havok3060 wrote:
Ive been saying this for a long time . Luke said he could buy his own ship for 20k ! I cant even buy my own speeder for that price ! This defently dosent make the game StarWarsy
heheh - everytime I read a comment like this I think back of what 20k was WORTH when starwars was first released. It's a tad more than you think of 20k today friend.
holitus
Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:58 am
#13
Notice how things always break in the star wars universe (hyperdrive, blasters, droids, etc.). I've always thought the decay rates in SWG have been too lax. An easy way of reducing inflation is placing a decay rate on resources. Something like 5 units of resources for every hour out of a harvestor or vendor. This would reduceresources merchant stockpiles and cause merchants to move merchandise. In addition, a quicker decay rate for all items would make the galaxy's economy more fluid. Just a thought.
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