Merchant Archive

Thread: Timeline for fixes

Mkappus
Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:54 am
#1

Does anyone know the timeline for the vendor fixes? Right now here is what I see listed:

http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/team_comments.jsp?id=61953&page=Team%20Comments



  • Mini Publish 9.2
  • Crafting/ Entertainer Quests
  • Merchant: Remove Empty Vendors from Planetary Map

  • Mini Publish 10.1


    Top CS/ QA/ Correspondents' issues


    In the past it said


    http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/team_comments.jsp?id=61526&page=Team%20Comments


    Publish 11


    GCW Revamp


    As mentioned above, this revamp is going to transform the GCW into the "elder game" for high-end players. Runesabre is working very hard to ensure that everyone - regardless of profession - has a role they can play in the GCW. Again, more details to come as the design takes shape.


    Merchant Vendors Revamp



    I am a current master merchant and plan on keeping it. The main thing I am concerned about is the possibility of the 150 item limit per vendor. As an architect and resource seller I typically have 200-500 items up for sale. I split resources into 5k, 10k, 25k, and 100k blocks, and I have furniture in single items, crates of different sizes etc....


    In the last letter the only thing specifically mentioned is the removing empty vendors form planetary maps. But are the vendor fixes considered top correspondent issues? I would be surprised if the correspondent was for the 150 item cap.


    I know there are tons and tons of posts on this, but most are so long and filled with arguments it isn't worth going through. I am curious what is confirmed for when.




    Goliath
    Master Shipwright, Master Architect, Master Artisan
    -=V=- Shipworks 3 Locations Theed, Coronet and
    Tatooine by Krayt Graveyard 5909, 4373

    3 vendors at GF6 11/11 - Shipwright, Architect, Resources
    Haruspex77
    Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:41 pm
    #2






    DocSavag wrote:

    Those publishes look about the same as the information that I have. I don't have a final proposal on vendor item limits. I continue to press for a final proposal but the way these things work they usually don't give us one until it is either on test or almost on test. I know that it won't be 150 items at Master Merchant. What I dont' know is what the upper limit will be or what the lower limit will be at the bottom of the tree.




    I keep struggling with the suspicion that it is because they really don't know, thatdesign details area random choice by whoever writes the code. There is discouragingly little evidence that any design material gets written down before the coding starts. One positive note on this subject is that Green Marine in a smuggler posting actually mentioned writing down a design proposal!


    Hopefully, you could have phrased your comment "I know that it will be more than 150 items at Master..." The risk that it comes out less than had better be so low as to be ignorable!


    DocSavag
    Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:18 pm
    #3






    Haruspex77 wrote:





    DocSavag wrote:

    Those publishes look about the same as the information that I have. I don't have a final proposal on vendor item limits. I continue to press for a final proposal but the way these things work they usually don't give us one until it is either on test or almost on test. I know that it won't be 150 items at Master Merchant. What I dont' know is what the upper limit will be or what the lower limit will be at the bottom of the tree.




    I keep struggling with the suspicion that it is because they really don't know, thatdesign details area random choice by whoever writes the code. There is discouragingly little evidence that any design material gets written down before the coding starts. One positive note on this subject is that Green Marine in a smuggler posting actually mentioned writing down a design proposal!


    Hopefully, you could have phrased your comment "I know that it will be more than 150 items at Master..." The risk that it comes out less than had better be so low as to be ignorable!








    Its really not possible to manage a project like SWG without pretty detailed design documentation. I suspect the real reason they don't share it with us is that they have been bitten far too many times by a change late in the process that ended up contradicting something they had said (in passing even) in public. They are very gun shy becuase the average person has no real understanding or appreciation of how things work in a project like this.




    ----------------------------------
    Chataka Windae
    Rifleman/Combat Medic
    CEO, Windae Enterprises
    Mesric Sanctuary Founder



    p4Samwise
    Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:06 pm
    #4






    DocSavag wrote:

    Its really not possible to manage a project like SWG without pretty detailed design documentation.







    Actually, we have evidence that they don't have any such thing. For example:


    "The reasoning for limiting merchant vendors will forever be hidden in history’s shadows. It was a decision that was made during beta and no one remembers *exactly* why."


    (from TH's most recent 19 Answers)


    Does this sound like a project with "detailed design documentation"?


    Never mind the evidence we see in the game itself, like schematic ingredients that don't spawn any more (e.g. the droid toolbelt)...



    "Prettiest shim on Bria!" - Sev
    Certified "cool" by the Darth Vader of Bria

    Blue glowie.
    LonelyGhost
    Mon Jun 14, 2004 7:42 pm
    #5

    There is no doubt in my mind that Raph Koster screwed this game up. Once he was out of the picture and Runesaber came on, good things started happening. I think the SWG team had been missing a good leader. I'm sure Raph has valuable skills in many areas of the gaming world, but it has been proven to me that he does not belong in the captian seat of an MMO like SWG.


    The thing I am most irritated at currently is the snails pace that things are getting done. They are making over 4 and half million dollars a MONTH on subscriptions alone. I wouldlike for LucasArts or SOny to give some of the back to SWG, and let RUnesaber hire a dozen more GreenMarine's. It all boils down to how many fingers are typing code at the same time. We need more quality people to add to the keyboard clatter in the coding rooms.


    I was looking over the schedules as well, and naturally I keep an eye on the Dev Tracker. It is my belief we wont see P9 on Live for another 2 weeks minimum, and P10 wont be around till the end of September. THat puts the GCW patch around Thanksgiving. JTL will be going into beta about October. THey said it would be a rather short Beta, and I'm sure they would love to get the boxes on the shelf for Xmas. SO JTL goes Live seconds before Xmas. THen we take 2 weeks off for the Holidays. So the SMugglers might be getting some attention around February '05, and they might get their publish around April.


    Basically, its just too slow. THey need more help.



    Crys Akkori - Merchant Engineer
    Veteren of SIN, IO, and XC - A Founder of Jaxian Bay
    Elder DE, Architect, Artisan, Chef, Merchant

    Vendor on Naboo at -7547 4635 (Fly in to Theed)

    Crafters do have decay on resources. As we use it it GOES AWAY. And when it's gone, we have to get more. - Elekae
    Raijen_ArDesh
    Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:48 pm
    #6



    p4Samwise wrote:


    DocSavag wrote:

    Its really not possible to manage a project like SWG without pretty detailed design documentation.



    Actually, we have evidence that they don't have any such thing. For example:
    "The reasoning for limiting merchant vendors will forever be hidden in history’s shadows. It was a decision that was made during beta and no one remembers *exactly* why."
    (from TH's most recent 19 Answers)
    Does this sound like a project with "detailed design documentation"?
    Never mind the evidence we see in the game itself, like schematic ingredients that don't spawn any more (e.g. the droid toolbelt)...





    The fixed the toolbelt last publish



    --
    Raijen Ar'Desh - Master Artisan/Merchant/Tailor, Not Qute Master Yet Architect, Yellow Pen
    Tolaris Ar'Desh - Master Medic. Doctor and Aspiring Fencer, Purple Pen
    "Weesa pleased to bringya desa news dat mesa, JarJar, isa now da SOE Lead Producer."
    - HalasterTheBlack

    DocSavag
    Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:38 am
    #7

    Those publishes look about the same as the information that I have. I don't have a final proposal on vendor item limits. I continue to press for a final proposal but the way these things work they usually don't give us one until it is either on test or almost on test. I know that it won't be 150 items at Master Merchant. What I dont' know is what the upper limit will be or what the lower limit will be at the bottom of the tree.





    ----------------------------------
    Chataka Windae
    Rifleman/Combat Medic
    CEO, Windae Enterprises
    Mesric Sanctuary Founder



    DocSavag
    Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:28 am
    #8






    p4Samwise wrote:





    DocSavag wrote:

    Its really not possible to manage a project like SWG without pretty detailed design documentation.







    Actually, we have evidence that they don't have any such thing. For example:


    "The reasoning for limiting merchant vendors will forever be hidden in history’s shadows. It was a decision that was made during beta and no one remembers *exactly* why."


    (from TH's most recent 19 Answers)


    Does this sound like a project with "detailed design documentation"?


    Never mind the evidence we see in the game itself, like schematic ingredients that don't spawn any more (e.g. the droid toolbelt)...





    I've never had a design document that told me "why" something was to work the way it works. Design documents typically tell you what it should do and how it should work.







    ----------------------------------
    Chataka Windae
    Rifleman/Combat Medic
    CEO, Windae Enterprises
    Mesric Sanctuary Founder



    DirtDigger
    Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:34 am
    #9





    They are making over 4 and half million dollars a MONTH on subscriptions alone





    Uhhh WOW (and where the hell would you get this info!?)


    Always been curious how many players are subscribed. For that matter - always been curious as to how many people are on server atany one time.






    <OCARSIS LOMAIN<
    OCARSIS TRADING - EXOTIC Armor - Bounty Hunter, StormTrooper, RIS
    Bestine, Tattooine,Bria
    ü -800 -4252ü


    UniformMarshal
    Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:58 am
    #10

    It was in thier friday feature, they have approx. 300,000 registered houses. If every house was owned by a person, then thats 300k x $15 = 4.5 mil, or there abouts



    ~Gennie Lightdust~
    ~Toxic Twi of Ryloth~
    ~Imperial Enforcer Location Classified~
    DocSavag
    Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:12 am
    #11






    UniformMarshal wrote:
    It was in thier friday feature, they have approx. 300,000 registered houses. If every house was owned by a person, then thats 300k x $15 = 4.5 mil, or there abouts





    That assumes the ratio of houses to players (actively paying for service) is 1:1. It isn't.




    ----------------------------------
    Chataka Windae
    Rifleman/Combat Medic
    CEO, Windae Enterprises
    Mesric Sanctuary Founder



    Mkappus
    Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:23 am
    #12

    To get this back on track a little. There are 3 issues I am aware of


    1. Removing empty vendors from the global map. That is expected shortly after publish 9. I expect this to happen.


    2. Coding to make "poached vendors" inoperable until the person gets their skills back. I had assumed this was in the vendor revamp discussed in an an old state of the game post. However, the most recent state of the game post does not mention the vendor revamp at all. Is this a major correspondent issue? If so it might be in the correspondent fixes.


    3. The vendor item limit is what scares me the most. The devs want to do this for performance issues Im sure, so it is probably highest priority.



    Goliath
    Master Shipwright, Master Architect, Master Artisan
    -=V=- Shipworks 3 Locations Theed, Coronet and
    Tatooine by Krayt Graveyard 5909, 4373

    3 vendors at GF6 11/11 - Shipwright, Architect, Resources
    p4Samwise
    Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:45 am
    #13






    DocSavag wrote:





    p4Samwise wrote:


    Never mind the evidence we see in the game itself, like schematic ingredients that don't spawn any more (e.g. the droid toolbelt)...






    I've never had a design document that told me "why" something was to work the way it works. Design documents typically tell you what it should do and how it should work.




    In certain areas, such as UI design and game balance (and skill sets fall under "game balance"), the design document should always include WHY a particular change was made, since the reasoning behind the design itself is part of "how it should work". Otherwise, progress that was made gets undone later.


    It's also part of good SCM process to associate functionality changes like that to defect reports or enhancement requests that have complete detail (what the original problem was, and how this change will fix it). Changes like that should never be made without documented reason.


    Also, that droid toolbelt thing... cmon now. It made it to live servers. Where was the design document that said what ingredients were needed for that schematic? Wouldn't someone have noticed somewhere along the way that one of the ingredients was no longer craftable? It seems far more likely that it was thrown in there at the last second by some grunt coder who had very minimal knowledgeof the rest of the crafting system, and was never reviewed.




    "Prettiest shim on Bria!" - Sev
    Certified "cool" by the Darth Vader of Bria

    Blue glowie.
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