Merchant Archive
Thread: Vendor NERF (Item limits) has nothing to do with DB. It has to do with controling crafters!
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Lotussutol
Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:01 pm
#1
If the exploited vendors are removed and the empty vendors are removed I would guess that LOTS of DB space will be saved.
This NERF with limiting items is being forced on us to try and counter crafters cornering the market on servers...
How many servers have the big guy that is a crafting god...on corbantis his name is Armani. He not only sells weapons and armor he sells LOTS of weapons and armor and he also stocks LOTS of weapons and armor that are not the big sellers...you need pikes you need carbines you leed pistols that are not the main ones he has it. you need armor BESIDES composite and ubesse he stocks those too.
Why is Armani such a big crafter on Corbantis you ask??? LOTS OF HARD WORK and dedication to the craft. Now SOE wants to come along and take that away so upstarts can have a chance??? I don't understand it?
Armani has three vendors in his theed location that sell weapons and armor. One is specialt items and sliced items. There are 300 to 500 items on it. Then he has a weapon vendor that has 500ish items on it. He also has a armor vendor that has 200 to 500 items on it.
When you are on Corbantis and are tired of digging through empty vendors looking for weapons and or amor you go to Armani and he has it!
With this change limiting his vendors to 110 items per...he will most likely stop selling the VAST variety of items he has and will only focus on the top two or three items that everybody wants.
That will not allow a market for upstarts because they are crafting the same two or three items everybody wants.
Armani can charge more because you know he will have your items in stock when you go to his shop. Upstarts can jump in the business by selling at a cheaper price...that is how Armani started way back in the Bestine days AROUND A YEAR AGO!!!
How many of these new crafters are going to last before they burn out? Armani has been at it for a year and enjoys what he does...I don't know how much he will enjoy stocking his vendors NON stop trying to keep up with demand.
These changes are BAD for the game and BAD for your clients!!!
If you want to allow upstarts a chance what you need to do is make it so merchants can sell more items on the bazaar and at higher prices!
Get rid of the exploited vendors...if a person does not have the skill to have any vendors or the amount they have shut them all down till they get the proper skills...
doing those two items will make a world of difference.
Now...DEV's...I know you are going to go through with limits on vendors I beg of you make it enough so that people with high traffic shops do not have to stock every dang day. What happened to not allowing the game to turn into a chore and or job...where is the FUN in the 110 item limit vendor? where does the casual player who can only stock once a week fit into your Merchant plans? They don't and you really need to think about what the limit should be! I would say 1k per vendor at Master is something we can live with!
Thanks for your time.
Message Edited by Lotussutol on 08-08-2004 09:34 PM
temptres
Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:10 pm
#2
i have to agree. the nerfing sucks
its a bad move by soe and will finish us off,
DocSavag
Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:13 pm
#3
You are right. There is more to the item limits than just database stuff. There is an economic concern. The devs think it is a serious concern to have too much of the economy in a small group of peoples control. Are they right? Probably though the people who have worked hard to get there obviously dont' see it that way and why should they? But those who are trying to break into those markets probably have a different view.
Barris
Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:13 pm
#4
Lotussutol wrote:
How many servers have the big guy that is a crafting god...on corbantis his name is Armani. He not only sells weapons and armor he sells LOTS of weapons and armor and he also stocks LOTS of weapons and armor that are not the big sellers...you need pikes you need carbines you leed pistols that are not the main ones he has it. you need armor BESIDES composite and ubesse he stocks those too.
Why is Armani such a big crafter on Corbantis you ask??? LOTS OF HARD WORK and dedication to the craft. Now SOE wants to come along and take that away so upstarts can have a chance??? I don't understand it?
Armani has three vendors in his theed location that sell weapons and armor. One is specialt items and sliced items. There are 300 to 500 items on it. Then he has a weapon vendor that has 500ish items on it. He also has a armor vendor that has 200 to 500 items on it.
Actually, if you have WS and AS, I don't think you have the skill points for legit venders... I could be wrong though and probably am.
Lotussutol
Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:16 pm
#5
temptres wrote:
i have to agree. the nerfing sucks
its a bad move by soe and will finish us off,
Another thing that scares me is...The big crafters on servers already have 200+ million credits...why do they still craft? It sure is not the money. It is because they still have fun! If the limits hit as is...how many crafters are going to say screw this...I am going home. I don't need anymore money and crafting is not fun having to stock non stop and figureing out where they can store everything.
Then all we have is the upstart crafters that may and or may not even stick with the craft...If it is to be a player driven economy leave it alone and let us manage it and decide who we want to buy from. If it isn't to be a player driven economy well then...give us some uber loot 
Ryche_Mykola
Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:18 pm
#6
DocSavag wrote:
You are right. There is more to the item limits than just database stuff. There is an economic concern. The devs think it is a serious concern to have too much of the economy in a small group of peoples control. Are they right? Probably though the people who have worked hard to get there obviously dont' see it that way and why should they? But those who are trying to break into those markets probably have a different view.
No kidding. The person who's been playing for a week should have a full suit of Interwoven RIS Armor, a Nightsister Energy Lance, an AV-21, a 700 max damage DE-10 pistol, and 100 million inthere bank.
smaute
Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:19 pm
#7
Hm ok. Good point. Myself was close to cancelling my subscription but found taste, sense and fun in being a crafter and supporting guild and makeing people happy with nice armor. I greatly doubt I keep up business tho.
Anyhow as the heading is saying where is the point of the database issue? References are not what the issue is, space is. You can optimize the search and modelling a good DB is not that the problem if they really know what they do nor can you blame the DB for not being effective in case of retrieving references as for this issue some DB are out doing a damn good job (hmmm long sentence).
So we come back to the simply issues that either
a) they see that a license is getting to expensive cos it is charged for size, cpu, machines or whatever (as you can make a deal on how it is actually licensed and paid for)
b) they simply can't wield the load as the physical storage is at its limits and noone wants to invest more (or for the backup mechanics etc)
c) they implemented a bad design and now face issues keeping it running at all or keeping the perfomance up
Anyway it's still not my problem as paying customer, sorry to say
Being in business myself noone asks why it doesn't run, you simply have to get and keep it running That's what the deal was we engaged in a contract as I pay you for a service you not willing or able to keep up in some way.
Abide
Anyhow as the heading is saying where is the point of the database issue? References are not what the issue is, space is. You can optimize the search and modelling a good DB is not that the problem if they really know what they do nor can you blame the DB for not being effective in case of retrieving references as for this issue some DB are out doing a damn good job (hmmm long sentence).
So we come back to the simply issues that either
a) they see that a license is getting to expensive cos it is charged for size, cpu, machines or whatever (as you can make a deal on how it is actually licensed and paid for)
b) they simply can't wield the load as the physical storage is at its limits and noone wants to invest more (or for the backup mechanics etc)
c) they implemented a bad design and now face issues keeping it running at all or keeping the perfomance up
Anyway it's still not my problem as paying customer, sorry to say
Being in business myself noone asks why it doesn't run, you simply have to get and keep it running That's what the deal was we engaged in a contract as I pay you for a service you not willing or able to keep up in some way.Abide
smaute
Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:30 pm
#8
DocSavag wrote:
You are right. There is more to the item limits than just database stuff. There is an economic concern. The devs think it is a serious concern to have too much of the economy in a small group of peoples control. Are they right? Probably though the people who have worked hard to get there obviously dont' see it that way and why should they? But those who are trying to break into those markets probably have a different view.
Dang I thought I would be first poster so I didn't get this statement. Let me answer please.
I did. I actually walked in the market of long time business inhabitants (armorsmith). And although it might be more boring I can make more cash in less time killing Janta for cash. But I simply enjoy the craft.
I don't really see economics in the hand of small amount of people. I actually know plenty of crafters doing a damn nice job and I'm actually comparing them still. I really go around and visit empty vendors over and over for stuff I know that guild can't make for me.
So the issue is that the empty vendors inflict the behaviour of thinking why should I go where over and over? I know a good spot where the vendor is actually stocked. If people lack the patience or faith to keep in competition it's not on the devs to apply external mechanics to change it as IT WILL FAIL!
So no, I don't have a different view as quality will sell. No I don't see why the devs want to nerf the whole community of crafters now (after several asking to fix the merchant profession). Noone complains about empty vendors finally getting removed. We complain about makeing being a crafter a pa** in the a** as it goes along with being merchant to sell your stuff.
Abide
Tirgwystraff
Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:44 pm
#9
Barris wrote:
Yep, you're wrong
Actually, if you have WS and AS, I don't think you have the skill points for legit venders... I could be wrong though and probably am.
AS/WS/MM doesn't even require the 14 points in the domestic line either, so he could keep the survey tree if he wanted. If he wanted to keep some combat skills, he really only needs 0/0/0/4 merch to have 6 vendors
Ferrer_Roberts
Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:50 pm
#10
I have a feeling its got everything to do with DB size - but not for JTL - they will come up with another way to free up DB space then or pay to add to it.
My guess is they need the DB space for JTL BETA.
Thats why its been pushed onto Test Centre without warning and why it WILL hit live servers in less than 2 weeks.
The clue is how quick this has been sprung.
They need JTL BETA to go on time and as smooth as possible hence the panic, lack ofnormal feedback cycleand the nerf.
Rather than annoy all the players (not just merchant/crafters) they could have informed us of the problems and asked for help. If I had been asked to tidy up mycharacter and loose all the real junk we acumulate in vendors and houses I would have been happy to do so, Im sure 1000's of players would have.
Now any crafter thats left after live nerf will not have a ounce of helpfullness in them - And after all the new storage houses and storage factories go up to put excess goods inthey will be back to square one even after loosing X amount of player accounts.
Anyway I think JTL Beta is the cause of a "find DB space" panic by the devs.
Ferrer Roberts
FCORP (soon to be FCORP storage)
Mast Arch/Artisan
Barris
Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:50 pm
#11
**boggles**
Thank you for clearing that up.
Sigh. lol, the dev's are making for more trouble than what was really needed, the non legit vender thing never really caused any issues for anyone, and trying to correct it this late in the game, after what % are using this system, is just going to cause for an inflated enconomy and many pissed customers.
Torael
Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:04 pm
#12
Whether you are correct or not, there is no such thing as a monopoly, as someone "cornering the market". Someone may be an extremely well known crafter...on Lowca, you've got people like Illin or Erith for armor, Reginald for food, Ladywolff for weapons (this is just a few of the well known ones) but there are PLENTY of less well known crafters which people can and do buy from. Aside from this fact, a person would have to spend twenty hours a day doing nothing but crafting to make enough weapons/armor/food/whatever to supply literally an entire server. Just doesn't happen.
Rhalik
Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:16 pm
#13
I touched on this aspect in my thread as well, but since this one addresses it specifically I'll add some here as well.
The Basics of your or their argument about who has a chance to do what in a free-market societyare steeped in the basis of Social Systems and Politics. We'll skip those and go for a poor analogy:
If no one is allowed to be better than anyone else at anything in the game as relates to crafting and merchanting, why were Craft Skill oriented CA/AA's introduced to the game? Under their system this is entirely unfair to new players who can'tbuy or lootthem, and a situation created by the devs themselves. Thisobviously creates an unfair market advantage, because they can make better items than their peers.
Is the solution to remove all the craft skill CA/AA's from the loot tables? Also to fully imitate the vendor item limit change at the same time as the exploit removal, they should allow all the current crafters to keep any of those items they already have. (Eg. The millions of credits per day of profits they made that no one will now be able to imitate under the new system)
That samelogic applied to damn near anything else in the game is obviously flawed, why is it valid in this case?
No one in SWG can create a Monopoly in the True Sense. Why? You can't drive people out of businessusing the threat of violence,no income to support their families, cutting off their logistical supplies,and/or ruining their livesif they don't bow under. Servers that have Virtual Monopolies have them because no one cares enough to challenge the Monopolist. Through 4 months of hard work my friends and I have started making inroads in several markets and have no reason to believe we cannot continue to take market share. If we continue to work at it.
We have no uber crafting CA/AA's, we don't have millions of units ofoldUber Resources, and we started from scratch doing everything the hard way. Anyone who says they can't enter an ingame market and compete either isn't properly motivated or has no clue what they are trying to do to begin with.
I have to imagine that part of the concern is that if one of these VM's suddenly went away overnight, it might be less fun to play on a given server until someone else steps up to the plate. I think it's entirely arguable that this change will only accelerate the impact of same, while giving ZERO incentive for anyone to fill the void.
As a related aside, I would give good odds that some of the people they are concerned with dominating markets might still be doing so by having exploited the living crap out of the old harvester exploit. I can tell you one thing, when you solved that exploit, you actually made inroads for startups like us in the game having a chance to compete. That was a good change. Skip the item limit, implement everything else in the (now removed) post. Wait, watch, analyze...
Which also goes back to maybe a closer look at how those markets have been dominated would be a better option at this point. Being able to list 1000's of items does not market domination make...
/rant on
Who was in charge of designing this game's economic system that they failed to imagine the concept of aVirtual Monopoly anyway?
This type of player behaviour is not new to this title. Who designed this supposed 2nd generation MMORPG and failed to notice this behavior in previous titles? As I remember ol' Ralphy should have seen plenty of that in UO... I was there, and I saw it.
But then again, this is exactly the reason my groan of anguish was heard round the entire RedWest Campus when I saw that Ralph Koster and Verant were going to be the two key players in the implementation of our long awaited SW MMORPG. And I heard echos not mine...
Need to lookup the historical staff changes at LA and see who made that lame decision one of these days...
Now that I'm full on ranting :-) This is why I left the damn business in the first place, the powers that be have never listened to the people with a clue. And if you don't believe me, take a close look at the history of computer game publishing companiesover the last ten years... and look at the 90% genuine crap the remaining 5 or sopowers-that-be areshoving down the channel today.
/rantoff
I apologize for the rant, but I won't delete it.
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