Merchant Archive
Thread: New Artisan/Merchant Item Proposal: Vendor Crates
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Hylidex
Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:30 am
#1
Following the convention set up by TH in the smuggler forums of presenting proposals in the following format, I'm adding another one here. I chose the merchant forum, since you are the ones most likely to be affected by the proposal, and since your feedback is probably the most important.
Player Vision: New Artisan Items—Vendor Crates
Overview
A new type of container is proposed which can hold several identical items or several items in a set, solving problems of lag, transport, and vendor fraud simultaneously. These containers are single-use crates manufactured by various levels of artisans and requiring certification for use. The crates hold only specific types of items that are routinely sold in backpacks on vendors. Only specific professions have the skill to load the crates, and once the last item in the crate has been removed, it self-destructs.
Salient Details
Several simultaneous problems currently exist in the game that are addressed by this single solution
1. Vendor Fraud: Currently there is no way to see inside a backpack offered on a vendor. While this is helpful for special orders, it does lend itself to vendor fraud. An unscrupulous merchant can misrepresent the contents of the container in its description, thus selling poor quality items at a price far above the value. This happened recently to a friend of mine who purchased a buff set, only to find out that one of the buffs was substantially lower quality than the others and than the stats given in the product description.
2. Lag caused by player objects: Currently a large number of objects inside a structure, even those in locked containers and vendors, causes lag inside that structure. A region with several factories may lag severely as a result of objects inside the factories. This proposal replaces several similar or identical items with one object while still counting toward structure object limits. This allows the game to only paint one item and regard one set of stats while representing a larger number of items inside a structure.
3. Transport difficulties for crafters of component products: Crafters who make components for products made by other professions are at a disadvantage due to transport difficulties. A factory run of 40 crates sold inside a backpack currently requires 41 spaces of top-level player inventory for transport. Most players who use these items find that this is too much trouble and end up creating alts to make their components for them in their own factories. This is most evident in the relationships between bio-engineers and chefs, where bio-engineers have found themselves reduced to “schematic monkeys.” Chefs find the transport of 41 items from a factory run of nutrients to be too much of a difficulty, so they have turned to BE alts or attempting to pay BE’s to make schematics for them to do the factory runs with their own resources in their own factories. This puts the casual player and player with only one account at a much more severe disadvantage than the one already caused by decreased lot spaces and the lack of ability to collect one’s own resources. This proposal allows for simpler transport of factory runs of components, making it more likely that a crafter requiring components from another profession will buy, rather than craft, his own components.
Specifics:
With these issues in mind, a new object is proposed: a vendor crate. These crates may be placed on vendors or dropped in the bank or structures, but may not be placed inside containers. When the manufacturer creates these crates, they count as one item. When the user adds one item to the crate, it still is regarded as one item. The item count for structures increases as more items are added. In other words,t he item cost is the same as the contents within a structure. When the last item is removed from the crate, it disappears, just as factory crates do now. Only a user certified to use the item may place items into the crates, and once one item is removed, no more items may be added. These crates take several forms:
1. A Factory Pallet
Manufactured by: Novice Artisan Use certification: Master Merchant
Object cost: In top-level inventory: 1 item. In structures, vendors,or in the bank: the number of identical contents.
Contents: up to 40 identical items
Data storage: the same as one factory crate plus the number crates on the pallet.
Object cost: In top-level inventory: 1 item. In structures, vendors,or in the bank: the number of identical contents.
Contents: up to 40 identical items
Data storage: the same as one factory crate plus the number crates on the pallet.
A factory pallet is a single container manufactured by a novice artisan to contain up to 40 identical-size factory crates of a single item or up to 40 identical individual items. On a vendor or on /examine, the stats of only one item are displayed along with the number of items per crate and the number of crates on the pallet. Items may not be used directly from the pallet, but must be removed before using. Similarly, crates on the pallet must be removed before removing an item from the crate. Factories are not able to auto-pull items from the pallet.
The primary purposes of this container are for transport of a factory run of components, or for sale of a factory run on a vendor. The advantage is that the data stored are only the data for one item, reducing both server and client data storage requirements and reducing bandwidth required for passing information about the items. In order to minimize player hoarding (the reason factory crates are not already at 1000 items), the object will count against structure limits as if all the contents were individually dropped. Even so, data storage and bandwidth are the same as for a single item.
This particular item has an additional benefit since it can be made by a low-level artisan. Presumably the resource cost would be fairly small, and a small amount of experience can be earned from its manufacture. This allows a novice artisan to grind a product which can be sold for a small profit—giving novice artisans a purpose in grinding.
2. An Armor Rack
Manufactured by: Master Artisan Certification: Master Merchant or Master Armorsmith
Object cost: In top-level inventory: one item. Otherwise the same as the number of items on the rack.
Contents: One item each of identical-stat armor components up to a full set of armor.
Data storage: The same as one armor item plus a checklist of armor items (10 one-bit flags)
Object cost: In top-level inventory: one item. Otherwise the same as the number of items on the rack.
Contents: One item each of identical-stat armor components up to a full set of armor.
Data storage: The same as one armor item plus a checklist of armor items (10 one-bit flags)
This item allows the sale of full or partial sets of armor in which the components have identical stats. The vendor description or /examine shows the stats of the armor and the armor type, just as it would if only one item were being sold, along with a checklist of components it contains. Certain armor types will not use every component. When dropped in a house, it displays as a full set of armor of the type it contains—oriented appropriately.
3. A Buff Crate
Manufactured by: Tier 4 Artisan Certification: Novice Merchant or Master Doctor
Object Cost: In top-level inventory: six items. Otherwise, the number of the contents.
Contents: Identical factory crates of each of six buffs, or six uncrated buff stims.
Data storage: The same as a full buff set, plus number of crates of each and the number of items in a crate of each.
Object Cost: In top-level inventory: six items. Otherwise, the number of the contents.
Contents: Identical factory crates of each of six buffs, or six uncrated buff stims.
Data storage: The same as a full buff set, plus number of crates of each and the number of items in a crate of each.
This item allows the sale of a full set of buffs, either in or out of factory crates. Since it is impossible to make six identical buffs of different stats, data must be stored for each buff type. As a result, the object cost is a little higher than for the other vendor crates.
4. A Live Creature Sack
Manufactured by: Novice Artisan Certification: Novice Artisan and Novice Scout
Object cost: One item in all locations
Contents: up to 100 identical samples of live creatures (live bees, butterflies, glowzies, bats, flies, moths, etc.) Only one creature type can be stored in one sack.
Data storage: The same as one sample of live bees plus the number of samples in the sack.
Object cost: One item in all locations
Contents: up to 100 identical samples of live creatures (live bees, butterflies, glowzies, bats, flies, moths, etc.) Only one creature type can be stored in one sack.
Data storage: The same as one sample of live bees plus the number of samples in the sack.
The main purpose of this crate is to allow stacking of these samples. Since they must be collected one at a time, hoarding is really not a problem. This is another item that may be used for experience points by a novice artisan and then sold for a profit.
The Good and the Bad
The primary advantage of these objects is to allow the stacking of certain identical item types for sale on vendors in a way that does not heavily cost toward vendor item limits or in terms of demands on server, client, or bandwidth. They should improve game performance by stacking similar data types while still costing toward structure limits.
They should reduce vendor fraud by displaying their contents just as a factory crate would. They should allow easy transport of component items from a component manufacturer to a final product manufacturer without opening the door to item hoarding, thus protecting the component manufacturers, improving in-game commerce, and providing some protection for the casual and one-account user.
Since much of the behavior of these crates is similar to the factory crate, presumably some of the factory crate code’s subroutines could be used.
The reduction in object rendering should further help improve game performance, while being aesthetically more pleasing.
Disadvantages include looted items that are left out: Janta blood, rancor bile, armor segments, etc. Limits had to be placed somewhere.
Factory product hoarding seems to have been a major concern in game design, and this has been given as a reason for not increasing the size of factory crates. While there are some in-game work-arounds for hoarders already, this does not appear to have become a problem currently. The only way this could be an aid to hoarders is if they chose to use top-level inventory for their storage. While vendors are currently used for storage anyway, top-level inventory has a smaller capacity than the smallest of player structures, this limiting this possibility significantly.
Another potential misuse of this object arises from grenades. A vendor crate would allow a player to walk around with a monstrous supply of grenades in top-level inventory. I’m not sure this would necessarily adversely affect game play, but if it would, then these items would have to be excluded from the factory pallet. A player can already walk around with 160 crates of grenades in inventory and a backpack if he wants to, but not many players choose to do that.
Skill Tree Changes
Novice Artisan: a factory pallete, a live creature sack, a live creature sack loading certification
Tier 4 Artisan: a buff crate
Master Artisan: an armor rack
Novice Merchant: a buff crate loading certification
Master Merchant: a factory pallet loading certification, an armor rack loading certification
Master Armorsmith: an armor rack loading certification
Master Doctor: a buff crate loading certification
Novice Scout: a live creature sack loading certification
Tier 4 Artisan: a buff crate
Master Artisan: an armor rack
Novice Merchant: a buff crate loading certification
Master Merchant: a factory pallet loading certification, an armor rack loading certification
Master Armorsmith: an armor rack loading certification
Master Doctor: a buff crate loading certification
Novice Scout: a live creature sack loading certification
Message Edited by Hylidex on 01-14-2005 08:14 AM
Cafa
Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:42 am
#2
I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but the Architects have offered virtually everyone of those suggestions for 15 months straight before finally being told NO and STOP ASKING on a response in the (apparently) defunked "10 Questions" series.
Fivo Asia
Hylidex
Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:12 pm
#3
No harm done. BE's had the same NO and STOP ASKING for virtually all of their requests, too, and the profession is dying quickly as a result.
I have a great deal of sympathy for the architects in this matter. Their profession had experienced some severe blows, too.
The vendor system clearly needs attention. It has been buggy since the outset, and it is excessively cumbursome both to maintain and to use. My hope is that with the increase in developers and revisiting old issues a second look will be taken at this sort of suggestion. The format was set out by TH himself not all that long ago.
I appreciate all constructive comments--even disagreement. That's what the forums are all about.
DocSavag
Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:37 am
#4
I love the idea of tools to aid in moving inventory from place to place. However any such plan will have to include some method for preventing the use of that to add more storage to the game. I don't believe the devs think there needs to be more storage in the game and they certainly don't think merchants who have access to a 4k item vendor system at Master have a need for more items in the game.
I know everyone WANTS more storage. To date the devs haven't been open to that.
I know everyone WANTS more storage. To date the devs haven't been open to that.
Hylidex
Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:33 am
#5
Yes, I agree. That is why the item count returns to the number of the contents when dropped in a structure or in the bank. In essence, it only uses computer resources of one item while counting the same toward structure contents as the items would outside the container.
That was also the reason for certifications (to prevent misuse) and the ruleof disallowing further loading once the first item has been removed.
Like a cellophane wrap, it is there just for packaging, and it is destroyed on opening.
Message Edited by Hylidex on 01-13-2005 09:34 AM
DocSavag
Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:51 am
#6
I actually missed that line. That is a good start. The only concern then I would have is that it would allow me as a merchant to store 40x the my item limit provided the items I wanted to store were all factory crates. That raises my storage potentially on a 4k vendor to 160,000.
While in practice it probably doesn't mean that in most cases it would be possible to hoard 160k components on a vendor indefinitely....
If the item count still counts against my vendor limit that is resolved. If this is truly about convienience and grouping and not item storage that shouldn't be a problem.
While in practice it probably doesn't mean that in most cases it would be possible to hoard 160k components on a vendor indefinitely....
If the item count still counts against my vendor limit that is resolved. If this is truly about convienience and grouping and not item storage that shouldn't be a problem.
Message Edited by DocSavag on 01-13-2005 11:51 AM
Hylidex
Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:54 pm
#7
DocSavag wrote:
I actually missed that line. That is a good start. The only concern then I would have is that it would allow me as a merchant to store 40x the my item limit provided the items I wanted to store were all factory crates. That raises my storage potentially on a 4k vendor to 160,000.
While in practice it probably doesn't mean that in most cases it would be possible to hoard 160k components on a vendor indefinitely....
If the item count still counts against my vendor limit that is resolved. If this is truly about convienience and grouping and not item storage that shouldn't be a problem.
Message Edited by DocSavag on 01-13-2005 11:51 AM
It definitely isn't about item storage, but about transport convenience and visibility in grouped items on a vendor.
I hadn't set it up to count against vendor limits, since I was under the impression that items in a backpack didn't count against the limit anyway. In this case, it wouldn't be any different. If items inside a backpack DO count against the limits, then so should the crate. In other words, it is intended to be no more or less a penalty than a backpack when it comes to vendor items, with the added benefit of product visibility.
I have read a good deal about attempts to prevent hoarding, but I've never seen a case of hoarding. Is it a major problem on some of the servers? It would seem that it might have been more of an issue during the hologrind, when people were briefly passing through one profession on the way to another.
In any case, this is not intended to increase item limits, and the main reason it is on the Merchant forum instead of the Artisan forum is that I thought merchants might be quicker at spotting potential exploits, since the merchant profession would be the one most likely hurt by such exploits. This allows us to modify it however we need to.
Can you give me information on whether items inside backpacks count against vendor limits, so I can adjust the proposal accordingly? I'd test it myself, but, unlike other crafting professions,there is no vendor capability anywhere in thebio-engineer tree. I've never operated a vendor except as a customer.
DocSavag
Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:24 am
#8
Items in Backpacks DO count against the item limit for merchants.
Currently I don't think they count on the offers screen against the 25 item there but they've been back and forth on that one and I'm not sure where they are this week.
Currently I don't think they count on the offers screen against the 25 item there but they've been back and forth on that one and I'm not sure where they are this week.
Hylidex
Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:25 am
#9
DocSavag wrote:
Items in Backpacks DO count against the item limit for merchants.
Currently I don't think they count on the offers screen against the 25 item there but they've been back and forth on that one and I'm not sure where they are this week.
Okay, I edited the original to reflect what we believe to be the current situation with backpacks.
The only exception to this is with the sample of live creatures, which would stack inside the crates, while they don't normally. However, these creatures are low-cost, available to anyone,and have very little economic impact overall.
SystemJinx
Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:03 pm
#10
Maybe I'm missing something, but don't we already have this? It's called a factory crate and it's already stacked when it's removed from a factory. I can't see much point in being able to restack an item that was stacked in the first place...
What should be changed is an ability to open a backpack while it's for sale on a vendor.That waythere wouldn't be any surprises when it's purchased.
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