CUEmu - Thread Posts

Sotaudi

Thu May 13, 2004 3:49 pm

I read through the thread on whether or not dropping Business III or any merchant skill should allow you to keep dropped vendors. But now my head hurts and my eyes are bleeding. All the arguing about whether this is an exploit (whichI believe it is) is pointless. The issue should not be how you get a vendor. It is not that expensive to get one, especially if you have Novice Artisan already. Having the ability is a matter of choices, and it should stay that way. There reallyshould beno debating this. And I do not want this thread to deteriorate into another argument for allowing non-merchants to have vendors or some anti-Capitalist ranting about greed. Those are not the issues. So please debate those issues elsewhere. Besides, if the real problem were solved, that issue would be moot anyway.

The argument should not be about whether Non-merchants (and I include Busness III in this definition for simplicity's sake) can have vendors. There is a professional class, Merchant, who gets to place and manage vendors. That is their job. The problem is that it is too difficult to make use of their services, and that is what we need to discuss. Think about it.

I am a non-merchant. But I have finished goods, resources, or loot to sell on a regular basis. How can I do this?

There is the bazaar system. This allows me, for 20 credits a pop, to sell goods. And this fine for some things, but I can only use that if I have sales units which do not cost more than 6k. If I have a high value loot or a product that costs more than 6k, I am unable to use the bazaar system. Also, this only allows me to place something like 20 to 25 items (I forget the exact amount) up for sale at any one time. And that is galaxy-wide. This is good for some purposes, but it is not an overall solution.

I can do it through personal contacts, but that severely limits your market. Again, an option, but not an overall solution.

So I go to a merchant. Now, I run into the real problem. Optimally, I can sell him the merchandise at wholesale prices, but he has to 1) have the confidence that he can sell it, or 2) he has to have the cash to buy my product. If either of those conditions are not met, I cannot sell him the merchandise. This puts too much burden on the Merchant and makes it difficult to sell items that may be slow sellers.

The alternative to that is to give him the items on consignment. I could trade him the items or offer it to his vendor at 1 credit each. He could then offer the items for sale on his vendorsand pay me the sales less an agreed upon commission. The problem there is that there is no accounting system in the game. He has to manually keep track of which item that sold belonged to which player he got the items from. He has to be trustworthy because even if he puts them up on his vendor, you are completely out of control. If he decides to keep the money himself or pay youa fraction of what they are worth, there is no way to hold him accountable for this. After all, you gave him the merchandise. Likewise, if he decides to quit the game without notice, or his house burns down, or the person who owns the house takes it down without giving him a chance to clear the vendor, all your mechandise is gone and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

These are real problems. And these are what needs to be addressed. If it were simple and safe to work through a merchant, then people would have no need for a vendor of their own, and the merchant class would have much more meaning in the game.

So...what are some alternatives you can see which would resolve these problems? Here is one suggestion. Feel free to present and discuss others:

To offer an item to a merchant's vendor, the seller would go through a processs similar to what they do now (especially at the bazaar). They would select theitem, set a price, and enter a description if desired. However, unlike the bazaar interface, another field would be present setting a commision rate. The default rate could be set by the Merchant, and the seller could adjust it. The sale would then go through an approval process like you do when someone is brought intoa gulid. The item is offered (like a prosepective member is sponsored) then the merchant would call up the offer and approve it or reject it. If it is accepted, theproduct goes into the vendor and when the product is sold, the money is automaticallysplit appropriately based on the commission rate.

The advantage to this method is that the merchant never has to take possession of the product and the money for the product never goes through the merchant's account.Both parties get theiragreed upon portion of the sale. Also, like the bazaar, the seller could remove the product from sale at any time, with of course some appropriate fee for having used the vendor (not unlike the fact that you lose the listing cost on the bazaar if you do not sell the product).

The disadvantage is that there would still need to be some mechanism for protecting the owner's merchandise if the Merchant left the game or the house was destroyed or such. But even without these protections, you are already greatly simplifying the process.

Sotaudi Crestlighter
Master Rifleman / Master Combat Medic
"The Physician's Pain Reference"

Former Professions
Master Doctor | Master Swordsman | Master Brawler
Master Scout | Ranger

Sevardos

Thu May 13, 2004 9:17 pm

#2

I agree, a more constructive discussion is required.It is an exploit but it's also a reality and cannot be just snuffed out without any recourse.

My thoughts:

1. Allow Master Merchants to sell vendors... or more accurately, we act as a temp agency for our NPC vendors and sales/leasing agent for our terminal & droid merchants. A 'hired' vendor can be purchased from a Merchant by anyone, no matter the class. However, their would be some restrictions and particulars:

(a) These vendors cannot be advertised via the global map

(b) Instead of maintenance, you would need to purchase weekly/monthly "contracts" that must be added to the vendor - similar to adding power to a harvester. These "contracts" are crafted by a Master Merchant and can be purchased by them.

(c) Once initialized, cannnot be moved. If moved, you need to buy another one from a Master Merchant

(d) The player who bought the vendor does not have to rely on the Merchant for anything else other than purchasing it (keeps things simple)

(e) Restricted to only 3 merchants per player

2. Allow NPC vendors to be altered by an Image Designer. This provides more revenue opportunites for that class plus alleviates the issues of having unlimited number of variances as is now.

3. Existing vendors without the Merchant skill have to go. But, there would be a 37 day grace period to allow those players to purchase new vendors and move or sell through their stock. I chose 37 because thats the maximum you can have something on the vendor without losing it so players who don't act, can't say "Hey, I lost all this inventory!" ... because they would have lost it anyways.

4."Crafting" (for lack of better word) Vendors for Master Merchants. This part, I'm a little stumped (or just tired). There needs to be a process implemented that forces Master Merchants to somehow 'craft' a vendor. It can't be like how the current professions work (purchase materials + craft) but can't think of any ideas right now. Please feel free to add suggestions.

Something like this is what I would like to see - or variations of it. This accomplishes 2 things that would hopefully make both sides happy:

1. Makes the Master Merchant elite profession credible in that you have to keep it to take advantage of it

2. It allows ALL players, crafters or non-crafters, to have vendors to sell their wares or loot (which I think is the main desire)

Anyways, it's not a perfect idea but it's my 2 cents.

Sevardos

The ))SUN(( Centre

636 -3836 Corellia (just outside Coronet) - Bria

Buff Packs * All Meds * Harvesters * Factories * Designer Furniture * Tools

*** ALPHA TESTER: Combat Balance ***

GarenTore

Fri May 14, 2004 1:22 am

#3

Sevardos wrote:

I agree, a more constructive discussion is required.It is an exploit but it's also a reality and cannot be just snuffed out without any recourse.

My thoughts:

1. Allow Master Merchants to sell vendors... or more accurately, we act as a temp agency for our NPC vendors and sales/leasing agent for our terminal & droid merchants. A 'hired' vendor can be purchased from a Merchant by anyone, no matter the class. However, their would be some restrictions and particulars:

(a) These vendors cannot be advertised via the global map

(b) Instead of maintenance, you would need to purchase weekly/monthly "contracts" that must be added to the vendor - similar to adding power to a harvester. These "contracts" are crafted by a Master Merchant and can be purchased by them.

(c) Once initialized, cannnot be moved. If moved, you need to buy another one from a Master Merchant

(d) The player who bought the vendor does not have to rely on the Merchant for anything else other than purchasing it (keeps things simple)

(e) **Restricted to only 3 merchants** per player

** You mean vendors right?

**Change this to 1vendor per player maybe, why give someone who has ZERO Merchant skills at all, half the allotedvendor number Im allowed to have at Master Merchant level?

Also, if Im a Master Merchant, can I then purchase more vendors from another Master Merchant, giving me a total of 7? And if so, can I then make my own contracts to feed said vendors?

In regards to No. 3, with the 37 day grace period. I dont think 37 months is enough time for some of the complete whackjobs who play this game, but that being said they could easily change the loading screen to reflect a coming chnage to non Merchant characters vendors, like a countdown stating::

ATTENTION NON MERCHANT CLASSES. IF YOU OWN A VENDOR CURRENTLY HOLDING STOCK YOU NOW HAVE 7 (SEVEN) DAYS TO EMPTY YOUR VENDOR. AFTER 7 (SEVEN) DAYS YOUR VENDOR WILL BE DELETED, EMPTY OR NOT. DONT JUST SIT THERE FOOL, GO EMPTY IT. OH NO YOU DONT, DONT YOU DARE BUY A TICKET TO DATHOMIR AND HUNT NIGHTSISTERS, GO AND EMPTY YOUR VENDOR. NOW!! NOW !11ONE!111!1TWO11!!1!1

Message Edited by GarenTore on 05-14-2004 01:23 AM

Az' - Master Weaponsmith

Everything dies baby, thats a fact.
Maybe everything that dies someday comes back..

wyrwulf

Fri May 14, 2004 6:26 am

#4

I agree that the vendor situation needs to be revamped, but there needs to be other options to allow players to sell their merchandise. You have hit upon a great idea and I would like to add to the discussion.

Allow Merchants to create vendors to sell to other players. Make changes to the merchant skill tree so that the higher you go in the merchant profession the better or different types of sellable vendors you can make.

These sellable vendors can be bought and placed by anyone. As to the number of these vendors anyone can have.

A. At least one and only one unless maybe if we give Masters of crafting professions that do not require them to have Artisan Business III, 2 but no more, this is enough for most players.

How this could work is the merchant makes the vendors selling them for a price, so the merchant gets the money for the initial sale. To keep the vendor running the player who buys the vendor must then buy from the merchant a licensing agreement or contract, something like this. This agreement or contract made by the merchant can be variable meaning the merchant has the option to make it last for differing amounts of time.

i.e. 7 days, 14 days, 30 days and so on at a higher cost depending on the amount of time.

The vendor that is placed by a player can be modified slightly by the player who bought it, put clothes on it or have its looks altered by an Image designer but nothing else.

As to advertising on the planetary map, maybe give the merchants the ability to craft another advertising agreement like the above-mentioned licensing agreement or contract.

To put money back into the game, make it so the owner has to pay maintenance on the vendor like it is now but maybe at a lower rate.

So merchants make money on the initial sale, the sale of use contracts and possibly advertising contracts.

Something would have to be put in place to protect the buyer in the event that the merchant they bought the vendor from changes professions leaves the game for a long period of time or just quits. A time period after the use contract expires the vendor un-initializes and no one can buy anything off of it until a new contract is purchased but the owner can still remove their stock form the vendor and then after a set period of time, 30 days, if the vendor has not been re-initialized by the owner it is deleted.

Another thing to add to the merchant profession is have them create mannequins that Tailors can use to display their goods, or anyone for that matter but that is all they are is a shell.

Please feel free to slice this to pieces I’m just trying to provide suggestions to help everyone out.

Deex

LXB

Master Doctor

Intrepid

Deex
Master Doctor since Oct 2003 (retired 15 Nov 2005)

Kogi
Master Weaponsmith (Holding out hope) /Merchant

LXB League City, Dantooine

Sevardos

Fri May 14, 2004 6:28 am

#5

Sorry, yes - I meant 3 vendors per player.

The reason I chose 3 vendors isthat it provides more revenue opportunities for the Master Merchant professtion. Remember, players are 'buying' the merchants from you AND they are buying the contracts (power) from you to keep the vendors going.

As for the 37 days, I think adding a message somewhere (reminders) is a great idea. However, no one can complain about the 37 days - if they haven't checked their merchants in 37 days, they would have lost anything they had in their anyways. If they decided to ignore it, it's their problem. You can only babysit for so long.

How about some ideas from everyone on how we would "craft" these vendors?

Sevardos

The ))SUN(( Centre

636 -3836 Corellia (just outside Coronet) - Bria

Buff Packs * All Meds * Harvesters * Factories * Designer Furniture * Tools

*** ALPHA TESTER: Combat Balance ***

DocSavag

Fri May 14, 2004 6:44 am

#6

What exactly is my motivation for even doing this? Why as a merchant should I be concentrating on becoming a "Vendor crafter" instead of selling merchandise? You are also going to have to deal with the fact that we aren't going to get extra vendors for this so every vendor I 'Rent" out would count against my vendor limit.

I understand the motivation of a Non Merchant. But why would I be interested? Isn't this a lot like trying to turn a commando intoa flamethrower salesman?

Even if I were interested there is no way a person with absolutely no business skills gets 3 vendors that is just wrong. Even 1 is a stretch without having a merchant managing it.

I also wouldn't support this if the "rent" wasn't at least 1% or higher of the total sales.

----------------------------------
Chataka Windae
Rifleman/Combat Medic
CEO, Windae Enterprises
Mesric Sanctuary Founder

Balkstar

Fri May 14, 2004 9:56 am

#7

All of the posts here are excellent. There do need to be wholesale changes to the profession to be more viable.

I agree a little with what you say, Doc. Unfortunalty, it has become clear that we are the guardian of something that is prized within the crafting community. The vendor is a very powerful tool that has been highly sought after. And crafters have a disdain about working with the human element associated with that tool. I don't know why that is, but the world is what the world is.

I think we need to be the distributors of this tool if we ever want to have a chance to get this profession back on a solid footing. Lets take advantage of the greatest strength of the profession by being the creators of the economic system in the first place. By being able to distribute the vendors to crafters that really need it, we put ourselves in a position as being a highly sought after profession, and thus finally be economically viable.

Vendor leasing and consignment is the first step,

Balkstar Bartoc - 56th level Smuggler, Ex-Master Smuggler, Ex-Master Merchant, Privateer Ace Pilot,

Coosin Larstar - 90th Level Jedi, Ex-Master Fencer, Ex-TKM

Flurry

aazatgrabya

Sun May 16, 2004 8:02 pm

#8

Sotaudi, some great ideas there. However, I have to agree with DocSavag, those not dedicating their skills towards business should not have direct access to Vendors - it would nullify the reason for most players to climb the Merchant tree. I believe the real issue at hand is direct business associations. There does need to be a suitable interface for suppliers to offer merchants their stock for sale with a real sense of accountability. One simple method that could be implemented without too much stress on the Devs is simply to add more information to the stock on the vendors and the corresponding e-mail conformations of sale.

The vendor interface could have an additional tab allowing customers to add stock for sale. This window shows the percentage cost alloted by theMerchant owner on all sales. Ideally individual costs per customer - but making this simple increases our chance of the Devs responding. So these then get stored for a limited time in a similar space as the stockroom awaiting the vendor owner to accept or reject all offers. On a rejection the seller receives an e-mail instructing him/her to retrieve the item before it gets destroyed (7 days perhaps?). On accepting the items however, they are put straight on the vendor sales window with everything else. The only difference is the item owner is still identified as the original owner (not the Merchant). The reasoning behind this is that the conformation mails can simply add the owners name for the merchant to pass on the sales profits. Again, ideally this would be transfered automatically, but coding simplicity is the key.

Another issue is regular Merchant suppliers. I.e. other Merchants such as Bio Engineers selling you regular components. Herea useful addition would be to have a direct link between vendor interface windows. Being able to buy items off a conected vendor, and even automatically transfer bought goods to and from vendors if at all possible. A discount percentage could be added to the code to add an incentive for business relationships.

These additions would not only add incentive to keep the Merchant skills, but also drop the number of players becoming merchants - allowing them to play as they want to play.

I also have a couple of points I need to post regarding Merchants at present. They have been mentioned elsewhere but I cannot resist any opportunity to repeat myself in the vain hope they will be noticed by the Devs.

Merchant renaming: This is becomming essential. Those of us working hard to have well stocked merchants but alter our crafting professions either need to open another vendor (possibly not an option either because we have all possible vendiors or because we cannot devote the skill points) or empty the current vendor and start again - re-selling all the original items again. A renaming tool allows us to have a smoother and faster game without the no-fun gaming that is a regular feature of the Merchant.

This brings me onto the stockroom: Man I hate this system! Not because it exists, it is an esential part of the business management. However, reselling everything off a very well stocked vendor is SO time consuming it removes the incentive to log into the game on some occasions! Hours can be spent re-pricing every item. I am a tailor and every item is individually priced. This causes literally hours everyday reselling items. I simply ask for the vendor to remember the original sale price so we can re-sell items easily.

LonelyGhost

Mon May 17, 2004 1:28 pm

#9

IMHO, the current Player Vendor system must DIE!

annihilate, asphyxiate, assassinate, blow away, bump off, butcher, chill, cream, croak, crucify, dispatch, do in, drown, dump, electrocute, eradicate, erase, execute, exterminate, extirpate, finish off, garrote, get, guillotine, hang, hit, ice, immolate, knock off, liquidate, lynch, massacre, murder, neutralize, obliterate, off, poison, polish off, put away, rub out, sacrifice, slaughter, slay, smother, snuff, strangle, suffocate, take, waste, winterkill, wipe out, zap

The interface we are familiar with is just fine and dandy or the Bazaar. Well, it still needs fixes (like empty catagories, dumb premium colums, vague "location" identifiers, etc...). But the Player Vendor system should be introduced as a completely new system. Merchant (and only merchants) should be able to place "vendors" that consist of only a single cataegory. Merchants can place up to a couple dozen of these "vendors". The vendors selections should be added to significantly. The interface would allow for commissions, FAQ's, Bank delivery, multiple custom messages, a working planetary advetising that showed an estimate of the number of items on the vendor and a "rating" (equaling the number of creds spent on it vs the number of items sold), I also would like to be able to have a "Shop" to sell out of. I'd like to be able to drop and arrange items in this structure like you see in a regular store. People would access the "vendor" to buy something they see in the shop on display. We should also be able to re-name the top-level item names. Not the crafter name, but the actual name. This way I can sell my Duracell battery as a Target brand name, but people will still see it was make by Duracell.

But I'm afraid they are just gonna fix the non-Merchant vendor thing and leave everything else alone.

Crys Akkori - Merchant Engineer
Veteren of SIN, IO, and XC - A Founder of Jaxian Bay
Elder DE, Architect, Artisan, Chef, Merchant

Vendor on Naboo at -7547 4635 (Fly in to Theed)

Crafters do have decay on resources. As we use it it GOES AWAY. And when it's gone, we have to get more. - Elekae

Merchant Archive

Thread: Alternatives to Vendors for Non-Merchants