Merchant Archive
Thread: Solving the database problem without nerfing Merchants to oblivion
I have two suggestions to kick it off.
#1: Eliminate serial numbers on all non-experimented items. If there's no difference between any two generators in terms of quality, why should they be tracked from seperate runs? Possibly a quick work-around: force all non-experimented sub-components to have the same serial number across all instances of that item. All power cores, all generators, etc. become instances of a single object. Since I usually find anywhere from 5-20 of a given serial number, that I forgot about left in a bag somewhere (and I think I'm pretty typical), the ability to stick them into a factory run based on a different schematic also means that crafters won't have so many odds and ends setting around. Essentially those schematics can treat them as needing "similar" items instead of "identical." This will further shrink the DB, because now there's fewer leftover components.
#2: Eliminate resource hording, which is what's really killing the DB. (This will only work if the DB has a record of when a particular spawn occured, but I suspect it does.) Every time a new resource spawns on the server, it checks the list of all prior spawns of that particular sub-category (for instance "Talusian Wild Rice" or "Phrik Aluminum"). All instances (within that category) of any specific named resource which last spawned over six months ago is ELIMINATED, and removed from the database. Presto! No more hording, AND new crafters are no longer at such a disadvantage vs. existing crafters with huge stocks of the best resources. Yes it's going to suck to be a weaponmaster and have your fantastic skeevon gas from 7 months ago disappear when a crappy spawn appears, but hey, you should have used it up and stockpiled the weapons. What, you were waiting something else to spawn in high quality so you could make uberweapon #235? Gee, too bad. Didn't the Devs mention they didn't like that? (Evil Grin)
Really, I see these two suggestions as working on multiple levels to make the game better, without screwing over every merchant and crafter in the game. I do not understand why they have not been brought up.
Crimsonsplat wrote:
#2: Eliminate resource hording, which is what's really killing the DB. (This will only work if the DB has a record of when a particular spawn occured, but I suspect it does.) Every time a new resource spawns on the server, it checks the list of all prior spawns of that particular sub-category (for instance "Talusian Wild Rice" or "Phrik Aluminum"). All instances (within that category) of any specific named resource which last spawned over six months ago is ELIMINATED, and removed from the database. Presto! No more hording, AND new crafters are no longer at such a disadvantage vs. existing crafters with huge stocks of the best resources. Yes it's going to suck to be a weaponmaster and have your fantastic skeevon gas from 7 months ago disappear when a crappy spawn appears, but hey, you should have used it up and stockpiled the weapons. What, you were waiting something else to spawn in high quality so you could make uberweapon #235? Gee, too bad. Didn't the Devs mention they didn't like that? (Evil Grin)
Really, I see these two suggestions as working on multiple levels to make the game better, without screwing over every merchant and crafter in the game. I do not understand why they have not been brought up.
Why just delete EVERY item after 6 months?
/endsarcasm
The problem with the database is not the unique resource system. Or that there is acrafting system which creates unique items. All these problems are solved by limiting the storage for each character to 75-100 items per lot, +100 items in the bank, +110 items on your person +50 for droids.
The real problem with the database is whenplayers are using vendors as unlimited storage devices, or using vendors without the appropriatecost in skill points.
Message Edited by rexan on 08-11-2004 06:22 PM
/endsarcasm
All those stupid cdef pistols and +1 SEA's, especially. Actually, I have a better idea. How about all that junk never drops in the first place?
quote: "The problem with the database is not the unique resource system. Or that there is a crafting system which creates unique items. All these problems are solved by limiting the storage for each character to 75-100 items per lot, +100 items in the bank, +110 items on your person +50 for droids.
The real problem with the database is when players are using vendors as unlimited storage devices, or using vendors without the appropriate cost in skill points."
-----------------
First, please quote/cite your source for this. Second, isn't part of the nerf doing away with the no-skill vendor exploit?
And I disagree strongly with your first two contentions. Every week, 10-12 new resources are generated and added to the system. These resources effectively NEVER leave the game, because someone's always going to have a few bits laying around, or a few hundred k if it's really good. And if you really think tracking thousands and thousands of unique serial numbers isn't an additional load on a database, you know jack all about databases.
Let me break it down for you:
Common serial number: One entry with the item's stats. Every person with one (stack) in inventory has a record with pointer to that entry, and a quantity. Make the items restackable and the crates refillable, and you've got less inventory entries too. Increase stack sizes and you reduce entries (although you offset this negatively somewhat by requiring more bytes to hold the number).
Unique serial numbers: One entry with stats for every handcrafted item in the game. One entry for every factory run in the game. Each entry then points to the common stat. Then every player has one entry for each unique serial number in his inventory, with a pointer to the stats and a quantity.
Multiply this difference by 2,000 + players per server, and tell me it's not a load. Yes the storage vendors are contributing heavily to the problem, but forcing combat players to retake Merchant skills will solve that as they destroy the hordes of junk. (Although I think they should be able to list them on the bazaar or have a single, 10-item vendor on the data terminal in their homes.)
And as for the next person's complaint about fairness and six month hiatus, HELLO! The character isn't likely to be there after six months, if they didn't pay. And if they do, their credits didn't go anywhere, so they can just put everything up for sale (IOW, convert assets to cash), let the vendors autodelete 2 weeks later, and then repurcahse the new resources if/when they rejoin the game. You're promoting a an action that will screw over many people because you object to one that may screw over a few? It's "unfair?" What do you call wrecking the economy of the game and disrupting the businesses that thousands of crafters have built? "Inconvenient," perhaps?
Crimsonsplat wrote:
And as for the next person's complaint about fairness and six month hiatus, HELLO! The character isn't likely to be there after six months, if they didn't pay.
So players don't have a life outside of this game if they so choose? They don't deserve the choice of taking a break? Some people pay for 6 months to a year in advance when they subscribe/renew. These people deserve to have their stuff deleted just because they needed/wanted a break?
And if they do, their credits didn't go anywhere, so they can just put everything up for sale (IOW, convert assets to cash), let the vendors autodelete 2 weeks later, and then repurcahse the new resources if/when they rejoin the game.
How are they going to purchase resources that will become more coveted than ever if resources simply delete after a certain period of time. You as a crafter should know that this will only result in the price hike of resources.
You're promoting a an action that will screw over many people because you object to one that may screw over a few? It's "unfair?"
Its OK to screw over people if they are in the minority? Hmmmm....think about that one for a minute.
What do you call wrecking the economy of the game and disrupting the businesses that thousands of crafters have built? "Inconvenient," perhaps?
There is no doubt that crafters will get the shaft if the vendor limits are set too low. I don't dispute that. However, the important issue is exactly how low that limit should be. There needs to be a happy medium to discourage storage vendors yet allow crafters to still be able to sell their own goods. Simply not having any limits and just deleting crap is not the answer.
We all know about stuff that disappears all the time; even to players that log in everyday. And you are proposing that the Devs introduce an autodelete algorithm into the picture? Do you honestly think that it will work properly? How much of your stuff are you willing to have deleted by accident before they get the bugs out of that system?
MaDuece wrote:
Crimsonsplat wrote:
And as for the next person's complaint about fairness and six month hiatus, HELLO! The character isn't likely to be there after six months, if they didn't pay.
So players don't have a life outside of this game if they so choose? They don't deserve the choice of taking a break? Some people pay for 6 months to a year in advance when they subscribe/renew. These people deserve to have their stuff deleted just because they needed/wanted a break?
And if they do, their credits didn't go anywhere, so they can just put everything up for sale (IOW, convert assets to cash), let the vendors autodelete 2 weeks later, and then repurcahse the new resources if/when they rejoin the game.
How are they going to purchase resources that will become more coveted than ever if resources simply delete after a certain period of time. You as a crafter should know that this will only result in the price hike of resources.
You're promoting a an action that will screw over many people because you object to one that may screw over a few? It's "unfair?"
Its OK to screw over people if they are in the minority? Hmmmm....think about that one for a minute.
What do you call wrecking the economy of the game and disrupting the businesses that thousands of crafters have built? "Inconvenient," perhaps?
There is no doubt that crafters will get the shaft if the vendor limits are set too low. I don't dispute that. However, the important issue is exactly how low that limit should be. There needs to be a happy medium to discourage storage vendors yet allow crafters to still be able to sell their own goods. Simply not having any limits and just deleting crap is not the answer.
We all know about stuff that disappears all the time; even to players that log in everyday. And you are proposing that the Devs introduce an autodelete algorithm into the picture? Do you honestly think that it will work properly? How much of your stuff are you willing to have deleted by accident before they get the bugs out of that system?
Sounds good to me why should I be penalized and actually PAY real money to SOE to store players items that havnt been on or PAYED anythingin 6mo. A break?? Try taking a 6mo break from your job see if your stuff will still be their when you decide to return (put into boxes if your luck and if your allowed to return if your luckier). 6mo. limit is extremely fair on this IMO. The only problem Id have is if these players were in the milatary but most have friends that would look after thier accts. (and if not Id help them re-establish themselves as most would (unless thier friends were from france :smileyvery-happy
then its thier own tuf luck).
Aeja wrote:
Increasing the stack sizes just leads to more hoarding of resources, instead of having for example one small house of 150 x 100k; you now have 150 x 1000k which is way too much resources to have for anyone. Resource brokers would be happy, yes, but starting newbie crafters wouldn't have a chance to compete against aestablished names.
Increasing the sizes of resource containers most certain will not increase resource hoarding. Resources are set at percentage limits in certain locations. The harvesters you place on them can only extract so much at one time. Its not like you can make them pump any faster. You can only place as many harvesters as you can for only as long as that resource lasts. People that have been "hoarding" resources are doing for more than simple economics of having enormous stashes later. Here's a little news flash for you:
If it takes more than 8k to make one swoop; how much do you think it will take to make one spacecraft when JTL comes out? All those "enormous" resource stacks don't look so big anymore then do they?
Besides, the habit of people harvesting tons of any ole' kind of crap will stop when hologrinding stops. Don't forget; it wasn't always this way. Not until "hoards" of people started doing everything a little cube told them to.
Sounds good to me why should I be penalized and actually PAY real money to SOE to store players items that havnt been on or PAYED anythingin 6mo. A break??
Yes a break. You know, where you actually go ouside and get some sunlight. Spend time exposing yourself to a real world. There is one out there you know. Dig yourself out from underneath mommy's basement and have a look.
Try taking a 6mo break from your job see if your stuff will still be their when you decide to return (put into boxes if your luck and if your allowed to return if your luckier).
Don't even start to compare any of this to a real life job or anything else real life. It only shows you have no clue about a real life OR a real job to begin with. People who pay their bills should have the right to have their accounts and its' entire contents secure when they return.
6mo. limit is extremely fair on this IMO. The only problem Id have is if these players were in the milatary but most have friends that would look after thier accts. (and if not Id help them re-establish themselves as most would (unless thier friends were from france :smileyvery-happy
What about students that study abroad? Or people with new kids in the family? Or those that just simply WANT to step back away from it all for awhile. As long as they pay up and everything else is in order then there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Just because you can't envision yourself away from this game for any length of time doesn't mean that someone doesn't have a right to do so without getting screwed over.
As mentioned B4 I dont want to pay for cancelled accts to be stored, If you do thats fine perhaps you can get with SOE and offer up your credit card.
MaDuece wrote:
Aeja wrote:
Increasing the stack sizes just leads to more hoarding of resources, instead of having for example one small house of 150 x 100k; you now have 150 x 1000k which is way too much resources to have for anyone. Resource brokers would be happy, yes, but starting newbie crafters wouldn't have a chance to compete against aestablished names.
Increasing the sizes of resource containers most certain will not increase resource hoarding. Resources are set at percentage limits in certain locations. The harvesters you place on them can only extract so much at one time. Its not like you can make them pump any faster. You can only place as many harvesters as you can for only as long as that resource lasts. People that have been "hoarding" resources are doing for more than simple economics of having enormous stashes later. Here's a little news flash for you:
If it takes more than 8k to make one swoop; how much do you think it will take to make one spacecraft when JTL comes out? All those "enormous" resource stacks don't look so big anymore then do they?
Besides, the habit of people harvesting tons of any ole' kind of crap will stop when hologrinding stops. Don't forget; it wasn't always this way. Not until "hoards" of people started doing everything a little cube told them to.
Must have made a mistate when I coppied and pated things together. I dont want any restrictions on how many resources a person can have
Sounds good to me why should I be penalized and actually PAY real money to SOE to store players items that havnt been on or PAYED anythingin 6mo. A break??
Yes a break. You know, where you actually go ouside and get some sunlight. Spend time exposing yourself to a real world. There is one out there you know. Dig yourself out from underneath mommy's basement and have a look.
Well I go out everyday several times a day get plenty of sunshine. But dont need 6mo of sunlike all that skin cancer everyone is so worried about though.
Try taking a 6mo break from your job see if your stuff will still be their when you decide to return (put into boxes if your luck and if your allowed to return if your luckier).
Don't even start to compare any of this to a real life job or anything else real life. It only shows you have no clue about a real life OR a real job to begin with. People who pay their bills should have the right to have their accounts and its' entire contents secure when they return.
Well if you keep you SOE bill payed up you wont lose your stuff or your characters. Its only those accts that have been cancelled or deactivated. SOE will never cancell a paying custumers accts LOL.
6mo. limit is extremely fair on this IMO. The only problem Id have is if these players were in the milatary but most have friends that would look after thier accts. (and if not Id help them re-establish themselves as most would (unless thier friends were from france :smileyvery-happy
What about students that study abroad? Or people with new kids in the family? Or those that just simply WANT to step back away from it all for awhile. As long as they pay up and everything else is in order then there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Read Previous.
Just because you can't envision yourself away from this game for any length of time doesn't mean that someone doesn't have a right to do so without getting screwed over.
Again read previous
GraySeven wrote:
Does there need to be a Vendor Item limit? As I understood it, items in a vendor took up less DB space than they did if they were on the floor of a house. TH would have to re-confirm this though, as I can't remember who said it, or when. I believe it came up during the first discussion of VIL's.
I'm a 3 craft Master, with the remaining points in Merchant (and an ex-Master Merchant). With the required sub-components and named resources required for my two elite crafting professions, space is always at a premium. I will not be doing any crafting until after the nerf and will spend the time on my combat alternate instead, hoping that SOE sees the light at some point in the future and stops nerfing the crafting professions because of a crafting system they created requiring so much DB storage.
Well your partly correct it doesnt take less database space having the items on a vendor, But its Better to have the items on a vendor than in a house because it doesnt load into your computers memory everytime someone enters into a structure and is only called when someone uses the vendor.
As for the storage issue your absolutley correct the storage issue has been a "know issue" since week 4. This should be fixed B4 they limit the items on a vendor. But since last word items placed in packs are still going to be counted as 1 item.