Merchant Archive
Thread: For the propoents of limit Answer me this please, How does a vendor limit make the game more fun
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VarnaxDespin
Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:40 pm
#1
joined42904 wrote:
Varnax,
It's easier for me to have a discussion with you if you don't answer within a quotation of what I have written. But I will try anyway.
There is no quota for what any crafter can sell. There is no quota per unit time on what any crafter can sell with the new features. You could camp your vendor and restock at the same rate that things are purchased. There is nothing preventing you from selling to resellers. There isn't any cap at all even on the number of factories you can have admin on (which I feel there should be).
You are right, a player could theoretically sit by their vendor all day restocking as items are taken off, but that is unrealistic to expect or assume as I and I think most people play this game for enjoyment...we do dont we? 
.
A player can check their vendor stauts and re-stock as many times as they desire.
A player could also log on to re-stock at various times, or stop what they might be doing,(crafting, RP, hunting, etc) to come back to their vendor to re-stock.
So a item limit or "quota" is finite and specific to the time and place, not finite in terms of potential, much like any quota. For instance, imagine a country with a law that stated, every business in the country 'X" may have no more then"Y" (a specific finite number..like 1.. 8...20, or in our case 660 items per vendor) number ofpeople employeed within the business at any point in time. This would be a quota, a specific number must be maintained by rule of law, not by merit, how is this any different then the Dev's stating we can at no point in time have more then "Y" number of items on our vendors?
Well who benifits most from this? The casual crafter who only logs on a few times a week for an hour or two at a time, or the Power-gamer who spends huge amounts of time?
I would assume the powergamer, because they will more likelyto be online and able tore-stock when their vendors get low. The casual player might log on only to find their vendor has been empty for 2 days and thus has disappeared from the map...or out of stock of a good selling item and decided its in their best interest to only stockteh best selling items in future...limiting selection.
Now I have been both a powergamer and a casual player throughout the past year... I have played everyday for certain stetches of time.. and sometimes gone weeks without logging in.. just depends how my mood and what time I have available for this game after my RL work/concerns are dealt with.
you said,
"The person who is forced (because you are out of stock) to buy a gun with 4 lower max damage or a suit of armor that 1-2% lower in base isn't really harmed in any significant way by the change."
This I think clearly makes you point....you want players to be "FORCED" to buy from crafters they would not normally buy from.
Well thats a problem becasue you can't force players to buy anything from anyone, short of getting rid of player trades all together. You can make it incovient for players, you can make it hard on players, but if you make it to hard and inconvient, they wont play.
joined42904
Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:15 pm
#2
Vernax,
I do not want to force anyone to buy something from someone else. That was a poor choice of words. I would settle for it being very inconvenient. If you don't have a gun and your only combat skill is MRM, it's more than a little inconvenient to wait 2 days for your supplier to restock.
I disagree that the powergamer will benefit most from the changes. It will be the casual crafter. Because the casual crafter isn't going unstocked a lot now. The casual crafter may not have over 660 total items on vendors now.
If the powergamer benefits, it will be because he or she is having no fun having to constantly restock vendors. And not everyone would be willing to continually do that. It would get old. Thus the powergamer oligopolist is faced with the choice to give up market share or alternatively have little or no fun in the game.
Do you enjoy stocking vendors? I don't particularly enjoy putting suits of armor in bags. Maybe you do.
cinnamon_tsunami
Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:18 pm
#3
does this seem like a crazy strategy to anyone else? is the goal here to make the game unpleasant for whole groups of players? if that is true, then swg is doomed. cause as much as i like sw, i don't want to be here if the goal is to make it un-fun for me, or anyone else, for that matter.
joined42904 wrote:
Vernax,
I do not want to force anyone to buy something from someone else. That was a poor choice of words. I would settle for it being very inconvenient. If you don't have a gun and your only combat skill is MRM, it's more than a little inconvenient to wait 2 days for your supplier to restock.
I disagree that the powergamer will benefit most from the changes. It will be the casual crafter. Because the casual crafter isn't going unstocked a lot now. The casual crafter may not have over 660 total items on vendors now.
If the powergamer benefits, it will be because he or she is having no fun having to constantly restock vendors. And not everyone would be willing to continually do that. It would get old. Thus the powergamer oligopolist is faced with the choice to give up market share or alternatively have little or no fun in the game.
Do you enjoy stocking vendors? I don't particularly enjoy putting suits of armor in bags. Maybe you do.
VarnaxDespin
Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
#4
At this point I guess we will just agree to disagree. We seem to be going in circles.
joined42904 wrote:
Vernax,
I do not want to force anyone to buy something from someone else. That was a poor choice of words. I would settle for it being very inconvenient. If you don't have a gun and your only combat skill is MRM, it's more than a little inconvenient to wait 2 days for your supplier to restock.
I disagree that the powergamer will benefit most from the changes. It will be the casual crafter. Because the casual crafter isn't going unstocked a lot now. The casual crafter may not have over 660 total items on vendors now.
If the powergamer benefits, it will be because he or she is having no fun having to constantly restock vendors. And not everyone would be willing to continually do that. It would get old. Thus the powergamer oligopolist is faced with the choice to give up market share or alternatively have little or no fun in the game.
Do you enjoy stocking vendors? I don't particularly enjoy putting suits of armor in bags. Maybe you do.
I dont think either of us is going to sway the other. Thanks though for a lively debate 
Message Edited by VarnaxDespin on 08-12-2004 03:25 PM
EdOWar
Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:27 pm
#5
SWG is supposed to be a free market economy. In free market economies, some people are simply going to do better than others, either because they have better business savy, a better location, are more committed, they advertise better or run a more efficient operation. This means that casual crafters are going to be at a disadvantage compared to more dedicated/resourceful crafters, just like a casual combat player isn't going to get as much loot as a powergamer. That's just the nature of the beast, and vendor caps are notgoing to change that. Powergamers will find a way around the vendor caps, just as powergamers always find ways around limitations; casual crafters still will have all the other problems they had before (poor location, little/no advertising, subpar resources, lack of commitment, laziness, whatever). All vendor caps do is create one huge hassle for everyone, powercrafter, casual crafter and consumer alike.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Shade70
Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:44 pm
#6
joined42904 wrote:
Halaster,
Resources are part of it.
But I think they are not the entire story. Habits die hard. A player hears about the more established crafters by word of mouth. They start buying there. They continue buying there.
A new crafter moves in up the street. Same product. Same price. Do the folks buy from the new crafter? Well...I think they continue going to the established crafter. Because they know he will be "in stock" as he has never gone out of stock for xxx months.
Do you see how resources aren't the whole story?
I think that even with identical products, the new crafter would benefit immensely by artificial, SOE-emposed caps on the established crafter's vendor stock. Then folks would go down the street and see the same thing there and have two equally good places to buy items.
If a new crafter (ieunproven, unadvertised and ljust starting out) moves in'just up the street' from an established, high level, well known crafter and goes into direct competion with them selling the same stuff for the same price -THEY DESERVE TO FAIL. A Mom & Pop grocery store doesnt set up a shop near a Walmart and try and sell some of the same stuff for the same price in real life.....why?? Cause it will fail horribly.That how it works in RL and in SWG as well.
If a new crafter wants to set up a shop he does one of3 things.
1) Finds a location with no direct competion nearby, but with fair amount of traffic. That way they can slowly expand, makes some profit, gets a decent customer base and makes enough to expand to higher traffic areas.
2) If the new crafter still wants to moves in up the street from the established crafter - they undercut the established crafters prices while offering the same product, whileadvertising and trying to poach some of the established crafters business , once hes built up a reputation & a customer base he canTHEN sell his wares at the same priceas the other crafters business
3) Find a Mall/Player city/Guild that requires his craft and set up shop with them.
I took option 1 & a bit of 3. Started out small with a vendor for Vehicles and Personal Harvesters (at the time was MA working on DE). I then moved to a player city who required a DE there. Set up a DE Vendor. Took a lot of time, build up a customer base, kept my vendors stocked and my customer informed, while investing my prfits into Factories & Harvesters. 5 months later Id like to think of myself as one of the bigger MDEs on my server, I dont make as much as an established AS or WS (no droid decay you see), but I make enough.
I managed this by hard work, keeping vendor stocked and advertising, plus some business sense.Not at any time did other'established crafters' bother me or cut into my trade too much.This item limit - if I was still building up my business would of.
The item limits would not create this 'newb crafter uptopia' that you dream of Joined.
This item limit will hinder new crafters in various ways.
1) Fire sale stock. Already if you check the Trade Forums, established crafters are giving up & selling ALL there stock at really low prices (some times 50% below what they usually sell them). This is going to cause a glut on the market for at least the next month orso of EVERYTHING. Armor, Weapons, Harvesters, Droids, Powerups etc. Once the patch hits, another glut of items will appear, from crafters trying to free up inventory/storage space. Prices are gonna drop alot for a while, meaning small time crafters are either not going to get sales, or will have to drop prices, possibly below the cost of making them.
2) Malls & large shops, where before, newb crafters could set upa vendor and get 'a foot in the door',will start disappearing, as alot of the established crafters (who, you seem to forget) are the ones that run these establishments will start giving up asrestockingconstantly is too much likework & not fun- especially after the established crafter worked so hard getting where they were (my DE vendor was set up in a shop of an established architect - he is now giving up architect to go combat due to this nerf).
3) Good luck for new crafters trying to find low quality grinding resources in small blocks, to either start on the small products or grind thier profession. Most will resource vendor will only stock 100k blocks of high quality 5 cpu rescources after this nerf. Noone is gonna want to stock low profit stuff with these absurd limits. Variety in vendors will seize. Profit will be the only factor. Also good luck finding stuff like low level,cheap armor, low level weapons, small droids, BH Droids, Toolkits, furniture, droid batteries, Personal Harvestersetc. Not many people are going to stock these as the profit margin is too low those that do will probably inflate the price. So either prices will go up alot, oralot of the items that are required by newbieswill become more scarce.
4) After the glut of items on the market have finished, prices will start going up ALOT. I can see the things the new crafter requires to expand - Power, Resources, Harvesters, Factories will increase by large amounts. For the Established Crafter who hasnt quit,he already has his infastructure, so it wont affect him too much. The people WHO will be affected are the small guys trying to expand to fill in the gaps.
5) I can see Trade cartels starting to form, as established crafters start binding together with master merchants and other crafters, just so they can have enough vendors to keep items stocked.(Ive already been approached by another DE kicking the idea about of us forming a partnership as he has another Alt with Master Merchant). As these Cartels will be one of the few places with good variety and low prices (as they can keep stuff in stock), things are gonna be WORSE for new crafters trying to get into the market, not better.
Im sorry Joined - but this Uptopia you envision for the newer crafter AINT gonna happen
Aeja
Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:09 am
#8
joined42904 wrote:
Vernax,
I disagree that the powergamer will benefit most from the changes. It will be the casual crafter. Because the casual crafter isn't going unstocked a lot now. The casual crafter may not have over 660 total items on vendors now.
If the powergamer benefits, it will be because he or she is having no fun having to constantly restock vendors. And not everyone would be willing to continually do that. It would get old. Thus the powergamer oligopolist is faced with the choice to give up market share or alternatively have little or no fun in the game.
Do you enjoy stocking vendors? I don't particularly enjoy putting suits of armor in bags. Maybe you do.
Well This logic totally escapes me. As a power gamer that spends 8 to 10 hrs probly more on the game its nothing to take a hr to restock. Your right certain profesions would find it difacult to place over 600 items (assuming they have MASTER MERCHANT or 0004 merchant), but many crafters only have 1 or 2 boxes in merchant that would limit them to 300-400 items. Most POWER merchants wouldnt have a problem with it an xtra hr isnt much but for a casual gamer who plays 2 maybe 3 hrs a day is taking half thier "FUN" time away compared to 1/10th of mine.
But you are right WE all are losing "FUN" time but you need to look at the ratios between the casual gamer and the power gamer.
RocketM
Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:48 am
#9
In the end the change wont significantly alter the balance between casual and power crafters. The power crafters will just restock their vendors more often and continue to get a lot more sales than the casual guys who have less selection, lower quality, and less reliable stock levels. The casual guys never really had to restock that much because they don't sell that much so I dont see it having a huge effect on that.
What the changeswill do is free up some database space for the coming JTL expansion. I think that's also the purpose behind the mid-Oct character purge. I don't see how that can be a bad thing in the long run. Its better for them to do it now than to release JTL with inadequate database space and have our houses start disappearing or have database lag ruin the experience. I'd have to say its more fun to play a game with a stable database than one where your posessions start disappearing or one that suffers from too much lag. 3+ seconds after you click on your bike till you get the option to mount the bike anyone? It happenssometimes on Dantooine on Intrepid server right now.
Message Edited by RocketM on 08-13-2004 10:52 AM
Indene
Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:02 am
#10
LadyGrey wrote:This game is supposed to be fun?????Welcome to 1984. Tedium is actually immersion, and work-arounds are actually game-play.How many fingers am I holding up?
I can't tell. These toothpicks holding my eyes open are blurring my vision
-Indene-
Indene
Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:21 am
#11
joined42904 wrote:
.....Those crafters who are obscure but almost as good as the present overstocked oligopolists will see a dramatic increase in sales. They will feel like valued members of the community. They will be encouraged to continue crafting. Just think about it. Good all around.
Why were they obscure? Why would that change? Oh if they are the only ones left they will eventually be found and word of mouth advertizing (or a merchant importer) will create a dramatic increase in their sales. But if they are selling well now what is their motovation to make better stuff? If they had the urge to make better stuff they would have done so already. Why is it that the players who did go out of their way to make good stuff and get known are demonized (the way the word oligopolist is used implys that it should be an insult.) Why do you believe that a newer player has no chance against the current elders that have spent countless hours of their game time to create their businesses? Why should the current elders be blamed for the newer players hard road? They walked a hard road to get were they were. Is their work not worth as much as the newer player? Why is feeling even in a business discussion?
Now about economics. The (very) successful players got there because of simple market forces in this game. The new player can use the same forces. When I came in I looked around and became a miner and CH. I lisened to what crafters where looking for. I made deals and went and harvested the resources. I found nitches not being filled (ore for houses way too expensive at 6cpu) and filled them. There are big Oligopolist organizations in our galaxy. They make millions of credits per week. They may even share that with their "employees". Me I run a small operation. I had independant cotractors help me harvest. Helped several in my city become better off. I have enough credits to buy anything I want. All this and big oligopolists in my world (in resource businesss). The only thing stopping a player from succeding is their own will.
-Indene-
BongoINC
Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:02 am
#12
LadyGrey wrote:
How many fingers am I holding up?
FIVE!
I LOVE BIG BROTHER!
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