Merchant Archive
Thread: Pleading on behalf non-Merchants
Man and I thought I was a hard a$$. Good for you, Doc. I knew there was a reason I support you.
DocSavag wrote:
No. That implies that Tailors or ANY other profession has the right to hold our skills hostage until they get what they want. I am all for the idea of dress up mannequins but it shouldn't be a pre-requisite for our skill points being protected.
Tailors have a correspondant..a very able one in NJ62 who will be very vocal about getting their wishes heard and I'll speak up for those ideas myself, but she doesn't need or want our skills to be ours only if it is convienient for someone else.
p4Samwise wrote:
2) Tailors have no way to display clothes without vendors.
Numen wrote:
The bonus of merchant will be to be able to have vendors. All this does to crafters is make their professions cost more points. Instead of 100ish for a crafting profession it will be pushed to 130-150ish. Theres nothing wrong with that if the devs want the game to be that way. To me that leaves very little room for other professions. You can't be a Crafter and a Master Combat professon at that same time then. I realize you can't currently either if you have the merchant skills, and thats where I think the problem is.
I think you fail to understand how it is supposed to work...
Andy Armoursmith Makes 100 suits of ubese armour
Wendy Weaponsmith makes 100 t21 Rifles
Mark Merchant buys the armour from Andy and the weapons from Wendy then sells them on their merchant vendors at a higher price than they paid for them.
Its the same as in RL where merchants (or retail corporations) buy large amounts of goods from manufaturers and sell them in their stores. Most manufacturers don't sell retail they sell wholesale to "merchants" who then sell retail.
The problem is that because it is so easy to set up and keep your own vendors with the current system there is no reason for a crafter to sell wholesale to a merchant.
If it worked correctly things would be much better for shoppers, instead of everyone and theirpethaving a store selling a few items there would be several large stores run by professional merchants selling a wide range of goods made by different crafters. And crafters could get their stock on sale accross the galaxy by selling it to multiple merchants on different planets. There is so much potential for merchant as a true retail profession is crafters would start to think like manufacturers and not expect to do the whole thing themselves.
lisasdarren wrote:
Numen wrote:
The bonus of merchant will be to be able to have vendors. All this does to crafters is make their professions cost more points. Instead of 100ish for a crafting profession it will be pushed to 130-150ish. Theres nothing wrong with that if the devs want the game to be that way. To me that leaves very little room for other professions. You can't be a Crafter and a Master Combat professon at that same time then. I realize you can't currently either if you have the merchant skills, and thats where I think the problem is.
I think you fail to understand how it is supposed to work...
Andy Armoursmith Makes 100 suits of ubese armour
Wendy Weaponsmith makes 100 t21 Rifles
Mark Merchant buys the armour from Andy and the weapons from Wendy then sells them on their merchant vendors at a higher price than they paid for them.
Its the same as in RL where merchants (or retail corporations) buy large amounts of goods from manufaturers and sell them in their stores. Most manufacturers don't sell retail they sell wholesale to "merchants" who then sell retail.
The problem is that because it is so easy to set up and keep your own vendors with the current system there is no reason for a crafter to sell wholesale to a merchant.
If it worked correctly things would be much better for shoppers, instead of everyone and theirpethaving a store selling a few items there would be several large stores run by professional merchants selling a wide range of goods made by different crafters. And crafters could get their stock on sale accross the galaxy by selling it to multiple merchants on different planets. There is so much potential for merchant as a true retail profession is crafters would start to think like manufacturers and not expect to do the whole thing themselves.
The other thing preventing this is that the tools we have to do this are terrible. But there are ways to get around that and we are working towards a vendor interface revamp and hopefully we can get some of those features enhanced to the point where a lot more commerce will be possible.
lisasdarren wrote:
I think you fail to understand how it is supposed to work...
Andy Armoursmith Makes 100 suits of ubese armour
Wendy Weaponsmith makes 100 t21 Rifles
Mark Merchant buys the armour from Andy and the weapons from Wendy then sells them on their merchant vendors at a higher price than they paid for them.
Its the same as in RL where merchants (or retail corporations) buy large amounts of goods from manufaturers and sell them in their stores. Most manufacturers don't sell retail they sell wholesale to "merchants" who then sell retail.
The problem is that because it is so easy to set up and keep your own vendors with the current system there is no reason for a crafter to sell wholesale to a merchant.
If it worked correctly things would be much better for shoppers, instead of everyone and theirpethaving a store selling a few items there would be several large stores run by professional merchants selling a wide range of goods made by different crafters. And crafters could get their stock on sale accross the galaxy by selling it to multiple merchants on different planets. There is so much potential for merchant as a true retail profession is crafters would start to think like manufacturers and not expect to do the whole thing themselves.
Yes but in real economies the reason that shops are successful is that they are the only option because travelling miles to pick up individual items is innefficient. However I can walk into Coronet nearly 24 hrs a day and buy a T21 or order a set of composite at wholesale value.
And this is the crux of the matter, merchant will struggle to be a viable class because consumers are only interested generally in a small number of items easily obtainable wholesale. I myself have a favorite ws, as chef and smuggler that i frequent, but i dont tend to use the vendors. The problem is further compounded by the fact that many items are highly specialised, eg tailor wher the majority of sales are custom.
WHY on earth would i go to a merchant (who is likley to be further away) for a sale when i know he has a mark up on his prices.
God, is this still going on?
I still have the same opinion. I agree with both sides. I do not think that merchant is a viable profession and think we would be better off simply removing it from the game. Merchant is a skill a player has, not a character. Frankly, I'd rather have the points so I could master dancer as well as tailor.
However, since merchant is here to stay andthat isn't going to happen, keeping your vendors, merchant tents, and everything else after you drop the skillis simply an expoit and it should be fixed ASAP. I also simply do not believe anyone thinks this is legitimate. Deep in your heart, you know you're not supposed to keep vendors if you don't have the skill. I realize you want to do so, but have some honesty.
Calfek wrote:
Yes but in real economies the reason that shops are successful is that they are the only option because travelling miles to pick up individual items is innefficient. However I can walk into Coronet nearly 24 hrs a day and buy a T21 or order a set of composite at wholesale value.
And this is the crux of the matter, merchant will struggle to be a viable class because consumers are only interested generally in a small number of items easily obtainable wholesale. I myself have a favorite ws, as chef and smuggler that i frequent, but i dont tend to use the vendors. The problem is further compounded by the fact that many items are highly specialised, eg tailor wher the majority of sales are custom.
WHY on earth would i go to a merchant (who is likley to be further away) for a sale when i know he has a mark up on his prices.
You make it sound like no one is using vendors.. I don't do custom orders unless I have to and I sell items every day on my vendors and they are at least 1.5k away from any static city. They get business because they are there and they are always there. The custom order is great..but it means you have to wait to get it filled. If you want something today..right now..off the shelf.. You find a vendor that is offering it.
No one wants to remove the ability for crafters to sell their merchandise in Coronet..that is a fine way to sell things. But for the crafter it means they are dedicated to doing that for hours every day instead of just making items and letting people buy them on the vendor. It is a choice.
Know one wand to drive around to 50 vendors registries under "weapons" to look for a T21.
Part of that problem is also caused by people who keep the vendors after they drop the skill. A legit merchant has no reason to keep a vendor on the map if it is out of stock. However, thoughts players who have dropped the merchant skills have to keep the vendor reiterated on the map no mater what, thus the scores of empty vendors, out there.
Look at this from the buyers point of view. Witch of the following scenarios do you think the huge majority of players would prefer.
a) Drive around to a multitude of shops some empty some not, to find what they need.
b) Make custom orders from the crafters and wait on a tell or email that they have been completed, then go out to pick them up?
c) Go to one of a few huge malls that stock everything, and buy all they need with no whating involved at a slightly increased price?
The answer is C. most crafters have experienced the "Can I get it now if I pay x cr more" reply when you say it will take some time to make something.
Another point to this is that people who steal the skills have no way to shut off global advertisingin the first place. Once the skill is gone, so is the tab that allows the vendors to be advertised globally. This includes the ability to remove it from the global map.
Tarnak_Archvold wrote:
The single biggest reason for vendors not being so useful are that so many are empty or have a very small stock.
Know one wand to drive around to 50 vendors registries under "weapons" to look for a T21.
Part of that problem is also caused by people who keep the vendors after they drop the skill. A legit merchant has no reason to keep a vendor on the map if it is out of stock. However, thoughts players who have dropped the merchant skills have to keep the vendor reiterated on the map no mater what, thus the scores of empty vendors, out there.
Message Edited by Balkstar on 05-19-2004 10:58 AM
lisasdarren wrote:
I'm sorry, when did dropping clothes in a house/ shop start making them disappear?
Tailors can display clothing in the same way BE's can display pets and DEs can now display droids.
Actually, some clothes do disappear when dropped in a house, but they're in the minority.
The larger problem is that most clothes have at least two different models ("male" and "female"). When dropped in a house, they always take the "female" model. In some cases the two models are radically different, to the point where a male customer can't tell what he's going to end up getting.
The only way to get clothes to display the way they'll look on a male customer is to get Hiring IV and a whole mess of male vendors, and put the clothes on the vendors. (That or hire a bunch of players to stand in your shop AFK-macroing as clothes models all day.)
Of course, there's also the fact that the magically-hovering clothes with the arms held stiffly out at the sidesare a little immersion breaking. 
DocSavag wrote:
Calfek wrote:
Yes but in real economies the reason that shops are successful is that they are the only option because travelling miles to pick up individual items is innefficient. However I can walk into Coronet nearly 24 hrs a day and buy a T21 or order a set of composite at wholesale value.
And this is the crux of the matter, merchant will struggle to be a viable class because consumers are only interested generally in a small number of items easily obtainable wholesale. I myself have a favorite ws, as chef and smuggler that i frequent, but i dont tend to use the vendors. The problem is further compounded by the fact that many items are highly specialised, eg tailor wher the majority of sales are custom.
WHY on earth would i go to a merchant (who is likley to be further away) for a sale when i know he has a mark up on his prices.
You make it sound like no one is using vendors.. I don't do custom orders unless I have to and I sell items every day on my vendors and they are at least 1.5k away from any static city. They get business because they are there and they are always there. The custom order is great..but it means you have to wait to get it filled. If you want something today..right now..off the shelf.. You find a vendor that is offering it.
No one wants to remove the ability for crafters to sell their merchandise in Coronet..that is a fine way to sell things. But for the crafter it means they are dedicated to doing that for hours every day instead of just making items and letting people buy them on the vendor. It is a choice.
Sorry...just to clarify if vendors are removed and some type of functionality added that allows merchants to sell at a mark up then there is likley to be more consumer driven demand for items without a mark up. In addition people are more likley to respond to this as in the past they would say, sure here is a wp to my merchant. After a change they would be more likley to fulfil the order then and there. In effect you have people sitting around weaponsmiths and armoursmiths in the same manner that they currently sit around docs and smugglers.
All it would take is 2 or three masters doing this in coronet and people would be less likley to use vendors.
Calfek wrote:
DocSavag wrote:
Calfek wrote:
Yes but in real economies the reason that shops are successful is that they are the only option because travelling miles to pick up individual items is innefficient. However I can walk into Coronet nearly 24 hrs a day and buy a T21 or order a set of composite at wholesale value.
And this is the crux of the matter, merchant will struggle to be a viable class because consumers are only interested generally in a small number of items easily obtainable wholesale. I myself have a favorite ws, as chef and smuggler that i frequent, but i dont tend to use the vendors. The problem is further compounded by the fact that many items are highly specialised, eg tailor wher the majority of sales are custom.
WHY on earth would i go to a merchant (who is likley to be further away) for a sale when i know he has a mark up on his prices.
You make it sound like no one is using vendors.. I don't do custom orders unless I have to and I sell items every day on my vendors and they are at least 1.5k away from any static city. They get business because they are there and they are always there. The custom order is great..but it means you have to wait to get it filled. If you want something today..right now..off the shelf.. You find a vendor that is offering it.
No one wants to remove the ability for crafters to sell their merchandise in Coronet..that is a fine way to sell things. But for the crafter it means they are dedicated to doing that for hours every day instead of just making items and letting people buy them on the vendor. It is a choice.
Sorry...just to clarify if vendors are removed and some type of functionality added that allows merchants to sell at a mark up then there is likley to be more consumer driven demand for items without a mark up. In addition people are more likley to respond to this as in the past they would say, sure here is a wp to my merchant. After a change they would be more likley to fulfil the order then and there. In effect you have people sitting around weaponsmiths and armoursmiths in the same manner that they currently sit around docs and smugglers.
All it would take is 2 or three masters doing this in coronet and people would be less likley to use vendors.
Calfek wrote:
DocSavag wrote:
Calfek wrote:
Yes but in real economies the reason that shops are successful is that they are the only option because travelling miles to pick up individual items is innefficient. However I can walk into Coronet nearly 24 hrs a day and buy a T21 or order a set of composite at wholesale value.
And this is the crux of the matter, merchant will struggle to be a viable class because consumers are only interested generally in a small number of items easily obtainable wholesale. I myself have a favorite ws, as chef and smuggler that i frequent, but i dont tend to use the vendors. The problem is further compounded by the fact that many items are highly specialised, eg tailor wher the majority of sales are custom.
WHY on earth would i go to a merchant (who is likley to be further away) for a sale when i know he has a mark up on his prices.
You make it sound like no one is using vendors.. I don't do custom orders unless I have to and I sell items every day on my vendors and they are at least 1.5k away from any static city. They get business because they are there and they are always there. The custom order is great..but it means you have to wait to get it filled. If you want something today..right now..off the shelf.. You find a vendor that is offering it.
No one wants to remove the ability for crafters to sell their merchandise in Coronet..that is a fine way to sell things. But for the crafter it means they are dedicated to doing that for hours every day instead of just making items and letting people buy them on the vendor. It is a choice.
Sorry...just to clarify if vendors are removed and some type of functionality added that allows merchants to sell at a mark up then there is likley to be more consumer driven demand for items without a mark up. In addition people are more likley to respond to this as in the past they would say, sure here is a wp to my merchant. After a change they would be more likley to fulfil the order then and there. In effect you have people sitting around weaponsmiths and armoursmiths in the same manner that they currently sit around docs and smugglers.
Kind of hard to fulfill an order then and there if you're asked to do a factory run of Vagnerian Canapes with BE components. If your customer is willing to wait, then a vendor is entirely unnecessary - however, many aren't, and instead of waiting a day or so for the three factory runs the above order involves, your customer finds them same exact item on a vendor for 5% more, guess what? They're more often than not going to pay the extra 5%.
As for folks "sitting around weaponsmiths and armorsmiths", the high-demand items require specialized crafting tools, private crafting stations, and factories. You'll get one out of three if you bug a WP in Coronet. What you will see is a slight increase in custom orders, but I doubt there will be a noticeable impact on vendor sales.
Most folks can buy wholesale in real life; why is it that Wal-Martand 7-11 haven't gone out of business?
All it would take is 2 or three masters doing this in coronet and people would be less likley to use vendors.
Here's a simple, two-word refutation: "convenience store." Yep, two or three masters (in each crafting profession?) in Coronet, spending all day selling (when would they craft?) their items (at least, only the items that don't require factory runs or private crafting stations?) one at a time to customers crowding around them (whom you hope have the credits to pay for the goods, because otherwise you're stuck with stock you can't move) sounds good, in theory. In practice, ask yourself how often you've observed folks irritated because a Master Doctor wasn't available in Coronet to provide buffs. Now imagine that irritation for EVERY crafting profession...
It'sa basic idea- vendors, like stores, make a profit in part because of convenience and selection. My business has six vendors. I sell everything but weapons and droids (and, if I can get a wholesaler for those items, I'd sell those as well.) Instead of having to chase down the three or four Masters needed to make all of that stuff, my customers take a single shuttle trip, walk less than 100m, and voila! Vendors, with a good selection, reasonable prices, and the ability to stay online constantly. And, if they don't like what they see, they can then send me an e-mail and I can hook them up with a crafter who can fulfill custom orders.
Merchants are intended to be in the middle, between crafters and customers, for the majority (not ALL) of mercantile transactions. Instead, all I've seen are folks attempting to pull merchants out of that role and either remove them entirely or turn them into "vendor crafters." Both concepts would remove richness and socialization aspects from the game, further reducing it into a "can I buy better stuff than the next schmuck" PvP contest instead of a richly-varied virtual world where wheeling and dealing can be just as fun and as useful as slicing and dicing.
Comments above, in yellow.