CUEmu - Thread Posts

DarthAbbyssal

Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:23 am

PhoenixOrion wrote:

IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE SKILL TO PLACE A VENDOR, YOU SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO OWN ONE.

Plain and simple.

by this same logic, if you are not a TKA, you should not be able to use VK's, instead of using them at limited effectiveness, as is currently able. Same applies to any weapon, if you lack the skill, you can still use it, just without all the bonuses. Same applies to the venders, without the skill, they can still be used, just without the benefits. On top of that, you don't even need to be a TKA to get to use the VK's, from the earlier example...but you must take up the merchant line to drop NPC venders. So yeah, lets follow that line of reasoning...lets nerf all the combat prof's so they can only use weapons they have cert's for...while we're at it, why don't we push to get armor cert's in game too? I'm sure everyone would agree that only master BH's should get composit armor, right?

/sarcasm off

/flame suit on

joined42904

Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:30 am

#93

Well...DarthAbyssmal....

I'd be fine letting you have one vendor stocking 25 items if the vendor would randomly steal 20% of your stock each day and keep a hefty commission on everything sold. That's about as effectively as non-TKMs can use VKs.

Issadra 12-pt Master Armorsmith, Master Merchant
NERF Armory 5103, 2008 Lost Sanctum Dantooine
Specialty Shop and Outlet in Andromeda Corellia

Brilyn

Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:35 am

#94

< lets follow that line of reasoning...lets nerf all the combat prof's so they can only use weapons they have cert's for >

I'll pay you $10,000 in RL money if you can solo a Mokk lair with a T21 and no Marksman/Rifleman skills.

Your logic is flawed.

Brilyn
Master Weaponsmith
Master Shipwright
Main vendor on Naboo, Vagabond's Rest: -1850, 2330
Secondary vendor on Talus, Kyu'mai: 250, -4680
Starsider

Elyssa

Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:40 am

#95

Actually, as has been said many times through this thread, any player without merchant skills CAN use a vendor with "limited effectiveness" just likeany player canuse uncertified weapons.

It's called "The Bazaar"

It's got a 25 item limit and a 6k price limit.

And not even Master Merchants have the ability to "auction" an item on our own vendors (that would be cool, tho).

------
Elyssa Alexander (Elder Merchant Correspondent)
12pt. Master Structures Trader / Elder Jedi / Mayor, City of Metropolis
Shop Crazy Durni, Inc., now open in Metropolis, Corellia (885 -6605 Gorath)

"Why the big secret? People are smart, they can handle it."
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

Elyssa was 1000% correct
-Pawlin

BoberFett

Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:43 am

#96

Elyssa wrote:

Actually, as has been said many times through this thread, any player without merchant skills CAN use a vendor with "limited effectiveness" just likeany player canuse uncertified weapons.

It's called "The Bazaar"

It's got a 25 item limit and a 6k price limit.

And not even Master Merchants have the ability to "auction" an item on our own vendors (that would be cool, tho).

Heck yeah it would. I'd love to run an auction house that people could run big ticket items through.

DarthAbbyssal

Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:08 am

#97

joined42904 wrote:

Well...DarthAbyssmal....

I'd be fine letting you have one vendor stocking 25 items if the vendor would randomly steal 20% of your stock each day and keep a hefty commission on everything sold. That's about as effectively as non-TKMs can use VKs.

followed by:

Brilyn posted:

< lets follow that line of reasoning...lets nerf all the combat prof's so they can only use weapons they have cert's for >

I'll pay you $10,000 in RL money if you can solo a Mokk lair with a T21 and no Marksman/Rifleman skills.

Your logic is flawed.

I'll respond to both these at once, and double your offer, Brilyn: I'll offer you $20k RL cash AND shares in my company (I run a custom computers business) if you can cloth, activate barking, and register on the global map any vender without the merchant skills.

once a vender is placed and set, if you drop merch, that's it, all over, done, no modification available. Sure, you can still use it, but you can't modify it, move it, make it say anything defferent, ect. These penalties are just as harsh as the weapon penalties without certs. Yes, ok, non-merchants still get to use the vender, but the non-rifleman can still use the t-21, too. Ok, so the non-rifleman cant solo a Kimo...the non merch cant re-arange the venders, either. I still maintain some merchant skill. I also maintain combat skills on top of master WS and Artisian. My point was meant to show exactly what you pointed out-toons that do not have certs can still use items, just not at full effectiveness...same as non-merchant vender users.

Wire3k

Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:19 am

#98

Elyssa wrote:

This topic is false advertisement.

I came here looking for a valid "arguement" for why people who don't have merchant shouldn't lose their "venders" but I have yet to see one.

There are actually several, none of which are going to matter a tinker's damn to folks entrenched in a class that can't see past what they perceive as a grevious wrong - even if the 'solution' is selfdefeating.

Those that maintain vendors are the sole right of a merchant 'class' and refuse to acknowledge how pitiful the thing is as anything deserving of profession status will never see merchant as anything more than it is right now. By demanding this 'right' - you have successfully given the devs every reason in the world to continue ignoring development of very necessary and needed tools that MIGHT make it 'worth' the expended points to have. I HAVE a master merchant - and a 3rd account with a bit of merchant as well, but I understand all too well where folks are coming from on the other side of the fence, and they too have very valid issues, not the least of which is any game mechanic - bug or not that exists a year out from release becomes a 'norm' - and they have every right to pitch a fit over taking away functionality without replacing it with viable alternatives for the same needs.

By defining yourselfs ONLY by vendors you've limited yourself. Vendors have served many useful purposes - some good, some bad, but they've been player adaptations and workarounds to very needed functionality.

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BoberFett

Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:45 am

#99

DarthAbbyssal wrote:

I'll respond to both these at once, and double your offer, Brilyn: I'll offer you $20k RL cash AND shares in my company (I run a custom computers business) if you can cloth, activate barking, and register on the global map any vender without the merchant skills.

once a vender is placed and set, if you drop merch, that's it, all over, done, no modification available. Sure, you can still use it, but you can't modify it, move it, make it say anything defferent, ect. These penalties are just as harsh as the weapon penalties without certs. Yes, ok, non-merchants still get to use the vender, but the non-rifleman can still use the t-21, too. Ok, so the non-rifleman cant solo a Kimo...the non merch cant re-arange the venders, either. I still maintain some merchant skill. I also maintain combat skills on top of master WS and Artisian. My point was meant to show exactly what you pointed out-toons that do not have certs can still use items, just not at full effectiveness...same as non-merchant vender users.

You're not serious, are you? You think the real value of merchant is dressing vendors?

Get real. The value of merchant is having vendors to sell your stuff 24/7. Re-dressing vendors is all you lose if you drop merchant. How can you say that not moving a vendor is as harsh as not being certed for a weapon? If you're not certed for a weapon, you do a tiny fraction of the damage, and rarely hit what you're aiming at. A vendor that you're poaching still has all the advantages you bestowed upon it when you dropped merchant. It still barks, it's still on the map, it still sells your overpriced loot.

The equivalent to maintaining a vendor after you dropped merchant is still having all of the bonuses you get at master rifleman if you never unequip your T21. You could drop all rifleman, and take up master doctor and master medic. The only thing you can't do is unequip your T21, or you'd lose your rifle skills. How is that fair?

joined42904

Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:46 am

#100

DarthAbyssmal,

The real use of the merchant skill is not in the placement or barking or uniform of the vendor. That isn't the real use. The real use of the merchant skill is in the daily selling of merchandise, not what the vendor says or whether the vendor is attired in one manner or another.

The real use of the rifleman skill is in actively firing rifles and hopefully killing mission objectives or other objectives such as jedi or opposing factional players. The real use of the rifleman skill is not in the missions that you have accomplished in the past or the faction points that you earned in the past yet can still use even though you dropped the rifleman skill.

Is rearranging vendors the equal of killing a kimo? Or is what is equal to killing that kimo the use of the vendors to sell merchandise to other players on a daily basis? I think it's the latter.

Tell you what...you think those other things are the valuable aspect of merchant? I'd be for letting you have the barking and the rearranging of vendors but not putting them on the global map to confuse you. That's right...I'd be willing to let you have the things you think are the core of the merchant profession...if those vendors just can't sell merchandise.

Issadra 12-pt Master Armorsmith, Master Merchant
NERF Armory 5103, 2008 Lost Sanctum Dantooine
Specialty Shop and Outlet in Andromeda Corellia

Memnoch127

Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:00 pm

#101

Memnoch127 wrote:

ME personally i use venders that arent even intialized to dress them up for scenes in my guild hall and its a great attraction, it hurts nobody and nothing i cant even store anything on them as there not even intilized i hope they dont get deleted by this upcoming nerf/fix. If they poof i will not grind merchant just so i can make intresting things out of venders, oh well i will deal but still takes away a fun thing to do in this game for me.

oh before one of you brings up the whole spamming carbineer speicals when im not a carbineer argument remember im not useing the vender for anything other than display there not even intionalized.

So useing your argument im not spamming carbineer specials but i am hanging a Carbine on my wall and letting it sit there without useing it for decoration.

BountyBlunter

Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:25 pm

#102

Crimsonsplat wrote:

BountyBlunter wrote:

Crimsonsplat wrote:

THANK YOU WIRE!!

You put into clear and coherent words, the single best argument I have seen to date, in favor of my position: the merchant profession is a useless waste of points and should be removed from the game. Give the abilities to all crafting classes, and a lesser form of them to the "semi" crafters.

Question : If merchant is useless , why do you want the skills in merchant rolled out into your own professions ?.. If it were the case and merchant were useless then it should be removed from the game entirely and no skills should be passed on to the crafting professions at all as the crafting professions constantly state they are useless.. Sound logic I think..
Message Edited by BountyBlunter on 08-16-2004 04:25 PM

Bounty, you'r "sound logic" is a straw man fallacy. I didn't say it was a useless profession, I said it was a useless waste of points.

The abilities are just fine. It's paying so many points for so little in return that I object to. Again I state, as I have previously, the Merchant gives the least return in game skills/benefit for Skill Points of any profession. It's painfully obvious how much they had to dilute the abilities to fit 18 boxes. Since the "classic merchant" does not exist in SWG except as an anomaly orserving personal friends, the profession is little more than an adjunct to a crafting profession.

Want proof? Fine. I'll post a new thread with a question, and hopefully we will get answers, not flames.

In the future, please argueagainst my statements, not some distortion of them.

You said it was a usless waste of points, that is the same as saying it's a useless profession.. I am really , truly , sorry that I didn't see your slander of my profession for the correct type of slander.

You state that it's a useless waste of points then, to which I agree, while the profession can be exploited.. Once the profession can no longer be exploited it will no longer be a useless waste of points, if it was you wouldn't want the skills so bad now would you ? If you want the skills then it is NOT a waste of points..

Seems quite simple to me..

Your statements are not new, they are very , very old and I have argued against ones like it before.. It is not something I can really be bothered going into again. Your view on my profession is your own , not mine , it is personal opinion and I do not agree with you.. I think that for 63sp I get a lot of benefits.

Arok K'tah ::Radiant:: Master Doc + Producer of cheap buffs and medical supplies.

Hoz Turner ::Radiant:: Mayor of Avalon + Producer of cheap munchies and beverages.

If I hear one more person say they are cancelling an account, I'll cancel my account !

Anach

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:15 pm

#103

Without a vendor, its going to make it much harder to keep items, prices will rise, people will need to fi nd a trusted merchant to allow them to sell their gear, everyone will require even more skill points to be able to craft, sell and defend themselves, i for one wont be selling my old crap to newbies for cheap prices and I would need a second character just to maintain a vendor, which is rediculous.

This is why they need to introduce the ability to keep a small skill after you have mastered a prof.

Drop master doc - keep small stim use
Drop master scout - keep small tent ability
Drop master ranger - keep 10+ terrain negotiation.
Drop master merchant - keep 1 small vendor

etc

Keeping a % of the novice skills isnt much to ask for all the time spent training a profession. I mean who forgets how to drive a car when they learn to ride a motorcycle.

ALso what happens if you spent months getting Master armorsmith, made some armor for a few months, then decided you want to change, should you have to destroy all your armor you have left on your vendors?

After you place a vendor and then lose the skills, you cant move, replace or place a vendor, or change teh access fee on your building. Which already stops you from moving houses or vendors around, you also lose all other skills and privileges

Comparing the ability of an ex-master CM to keep poison is not a fair comparison, as anything worthwhile is a master ability for starters. It would be more of a comparison to say an Ex-master CM can usehis stims until they run out. Then not use or make anymore. That is a fair comparison. Though as a Master CM you can make 100000000 stims before you drop it, you cant make 100000000 vendors.

Comparing Master rifleman mind shot is not a fair comparison either, Though being able to equip a rifle when not a rifleman is a fair comparison. Though this would be more intune of vendor limits being further decreased for people not retaining the skill to place them.

Honestly though, They would need to make Merchants able to place secure, low item count,vendors for other people without adding to their limit. Or allow people ot retain their vendors, but with less function and then give Merchants more of a bonus for vendors.

Or give everyone a second character or more skill points.

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Wire3k

Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:02 am

#104

joined42904 wrote:

Wire3k,

Players in groups can of course work around vendors by selling to each other in person. That doesn't seem like "merchant" activity to me as you are dealing with identifiable individuals whom you have spoken to, not offering goods at fixed prices to the general public. I'm happy to let folks have this work-around. I don't think it harms the merchant profession at all.

Saying merchants should not define themselves by their vendors and discounts is in my opinion a lot like saying that riflemen should not define themselves by the types of rifles they have access to.

Vendors are the bridges between players. The beauty of a MMO is that folks are on at all different times but can still form communities and a cohesive whole, the problem with a MMO is - players are on at all different times. Vendors have and do play a large part in bringing all these pieces together so they can be cohesive.

The more bridges - the better off everyone is. Discounts, naw - all 'perks' SHOULD be skill retained only- the problem is, merchant has such pitiful 'perks' it's quite natural for those that retain the skill to be defensive - it's all they have. That doesn't mean the profession as it sits is worthy - in most players eyes - of being a class, much less an elite class.

What we've been given is a stick - what SHOULD be done are carrots - pump enough 'stuff' into merchant that it IS a viable WANTED alternative to spend points on, and oh - BTW, actually justify it as an elite class as well as addressingvery legitimate needs that the underlaying systems have mandated.

Jumping down folks throats here that come in seeking advice and calling them exploiters(or worse) is not very helpful. We all work with the systems given as best we can, and anyone that thinks that there are no problems and everything is just hunky-dory perfect can wipe the brown off their noses right now. There are problems. There are some very very SERIOUS problems, real needs that have developed from systems we have no control over. Of any player group - those that wish to sell goods should have the overall health and happiness of ALL players at heart - everyone is a potential customer.

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Thread: Why Should People Who Don't Have Merchant Loose Their Venders, A Valid Arguement Why They Shouldn't