Merchant Archive

Thread: Current Merchant Issues List

DocSavag
Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:01 pm
#66






Tharryth wrote:

From DocSavag:



Tomoto


Sorry but your proposals basically take all the skills from the Merchant profession and give them to other professions.


**** end C&P



This is a bit late Doc. Everyone has already gotten the ability of a scout to pull pets and vehicles from their DPs without investing any SPs in Scout. So you are saying no comprise is possible? Then you don't mind never calling a pet (if you have one) or a vehicle anywhere you like without using a camp? Even if your in the middle of no where scanning for resources and your bike autostores? And he wasn't talking about all of the skills per say. Just the ability to place 1-2 vendors (novice/master) to sell items from.



Just a thought







Pulling Pets and Vehicles from your datapad was never ascout skill. It was one of several places you could be to retrieve an item from your datapad. There were others. Scouts main source of revenue is supposed to be organic resources or combat missions supplemented by another profession. Vehicles and Pets were never an income for them. No one paid a scout to pull out a camp so they could get the bike out. Yes it did make it nice to have them on hunts and now the only reason for a camp on a hunt is for mind healing if you are lucky enough to have an entertainer along. Vendors are the main tool merchants use to conduct business. We have to expend our skill points to get them. It isn't unfair for you to have to expend the same skill points we do to get a vendor. Again.. if you are an artisan its 9 points.. 24 points if you have profession that isn't an artisan. That isn't unreasonable to have the ability to sell your items while you are not online.


Frankly I think scouts need some new features for their camps. Something that makes sense for wilderness survivial and doesn't create an artifical game mechanic to achieve (which pets and droids did)





----------------------------------
Chataka Windae
Rifleman/Combat Medic
CEO, Windae Enterprises
Mesric Sanctuary Founder



Myuki
Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:10 pm
#67


I empathise with all non-merchantpeople who need an outlet to sell their goods... It's called a MERCHANT!!! If you want to sell on a vendor, be a merchant. Otherwise, enter into an agreement with a merchant and sell through them. That the way it is. I hope the DEVs give everyone running an illegal vendor some time to get rid of their stuff before they delete the vendor, say 14 days. Then BAM! Get rid of the illegal vendors. When a person deletes the skills necessary to place vendors, the vendors should immediately begin to deteriorate as if they had no maintenance. After a few days, they should fall.


Can someone tell me when to expect the patch to fix the illegal vendors?


Thanks,


Myuki - Mayor Mountain View, Chilastra


Politician/Merchant


HalloranElder
Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:27 pm
#68






DocSavag wrote:

17Game PlayStop Vendor Rotating during Ad bark



You have removed the rotate commands from the vendor menu but the vendor still rotates himself when ad barking to someone outside the room. This causes the vendor to end up facing the wall. We request that the rotation during ad barking be disabled.





While this won't fix the fact they are rotating, the "/rotate [left|right] [degree's]" command will still work on them. In this case they are treated like any other piece of furniture.



Enjoy
Aj
----------------------------------------
Shop (Valcyn Server) - Amyrlin, Naboo (-235 3731) specialising in vehicles, vehicle customisation kits, furniture, installations and housing.
Chali Eld'r: Human Master Artisan, Master Architect - Halloran Eld'r: Human Novice Entertainer - Aj: Human Master Geek, Master Wierdo

AlanjaAngeli
Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:34 pm
#69






DocSavag wrote:






1ExploitMerchant Skill Point Exploitation


Currently it is possible to set up your merchant tent. Get your vendors, set your advertising. Dress the vendors and then surrender all merchant skills and business skills without any effect. You are then able to run your merchant enterprise without any merchant skills until you need to change some aspect of your shop. Many merchants feel this is unfair to them and allows people to use those skills for other crafting professions or combat professions which is against the spirit of the skill point system.





Perhaps you can clear somethings up for me, DocSavag.


I agree that yes, the profession needs to have this issue fixed, I have a few questions on the matter.


First of all - is this going into publish 9 with the 'empty vendors' not appearing on the map? And, if they do make it so you have to have the merchant skills to have merchants, are they really going to make the vendors just poof? While many of the merchants may feel it is 'fair' that these people loose all their resources and items, etc for exploiting, that is not a very wise idea PR wise because people do quit the game when they loose their items - and where many people may have quite a few things on their vendors, unless they are given a way to get them off after the change over, they will quit the game. And while people can feel it is fair, it comes across to non-merchants as petty of a person to wish such a misfortune on another player - I have lost items, not due to merchanting issues, and the feeling is not great. Loss of items forced upon the population by the devs will have horrible results and while many merchants will feel justice was served, the larger picture needs to be looked at here.


Secondly - will merchants be given more vendors in the skill trees? The reason for this question is two fold - one personal and one on the larger scale.


You see, my guild has set it's hall up as a Nightclub (smuggling guild, we use it as a front) and the idea was to have people drop non-functional vendors (non-initialized) vendors as NPCs to add to the atmosphere. The ones with actual items for sale were going to be run by the merchant in the guild, but the other vendors were to add a bit of flare to the Nightclub for RPing purposes.


If she can get more vendors, that would be great. If she can't, we won't be able to do this very well because most of her vendors will be tied up as city vendors. Yes, it's a selfish reason to ask the question, but that's part of it. I'm hoping that maybe they will give Bio-Engineers craftable faction pets that are humanoid so I can just drop deeds as NPCs, but chances of something like that are probably slim to none.


The second is for people who do run their city merchant areas and 'rent' out their vendorsor host vendorsso people in the city can sell their items. Six vendors is not going to cover all the various crafting professions very well, and a lot of cities only see one, maybe two dedicated merchants. Additional vendors would greatly help to keep item types seperated and give all the people in a city someplace to sell their items if they don't want merchanting skills (or the lame box vendor).


Again, I agree that this needs to be fixed, but I think that they will need to do a lot of things to merchant all at once to make it work right and not totally upset the non-merchant player base. If you can answer my questions, Doc, it would be great.










Xisria - Starsider: Silent Stranger, Privateer Captain
Veldriss An'ar - Starsider: Entertainer, Kaadara Shores Resort Manager
Koumi Kyoujin - Kettemoor: Force Sensitive,Indicisive Wanderer
-I support ATK playing!

DocSavag
Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:37 pm
#70






AlanjaAngeli wrote:





DocSavag wrote:






1ExploitMerchant Skill Point Exploitation


Currently it is possible to set up your merchant tent. Get your vendors, set your advertising. Dress the vendors and then surrender all merchant skills and business skills without any effect. You are then able to run your merchant enterprise without any merchant skills until you need to change some aspect of your shop. Many merchants feel this is unfair to them and allows people to use those skills for other crafting professions or combat professions which is against the spirit of the skill point system.





Perhaps you can clear somethings up for me, DocSavag.


I agree that yes, the profession needs to have this issue fixed, I have a few questions on the matter.


First of all - is this going into publish 9 with the 'empty vendors' not appearing on the map? And, if they do make it so you have to have the merchant skills to have merchants, are they really going to make the vendors just poof? While many of the merchants may feel it is 'fair' that these people loose all their resources and items, etc for exploiting, that is not a very wise idea PR wise because people do quit the game when they loose their items - and where many people may have quite a few things on their vendors, unless they are given a way to get them off after the change over, they will quit the game. And while people can feel it is fair, it comes across to non-merchants as petty of a person to wish such a misfortune on another player - I have lost items, not due to merchanting issues, and the feeling is not great. Loss of items forced upon the population by the devs will have horrible results and while many merchants will feel justice was served, the larger picture needs to be looked at here.


Secondly - will merchants be given more vendors in the skill trees? The reason for this question is two fold - one personal and one on the larger scale.


You see, my guild has set it's hall up as a Nightclub (smuggling guild, we use it as a front) and the idea was to have people drop non-functional vendors (non-initialized) vendors as NPCs to add to the atmosphere. The ones with actual items for sale were going to be run by the merchant in the guild, but the other vendors were to add a bit of flare to the Nightclub for RPing purposes.


If she can get more vendors, that would be great. If she can't, we won't be able to do this very well because most of her vendors will be tied up as city vendors. Yes, it's a selfish reason to ask the question, but that's part of it. I'm hoping that maybe they will give Bio-Engineers craftable faction pets that are humanoid so I can just drop deeds as NPCs, but chances of something like that are probably slim to none.


The second is for people who do run their city merchant areas and 'rent' out their vendorsor host vendorsso people in the city can sell their items. Six vendors is not going to cover all the various crafting professions very well, and a lot of cities only see one, maybe two dedicated merchants. Additional vendors would greatly help to keep item types seperated and give all the people in a city someplace to sell their items if they don't want merchanting skills (or the lame box vendor).


Again, I agree that this needs to be fixed, but I think that they will need to do a lot of things to merchant all at once to make it work right and not totally upset the non-merchant player base. If you can answer my questions, Doc, it would be great.














It won't be happening with the "Remove Empty Vendors from the Map" that is a small change. The vendor skill point fix is a major change and it will be a while yet though I don't know exactly when. Certainly not until after the Jedi Publishes (9 and 10)


As far as I know there is no plan to increase the number of vendors merchants have. I have asked a question about that which will probably be answered this week (but I don't know that it will be an answer that will help at all)





----------------------------------
Chataka Windae
Rifleman/Combat Medic
CEO, Windae Enterprises
Mesric Sanctuary Founder



AlanjaAngeli
Mon Jun 07, 2004 5:48 pm
#71






Balkstar wrote:




Frankly, I won't be sad to see exploiters go if they choose to leave. You seem to be worried about the exploiters feelings. What aboutthe rest of the players that have stolen extra skills outside of the alotment of skill points we all must work within? I'm still waiting for their apology. I have no sympathy for them.


Again, while it may seem like justice for the merchant, SOE is a business, and they are not going to stop treating things from that perspective. While I don't think that it should be easy to get the items back off the vendors once they revamp merchant, I think it still needs to be an option.


It would be a better move to make the vendors no longer accessible for someone without the skills. They should also be made inaccessible for customers, so they aren't still making money off of it. In order to regain access and get your items off of it, you have to pick up merchant again. Then if a person was unwilling to pick up merchant and did not retrieve their items off, they aren't going to have too much room to **edit** because they were given a way post-revamp to get them.


Problem is that they can become vending machines at any time. If you could hit the permenant vendor-off swtich on them, I wouldn't be as opposed to it, but as of now there is no switch, so therefore people should not have vendors that are not backed up by skill points, no matter if you are looking for ambiance in your club..


See, that's what bites about being an honest individual about it - even though I never turned on the vendors, people will always be paranoid that I would. I agree, maybe if there was a perma-off switch it would be better; there wasn't so I just never turned them on. A lot of RPers who use vendors as NPCs are the same way - they aren't poaching the merchant class, they are only being storytellers using an NPC.


Ask the tailor profession to see if they have an escalated time table for the development of manaquins. I think that is more to what your club needs more then vendors.


Back when I first started using vendors as NPCs, they weren't even talking about bringing in manaquins. The only way to have ambiant NPCs was to use a vendor or a droid deed, but really, droids give a different feeling than human beings. And if, like everything else, the addition of content for tailors is after JTL, then for the next 3 - 5 months my guild and my city is going to have to choose between having a bunch of vendors or having the NPCs we want. While yes, we can set the NPCs up as vendors, that leaves us only six because most people only have an artisan merchant or are now expecting Ylena to run a merchant for them. Personally, I liked having uninitialized vendors as the NPCs so they were distinctly seperated from the actual vendors.


And above that, 6 merchants still won't effectively handle an entire cities crafting population - people really do get put off when there are multiple types of items on one vendor because the interface to sort through them isn't always as user friendly as people claim and tends to bug often (at least on Lok, but I've heard the planet is having issues). If they really want to make merchants useful, more vendors will help because that's one more person the merchant can cover without having a hard to sort through vendor.
















Xisria - Starsider: Silent Stranger, Privateer Captain
Veldriss An'ar - Starsider: Entertainer, Kaadara Shores Resort Manager
Koumi Kyoujin - Kettemoor: Force Sensitive,Indicisive Wanderer
-I support ATK playing!

Vandaemus
Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:02 am
#72

If you remove the empty vendors from the map, wont this just encourage those who place vendors purely for xp to put 1 or 2 items on them ? even if you set a figure of say 10 items, it only takes then 10 individual units of resources to keep the vendor shown.


What if, instead, there was a number next to the vendors name indicating the number of items on the vendor. such as;


Vendor (37): <Name>


for a vendor with 37 items


Yes this will lengthen the name of the vendor, and a little more clutter to the map but it maybea solution to the problem and would indicate to anyone the well-stocked vendors.






Laskia / Dalvara - Infinity - Crafter / Gun-Bunny
Balkstar
Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:48 am
#73






AlanjaAngeli wrote:





It would be a better move to make the vendors no longer accessible for someone without the skills. They should also be made inaccessible for customers, so they aren't still making money off of it. In order to regain access and get your items off of it, you have to pick up merchant again. Then if a person was unwilling to pick up merchant and did not retrieve their items off, they aren't going to have too much room to **edit** because they were given a way post-revamp to get them.


Then I suggest exploiters start unpacking their vendors now. There is ample time before this fix is in place. There has been more than enough postings here that stated that SOE is in the process of fixing the vendors. Why not save them the hassle of the the inevitable? The poachersare in the wrong. It's only a matter of time before they are going to have to fess up to it anyways.


See, that's what bites about being an honest individual about it - even though I never turned on the vendors, people will always be paranoid that I would. I agree, maybe if there was a perma-off switch it would be better; there wasn't so I just never turned them on. A lot of RPers who use vendors as NPCs are the same way - they aren't poaching the merchant class, they are only being storytellers using an NPC.


How far is ambiance going to go? Concider me a pessimist of human nature. The thought of finding illegal arms sellers, or spice dealers, or, heaven-forbid, abartender in cantinascan appeal to too many people when decorating a cantina, so much so that the temptaion of using them more then just dummies appeals to them.Just by having empty NPC vendors there opens up the possiblilty of their use for more that just human decorations. If the vendors are deleted once the merchant player drops the necessary skills to maintain them, all of this argument is eliminated.




Balkstar Bartoc - 56th level Smuggler, Ex-Master Smuggler, Ex-Master Merchant, Privateer Ace Pilot,

Coosin Larstar - 90th Level Jedi, Ex-Master Fencer, Ex-TKM

Flurry

aazatgrabya
Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:23 pm
#74

Great listing DocSavage. I must, however,stress one more issue that is bugging the hell out of me. It's bugged me for months now, but having a relatively busy RW right now means it is just emphasising my frustrations.


The issue is this: Stockroom reselling. I agree the stockroom needs to be an active dumping ground for idle stock, and yes it should gradually empty as time goes by. However, reselling requires us to re-price everything. As a tailor I have a large stock of individually priced items. This is hugely time consuming. Anyway, I'd been offline for a week so thought I'd better get back into the game for a while. I was struck with a stockroom of 748 items! I stuck my head down and and started grinding my way through the list. Not too long after starting I was kicked from the server due to my avatar being idle! humph! Annoyed I left SWG and started playing simething a little more fun - like watching paint dry. Today I logged on only to find much of the original stock deleted, not a complaint - that was entirely my fault - but it did mean I had less to re-sell. However, I was again kicked due to being idle. This is griefing plain and simple. There is no fun to be had spending hours at a time managing these infuriating vendors. I love this game. I've devoted untold hours to it over the last 8 months or so. But I really ambeginning to reconsider starting the game at all. I'm far more excited about playing games with my friends that are more player friendly.


Please Devs I emplore you - do something about this soon? At least give us hope that it'll be resolved sometime in the future!?
Izit_Dedyet
Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:51 pm
#75


===========================================================================================

Balkstar wrote


Good bye! Good Luck! Don't let the door hit your A$$ on the way out! We don't need any more exploiters!


============================================================================================



Before I start I need to just clarify something: I'ma weaponsmith, but I need to be able to sell stuff... To that end I run 6 vendors, I'm an ex master merchant andI have 4 vendors registered on the plantatory map, I run a 'storage' vendor* and a 'special orders' vendor that aren't registered.


I sell weapons, vehicles, repair tools, powerups, misc looted rubbish, WUKs, AUKs**, (Clamps, laser knives and Spices***) in 2 locations


I'm a master WS and master artisan, also I have some swordsman (I need that to loot the stuff that keeps me going as a WS! (and so that I don't get killed trying to empty harvesters...) Somewhere in there I'm also trying to holo grind... Notice the problem yet?


Hint: it's skill point related...


So how/why exactly do I keep the 32 'dead' skill points that you guys think I should keep (merchant 3004) to maintain my place on the map and the vendors that I'm using? It's all well and good making 'expoiters' the sons of satan and getting off on your high horse about it, but the reality is that 99% of templates just don't have room to maintain these 'dead' skill points, and someone somewhere needs to wake up and smell the coffee...


I really, really can't believe that there are ppl that can't see that and that think that ppl that drop Merchant once they've done what they want to do are in some way 'explioting' something. Merchant expoits people. It chews up skill points that would be better served allowing you to fill the vendor in the 1st place.

Here's an odd thought: If it wasn't for the merchant prof we wouldn't have 1000's of empty vendors all over the place created by ppl who were just grinding the profession on their way to a Jedi...

I need my vendors to sell my goods, but I also need my skill points to allow me to play my toon the way I want to. Tbh if someone turns round and tells me that I can't keep my vendors if I don't have the 32 Sps invested then it will probably the final nail in the coffin. for SWG. There so much stuff in this game that just plain doesn't work properly (the 1st 2 posts in the thread have a number of them and that's just in this proffession) that I don't see why this needs 'fixing'

Maybe if you don't have the skill to host a vendor any more, or to maintain your spot on the plantory map the vendor maintenace should double? or maybe treble?, posible multiply by the number of 'illegal' vendors you have?

But the skill says 'Place Vendor'. or 'advertize vendor on map' If I have the skill to do that at that time then it is done.


The analogy with a Doc buffing after he is no longer a Doc theat keeps being used is wrong. A merchant performs the action with that skill AT THAT TIME, if someone was to drop merchant and then want to advertize on the map then he would, quite rightly, be unable to do so. If I got buffed by a Doc then then dropped his doctor skills right after he'd buffed me my buff wouldn't sudden;y disappear...


THERE IS NO EXPLOIT HERE! (though perhaps the skills need rewording?)


Oh for the record, and before I got flamed into non-existance atm my toon is:

Master WS, Master Artisan, Swords 0404, tailor 0100 (yeah I'm meant to be grinding it, but cba) and merchant 3004




*it's got 14 bags on it, so it's not exaclty causing item capping issues now is it?

**yes I have to take and drop novice armoursmith once a month to do this.

***my alt (2nd char) is a smuggler...



Izit, Am-i & R-we Dedyet
Grammsy
Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:01 am
#76

I brought up the 'elevator music' option with a friend and he thought that was so funny, we had a good chuckle about it, but i think its a fantastic idea and needs to be implemented. I know its not of utmost importance here with merchant, but definitely a great way to bring some atmosphere in to this game,
AlanjaAngeli
Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:36 am
#77






Balkstar wrote:






Then I suggest exploiters start unpacking their vendors now. There is ample time before this fix is in place. There has been more than enough postings here that stated that SOE is in the process of fixing the vendors. Why not save them the hassle of the the inevitable? The poachersare in the wrong. It's only a matter of time before they are going to have to fess up to it anyways.


Again, as much as you, a merchant, consider it Poetic Justice, SOE has to look at things from a larger perspective. Yes, they will probably give an official announcement on the launch pad, but they know that people skip over reading that logging in. And we all know that a very small percentage of people who own the game actually come to the message boards, and some players don't even know they exist, so saying "They were warned on the boards" will not cut it either.


SOE does have to look at the PR impact of this regardless of whether merchants feel not deleting the vendors is fair or not - they are already seeing a lot of cancellations, and it's just smart business not to do something that they know will drive players from the game - regardless of whether or not they are 'poachers' as you call them.


Vindictiveness of this level is not good for a game - yes, it wasn't fair to the people who actually kept merchant skills that people could drop the skills and keep the vendors, but turn the other cheek and be a nice person. I'm not saying let them access the non-skilled vendors without regaining skill, I am saying that the player base needs to be given the option to get the items and money on the vendors back off of them even after the change goes in - whether that requires them to pick up enough merchant skill to make the vendors legal again or a CSR's assistance or paying a fine, the option needs to be there or it just makes the merchant community and the developers look like a pack of rabid wolves.


And again, while some people read these boards, and read the newsletters and read the information on the launch pad, most people don't and that has to be taken into account. Screwing someone over because this is their first game and they don't realize how important things like that are is completely off-base and will lose a lot of respect and customer support.


How far is ambiance going to go? Concider me a pessimist of human nature. The thought of finding illegal arms sellers, or spice dealers, or, heaven-forbid, abartender in cantinascan appeal to too many people when decorating a cantina, so much so that the temptaion of using them more then just dummies appeals to them.Just by having empty NPC vendors there opens up the possiblilty of their use for more that just human decorations. If the vendors are deleted once the merchant player drops the necessary skills to maintain them, all of this argument is eliminated.


And how far does the merchant community need to go in it's paranoia of saying that someone who uses vendors as NPCs without the skills will always become one of these 'poachers' and use the vendors for goods?


The reason I'm arguing on that mentality is that I'm sick of people instantly accussing others over something so silly. A lot of people I know that use vendors for NPCs either don't have them turned on, don't have anything but a chance cube stating that it is just an NPC and not a real vendor or actually keep enough skill to cover ones they do use as merchants. But time and time again, so called 'honest' merchants refuse to see that not everyone who has a vendor up without the skills is a 'poacher'.


Ambience is something a lot of RPers really care about, and while that might not matter to you, it matters to some people in the game, and I wish people would stop being jerks to those people because they are paranoid that they might become a 'poacher'.


As far as it goes, player created ambiance is far more important to me than almost anything else in this game. There is content in SWG, yes, but most of it has to be built upon and further created by players. If dropping an empty or uninitialized vendor furthers that, then why worry that they are stealing from you and your skill points.










Xisria - Starsider: Silent Stranger, Privateer Captain
Veldriss An'ar - Starsider: Entertainer, Kaadara Shores Resort Manager
Koumi Kyoujin - Kettemoor: Force Sensitive,Indicisive Wanderer
-I support ATK playing!

Viake
Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:17 am
#78

The merchant skill point exploitation is unfair. Some other classes have similar exploits - a cantina is still a cantina if the Master Entertainer who placed looses the skill, hospitals the same for doctors. These dont have the same "personal" effect as they tend to be used by and benefit the community rather than an individual.


If, as I understand is being planned, the dev's remove vendors that non-merchants currently have up, it willl have a detrimental effecton the game. Many people use the vendors as storage not as a method of competing unfairly with merchants. Unless the storage issue is dealt with at the same time as the exploitation one you are likely to cause players to simply abandon the game as their assets are removed at a stroke. If the storage issue is not dealt with then a possible fix would be to cap non-merchant vendors prices in line with the bazaar, i.e 6000cr max price. Any item on the existing vendors would be capped at this price, bringing player vendors in line with bazaars and giving the edge back to the merchant populations.


My first post so be kind :-)



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