Merchant Archive
Thread: Pleading on behalf non-Merchants
DingoBoi wrote:
LukeBorgman wrote:
You're right. I see I was not very clear. I did mean to keep it after surrendering Artisan.
I give you a bone but i'll shove it up your ass first.
This is an exploit.
Obviously SOE doesn't think so, otherwise there would be a lot of banned accounts.
I really don't think any discussion like this will ever go anywhere. Merchants want their skills to be useful, non merchants basically want the profession to be deleted because it is next to worthless. This won't change. SOE isn't going to do a complete revamp of how merchant works.
The bonus of merchant will be to be able to have vendors. All this does to crafters is make their professions cost more points. Instead of 100ish for a crafting profession it will be pushed to 130-150ish. Theres nothing wrong with that if the devs want the game to be that way. To me that leaves very little room for other professions. You can't be a Crafter and a Master Combat professon at that same time then. I realize you can't currently either if you have the merchant skills, and thats where I think the problem is.
The current form of merchant(and what it looks like the devs will implement) is nothing more than an extension to the crafting classes. Very few people will ever be just merchants and have no items that they make. The tools are not there for me to go to a merchant to sell my items. If they were, great. I would really consider that. I wouldn't mind paying a fee either to the merchant.
Merchant is not its own class. All it is is a support class for other professions. No other profession is like this. I don't see it ever being like this. As long as crafters are requires to have merchant somewhere in their template all it will be is an extention of other classes and never stand on its own.
Calfek wrote:
Would a sensible situation not be that once people drop the skills they can no longer add maintainence to the vendor (though they still have the option to withdraw) or that non skilled merchants have 10 times the maintainece required. This fits in much closer to the benifits recieved in other crafting careers.
- Place Vendors.
- Drop Merchant.
- Make 50x1000 schematics for armour.
- Drop Armoursmith.
- Produce and sell goods on vendors.
- Master Weaponsmith.
- Make 50x1000 schematics for weapons.
- Drop Weaponsmith.
- Produce and sell goods on vendors.
- Master Architect.
- Make 50x1000 schematics for harvestors.
- Drop Architect.
- Produce and sell goods on vendors.
DocSavag wrote:
Its hard to judge exactly what will happen in the next few months because there is going to be a lot of changes that will effect the economy. The first one will be the end of the Holocron Grind which will have a ripple effect through the entire game. Some good things will come from that ending and some bad (resources prices are likely to drop again becasue of lower demand for one thing)
I don't think the revocation of vendors that aren't being held my active merchants will ruin the economy. I think people will still sell things. They will have a choice on how to do it. Some will sell more on the bazaar. I don't fear that will tax the bazaar system all that much for a few reasons, one of which is that the vendors and the bazaar use the same database connections. The second is that they are rewriting the bazaar/vendor backend code night now to make it more efficient.
Completely agree on the first part. Noone really knows what will happen, not even the devs. The hologrind going away, combat rebalance, and many other things are major game changes that will not be fully realized for months after they are live.
While I don't think it will ruin the economy I do think major changes will happen in the crafting aspects. For myself at least, the skill points just aren't there. I might be able to get 3000 Merchant but from the looks of it that will be a fairly low limit on the 2 vendors I can own. Like many have said its hard to know what the changes will be. I just think this will be the point where a fair number of crafters retire. All of them? No, not even close as I'm guessing a decent amount of crafters are still merchants.
This will be a change though. How big of one depends on other aspects of the game. I really don't know if major changes like this are a good thing for a MMORPG 9-12 months into the game. The balance between keeping players and making the game better for new players is a hard balance to keep.
Numen wrote:
You can't be a Crafter and a Master Combat professon at that same time then. I realize you can't currently either if you have the merchant skills, and thats where I think the problem is.
This just isn't true.
Master Droid Engineer, Armorsmith, Weaponsmith, Tailor, Chef = (Master Crafter)
+
Artisan XX3X = (Vendor at Business III)
+
Master Pistoleer, Carbineer, Rifleman, TKA, Fencer, Swordsman, Pikeman = (Master Combat Profession)
+
52 spare skill points to play with to get more vendors or other merchant skills or even medic or some other combat skills
The only two combat classes you cannot be and also be a crafter are Bounty Hunter and Commando.
BountyBlunter wrote:
Calfek wrote:
Would a sensible situation not be that once people drop the skills they can no longer add maintainence to the vendor (though they still have the option to withdraw) or that non skilled merchants have 10 times the maintainece required. This fits in much closer to the benifits recieved in other crafting careers.
That wouldn't work at all because people would just add so much money to the vendor that it wouldn't make a difference if they couldn't add maintenance to it.. Also x10 maintenance on a vendor would be the same, the people who are using the vendor would not care about it being 150cph instead of 15cph.. To be frank, bob, neither would I because I could make enough to maintain the vendor for a day in one mission.. Not only that but if you have no buisness skills it's impossible for you to access a vendors admin menu in any way.So that's not a sensible solution, only masking the problem and making people pay a little more for the use of something they shouldnt be using.
I thought DocSavag's points where enough to get people to see the light, but if not...
- Master Merchant.
- Place Vendors.
- Drop Merchant.
- Master Armoursmith.
- Make 50x1000 schematics for armour.
- Drop Armoursmith.
- Produce and sell goods on vendors.
- Master Weaponsmith.
- Make 50x1000 schematics for weapons.
- Drop Weaponsmith.
- Produce and sell goods on vendors.
- Master Architect.
- Make 50x1000 schematics for harvestors.
- Drop Architect.
- Produce and sell goods on vendors.
When you reach the bottom of that list I wrote, you only have one thing remaining apart from the hoardes of cash you made from any of the professions mastered and dropped.. The vendors...
So your saying "But the skill is for placing the vendor, blah blah blah", how about this. Who out of the player base currently has the ability to access the vendor menu and place items for sale on the vendors ? last time I checked only someone with buisness III or above could actually do that, and once you get a new vendor skill it allows you to efficively place and USE that vendor as you yourself pointed out..
So, if you have PLACED four vendors you need the skills of management which allowed you to place the additional vendors in order to USE each additional vendor you placed, so the more you surrender skills out of merchant the more vendors become nothing more than a closing down sale where the vendor runs out of stock and maintenance until it is destroyed, to the point where you have one useable vendor at Buisness III, surrender that and your no longer capable of doing any buisness...
They are still there because, yes, you PLACED them with your skill, and the skill is for placing, but its also for managing the vendors, unlike a weapon there is no way for any player to access the admin on any vendor without having the skills to do so, and as each vendor placed requires a level, and the level allows use of the vendor, use should be removed if you no longer have the skill..
People should stop mincing words to try and justify what is clearly a bugand be quiet about it taking the time they have before it's changed to enjoy something they dont deserve..
And it will be changed...
Actually when you reach the bottom of that list you have 150000 elite crafting career items crafted without skill points, oh and 4 vendors. That is possibly the worst argument ive heard. You really believe that the retention of the ability to make 150000 items equates to having a merchant there.
And yet you dont hear complaints about this, im not complaining about it i think its fine.
The problem is that people would be more than happy to see all of merchant condensed into the business artisan tree, and this includes the majority of crafters (who incidently are the reason that merchants exist).
After all at master TKA i got the ability to heal all my wounds and cause immense damage, at master WS i got the ability to make T21's and Power Hammers. At master merchant i got...................erm 1 more vendor slot.
And this is the fundemental problem, merchant is a support class, but not one that requires any effort, compared to most other elite careers. This is why people feel resentful towards giving up sp.
Finally you say that it will happen. Thunderhearts oft quoted comment states that its a bit early to talk about this yet, and be careful what you wish for, SOE may just do away with the class and put it in artisan, then you'd be less happy.
p4Samwise wrote:
I understand the terms perfectly well, and the argument that you've built around them, but since they have every appearance of being an artificial distinction generated solely to support your pre-existing stance on this issue, I don't give them a lot of weight.
How hard is it to understand the numerous posts from SOE's staff that said that the vendors ar merchant specific? They clearly define that vendors are intended as merchant-only tools. Do you choose simply to ignore them, thinkingit isa figment of your imagination? Wow! You really do have issues dealing with reality. Come back out of the fantasy world that you are living in.
You did hit the nail on the head regarding the "legs" of the Interior Design profession, though. That's the main reason I can't be too quick to condemn "vendor poaching" - a great deal of its potential uses really seem to me to be in the same category as interior decorating. In particular, the entire Hiring branch is essentially giving you interior decorating skills (since there's no difference whatsoever between the different vendor levels except theirappearance in your shop), and the same is true to some extent of the Management branch (since one might place extra vendors in the same spacefor aesthetic rather than business reasons).
The problem is that they are more then mere wall hangings. They have numerous functions on top of them looking pretty.
1. They sell goods.
2. They are a point of access for people to sell goods to the merchant.
3. They are the world-wide avertising engine for one's shop.
4. They allow customizable speeches for local advertisement.
Had the Hiring focused on nothing but creating maniquins that only showed off goods, your arguement may have had a little weight, but only a little. The fact is that, even though you may not use these vendingspecial abilities granted by the vendors you drop for maniquins (which I still highly doubt), the ability for these vendorsformore then fashion statements for your shop cannot be ignored. They are a vending machine just like the Coke Machine that anyone can get for Buisness 3, with all its great powers. Those powers were intended to be granted by SOE to those that invested permenantly the skill points.
To me, that's leagues away from using those "poached" vendors to maintain an interplanetary trade empire.
Thank god its just you. Too many people have been using stolen skill points to give themselves an adavantage over the rest of the law-abiding players out there. I sure as hell will call what they create an "interplanetary trade empire"
Calfek wrote:
BountyBlunter wrote:
Calfek wrote:
Would a sensible situation not be that once people drop the skills they can no longer add maintainence to the vendor (though they still have the option to withdraw) or that non skilled merchants have 10 times the maintainece required. This fits in much closer to the benifits recieved in other crafting careers.
That wouldn't work at all because people would just add so much money to the vendor that it wouldn't make a difference if they couldn't add maintenance to it.. Also x10 maintenance on a vendor would be the same, the people who are using the vendor would not care about it being 150cph instead of 15cph.. To be frank, bob, neither would I because I could make enough to maintain the vendor for a day in one mission.. Not only that but if you have no buisness skills it's impossible for you to access a vendors admin menu in any way.So that's not a sensible solution, only masking the problem and making people pay a little more for the use of something they shouldnt be using.
I thought DocSavag's points where enough to get people to see the light, but if not...
- Master Merchant.
- Place Vendors.
- Drop Merchant.
- Master Armoursmith.
- Make 50x1000 schematics for armour.
- Drop Armoursmith.
- Produce and sell goods on vendors.
- Master Weaponsmith.
- Make 50x1000 schematics for weapons.
- Drop Weaponsmith.
- Produce and sell goods on vendors.
- Master Architect.
- Make 50x1000 schematics for harvestors.
- Drop Architect.
- Produce and sell goods on vendors.
When you reach the bottom of that list I wrote, you only have one thing remaining apart from the hoardes of cash you made from any of the professions mastered and dropped.. The vendors...
So your saying "But the skill is for placing the vendor, blah blah blah", how about this. Who out of the player base currently has the ability to access the vendor menu and place items for sale on the vendors ? last time I checked only someone with buisness III or above could actually do that, and once you get a new vendor skill it allows you to efficively place and USE that vendor as you yourself pointed out..
So, if you have PLACED four vendors you need the skills of management which allowed you to place the additional vendors in order to USE each additional vendor you placed, so the more you surrender skills out of merchant the more vendors become nothing more than a closing down sale where the vendor runs out of stock and maintenance until it is destroyed, to the point where you have one useable vendor at Buisness III, surrender that and your no longer capable of doing any buisness...
They are still there because, yes, you PLACED them with your skill, and the skill is for placing, but its also for managing the vendors, unlike a weapon there is no way for any player to access the admin on any vendor without having the skills to do so, and as each vendor placed requires a level, and the level allows use of the vendor, use should be removed if you no longer have the skill..
People should stop mincing words to try and justify what is clearly a bugand be quiet about it taking the time they have before it's changed to enjoy something they dont deserve..
And it will be changed...
Actually when you reach the bottom of that list you have 150000 elite crafting career items crafted without skill points, oh and 4 vendors. That is possibly the worst argument ive heard. You really believe that the retention of the ability to make 150000 items equates to having a merchant there.
If that was my point I would have agreed.
And yet you dont hear complaints about this, im not complaining about it i think its fine.
That's because that system is 'working as intended'
The problem is that people would be more than happy to see all of merchant condensed into the business artisan tree, and this includes the majority of crafters (who incidently are the reason that merchants exist).
After all at master TKA i got the ability to heal all my wounds and cause immense damage, at master WS i got the ability to make T21's and Power Hammers. At master merchant i got...................erm 1 more vendor slot.
And this is the fundemental problem, merchant is a support class, but not one that requires any effort, compared to most other elite careers. This is why people feel resentful towards giving up sp.
Finally you say that it will happen. Thunderhearts oft quoted comment states that its a bit early to talk about this yet, and be careful what you wish for, SOE may just do away with the class and put it in artisan, then you'd be less happy.
Personally that wouldn't bother me as master artisan is already part of my template.
Balkstar wrote:
Wow! You really do have issues dealing with reality. Come back out of the fantasy world that you are living in.
Good, I can feel your anger. I am unarmed. Take your weapon. Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
The problem is that they are more then mere wall hangings. They have numerous functions on top of them looking pretty.
1. They sell goods.
2. They are a point of access for people to sell goods to the merchant.
...They are a vending machine just like the Coke Machine that anyone can get for Buisness 3, with all its great powers. Those powers were intended to be granted by SOE to those that invested permenantly the skill points.
You hit the nail on the head - they are vending machines just like the Coke Machine.
Aside from planetary advertising (which I will completely agree should not be available to non-active Merchants), they have no powers above the coke machines (other than looking pretty).
Therefore, what unfair advantage is someone getting by keeping a nicely-decorated vendor (or even several all in the same location)and then dropping everything down to Business 3 (which they have to keep anyway if they're a Master Artisan), assuming they don't use advertising? ZERO benefit other than decoration. That's right. The sole benefit they're getting is increased home decor abilities. And that's all I, for one,want or need.
They are not important....therefore you MUST give them to us for free.
Doesn't work for me. If you are so all fired hot to have these mere "decorations" then give up the skills for them. Otherwise just use the "Coke Machine" you just admitted was just as good.
As a merchant I don't care at all about the decorative aspect of vendors if they don't work as vendors. If they just disabled them so you couldn't sell from them I would be fine with you keeping them forever.
A better use of your time might be to try to build support for other types of placeable NPC's that weren't tied to merchant skills at all. I don't have any issue with that either and I doubt many merchants do. The problem with building a case for using them as decoration is that we can't prevent you from using them to sell merchandise from them once you have them. If they don't sell merchandise then they aren't vendors and therefore I don't care what you do with them after that.
Message Edited by DocSavag on 05-18-2004 02:08 PM
Numen wrote:
The current form of merchant(and what it looks like the devs will implement) is nothing more than an extension to the crafting classes. Very few people will ever be just merchants and have no items that they make. The tools are not there for me to go to a merchant to sell my items. If they were, great. I would really consider that. I wouldn't mind paying a fee either to the merchant.
DocSavag wrote:
A better use of your time might be to try to build support for other types of placeable NPC's that weren't tied to merchant skills at all.
I completely agree, that would be the optimal solution.
Put those in before removing the only availableworkaround. That's all I ask.
p4Samwise wrote:
Numen wrote:
The current form of merchant(and what it looks like the devs will implement) is nothing more than an extension to the crafting classes. Very few people will ever be just merchants and have no items that they make. The tools are not there for me to go to a merchant to sell my items. If they were, great. I would really consider that. I wouldn't mind paying a fee either to the merchant.
Numen, you'll probably get a lot of hate from this board for saying this (I'm surprised it hasn't started flying already), but I agree with you.
I love the concept of being a merchant and focusing solely on selling goods. It's what I started this game with the intention of doing. But as you said, the tools just aren't there. The entire vendor/housesystem is geared towards vendors being used by the crafter - no effort whatsoever has been put into making it easy for the merchant to act as the middleman. The best mechanism available at this point is the pitifully inadequate "offer to vendor" function, which doesn't send an email to the vendor owner like it should, and doesn't provide any easy way to track the agreed-upon price or markup. Even relatively minor interface changes could address this, but there's no indication that there are any plans to make them.
At the same time, vendors are downright necessary for a lot of functions that should be available to any player. In particular, if you have a custom order for another player who's not logged in at the same time you are, you can't make the transaction without either a vendor or an entire house dedicated to the purpose. This is patently ridiculous. They don't have a mailbox built into their home? I can't leave it in their safety deposit box? Bah!
I've already ranted on the lack of mannequins for tailors, so I won't repeat myself there.
The point is, the merchant class was a great idea that got woefully misimplemented. The merchant skills tie up functionality that should be more broadly available (mailboxes and mannequins) while not providing the functionality needed to actually do the job of "merchant" (a decent system for reselling goods). Small wonder that there are so many frustrated full-time merchants and so many grudging dabblers.
I agree with just about all of that until your solution is allowing people to keep using our tools without being a merchant. I'll post in support of any thread you point me to for Tailor Mannequins. Send me a link and I"ll agree with you on that.
I'll even post my agreement on your proposal for "mailboxes" provided they can be implemented without griefing and without giving people another source of unlimited item storage.
I have already posted TONS of words asking and begging for better tools for the merchant profession.
But what I can't agree with is the use of any of that to justify allowing vendors (the tool of the merchant profession) to be used by people who want the benefits of our profession without using skill points to secure it.