Merchant Archive
Thread: Don't Panic 411 On TC Vendor Changes Not So Bad!
Page 5 of 5
Bethya
Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:26 am
#53
Can I just put my Ranger hat on for a second to try and encourage those who are deeply upset.
The patch before this one saw a major change to the harvesting dynamics in SWG. Spot the similarities here:
1. SWG came to the ranger forum and said we are making these changes, let's talk.
2. We talked... alot
3. SWG ignored our talk and put something on TC that sucked the big one
4. We talked... alot (and got together some concrete data via the TC on the problems and reported it in via our corr)
5. SWG (mostly) ignored our talk and put something on live that made one or two changes but left it with one particularly bad anomaly for Master Rangers.
6. They announced the patch and Rangers flooded the board where the announcement had been made with comments on that patch saying how rubbish it was and pointing out yet again the concrete data we had gathered and the problems with their work.
Then, this is the big difference - Gordon Walton read the comments and initiated a change that saw Master Ranger's abilities in harvesting jump drastically and (basically) resolve the tension.
So what can the merchants learn? Well, firstly, I think do not be downcast that SWG never listen. As you can see from my example, mostly they didn't listen and yes it went live with major problems BUT it did change and I would encourage you not to see this situation for yourselves as utter defeat but to do something about it. The Rangers did and got a result. No good just sitting there moaning and accepting defeat.
Summerflame
Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:02 am
#54
I think you hit the nail on the head there. Theyre trying to make SWG a WoW/EQ2 lookalike cause theyre afraid of loosing csotumers. What they doesnt realize is that they had a niche where they were untouchable. No other game has the crafting and economy SWG has achieved. Now if they continue cathering to the Cobattants theyre going to have to compete with WoW on equal terms (combat system andquestsystems and more)and I dont think SWG could win that battle
Swalex1100 wrote:
I'll tell you why I think this has happened....
Make no bones about it boys and gals, this is all about money. Not in game money, but REAL money. I shall explain...
Firstly look at the situation. People are leaving for WoW, EQ2 etc. Now if we were to look at the types of people leaving (and I'm 100% sure that SOE have) we would probably find that higest proportion of them are the Combat players. I've reached this conclusion from the experience of seeing my own combat friends leave, and having played WoW I can honestly say the crafting system is not fit to hold a candle to SWG. This means that crafters are far less likely to up sticks and go and also means that SOE is losing a proportion of it's combat player base to WoW. As a result they're losing all these subscription fees and they've decided to pander to the type of player who is prone to leaving in a bid to stem the tide.
Now the main gripe about SWG is that it takes so long to get anything worthwhile done. To hunt, you need buffs, armour, weapons and you need to travel. People have complained that they can spend an hour getting ready before they've even hit their first Quenker. Now look at the recent changes:
Doc Buffs speeded up
Entertainer Buffs speeded up
Incap Time reduced
Shuttle Times reduced.
I think it would be a fair assumption to say that SOE have taken on board this critisism and done something about it. The vendor change was taking it one step further in that people didn't want to spend ages running around trying to buy equipment, looking at empty vendors etc.
Understanding that these are the reasons behind this (and I may be wrong, but I don't think so) what SOE are effectively doing is putting the Combat Player Base (Who were, by enlarge, for the change) ahead of the crafting player base (who were mostly against it) because they're the ones who are in danger of leaving.
Secondly if we look at the way the change was introduced, we see that when it was first put forward there (compete with buy and delivery options) was a huge outcry from the crafting and merchant community for the following reasons:
1) It made it pointless to have a mall.
2) It made it pointless to have more than one vendor.
3) It was another nail in the coffin for player cities.
4) It would ruin the game for those of us who enjoyed competing for business on grounds other than price.
5) It would lead to undercutting.
6) It would make it harder for a new crafter to get established in the market.
7) It made the entire merchant profession worthless.
So what SOE did then was effectively say:
"OK! We've take your views on board and we'll go back to the drawing board, make some changes and open it up for discussion"
Yay! Reasoned and constructive arguement for TEh wiN! Or so we thought. What they actually meant was this:
"lol @ teh Crafterz! We'llstick vendor search-lite on TC without actually opening it up for any discussion at all! ROFL!"
BUT! They stuck it on TC with one VERY important ommission: Price.
"I've got a better idea! Why don't we put it out on TC WITHOUT price attached? That way it may keep the crafterz a little happier! Even if they're not happy, they're not the ones leaving for WoW are they? VenD0r SeaRCh FoR TeH WiN!!!oneoneone!!eleventy!!one"
We thought "OK so they didn't open it up for disucssion, but without the price attached it's not as bad. I can live with this"
But alas, they put out a different version in live!
"Either because we're too stupid to put out the version of thepatch that was actually tested, or because we're sneaky and wanted to get our changes into live without the outcry from the crafterz, we've gone live with price attached."
We said. Oh. That wasn't the version that was tested. But it's in live now. Guess there's not an awful lot we can do.
Well I for one am pretty angry about the whole situation. Changes nonwithstanding, I feel like I'm coming a distant third behind Jedi and Combat.
I'm not saying I'm going to leave but if things keep going the way they are, a lot of the enjoyment is going to get sucked out of the game for me.
Phaelyn
Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:49 am
#55
Bethya wrote:
Can I just put my Ranger hat on for a second to try and encourage those who are deeply upset.
The patch before this one saw a major change to the harvesting dynamics in SWG. Spot the similarities here:
1. SWG came to the ranger forum and said we are making these changes, let's talk.
2. We talked... alot
3. SWG ignored our talk and put something on TC that sucked the big one
4. We talked... alot (and got together some concrete data via the TC on the problems and reported it in via our corr)
5. SWG (mostly) ignored our talk and put something on live that made one or two changes but left it with one particularly bad anomaly for Master Rangers.
6. They announced the patch and Rangers flooded the board where the announcement had been made with comments on that patch saying how rubbish it was and pointing out yet again the concrete data we had gathered and the problems with their work.
Then, this is the big difference - Gordon Walton read the comments and initiated a change that saw Master Ranger's abilities in harvesting jump drastically and (basically) resolve the tension.
So what can the merchants learn? Well, firstly, I think do not be downcast that SWG never listen. As you can see from my example, mostly they didn't listen and yes it went live with major problems BUT it did change and I would encourage you not to see this situation for yourselves as utter defeat but to do something about it. The Rangers did and got a result. No good just sitting there moaning and accepting defeat.
It worked for Rangers, I will agree.
It did NOT work for CH and Smuggler, whoto this very day remain just as nerfed as they have ever been.
What it comes down to is the "vision" SOE has for SWG in the coming months. In a lot of venues, two of the big concerns have been the Time it takes to play the game, and the economy of the game. With this system change, SOE feels they have saved the "majority" of players Time (Because they no longer have to planet and city hop) and have handled the Economy (By creating a method to essentially "encourage" price "normalization")
We can shout from the mountain tops on this - But we won't have many supporters EXCEPT other Merchants. Rangers had a LOT of support, because the changes affected not only THEM, but trickled down to other player types. The changes we have to the system are widely embraced by anyone who is not a merchant.
Crimsonsplat
Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:17 pm
#56
Bethya wrote:
Can I just put my Ranger hat on for a second to try and encourage those who are deeply upset.
(snip)
So what can the merchants learn? Well, firstly, I think do not be downcast that SWG never listen. As you can see from my example, mostly they didn't listen and yes it went live with major problems BUT it did change and I would encourage you not to see this situation for yourselves as utter defeat but to do something about it. The Rangers did and got a result. No good just sitting there moaning and accepting defeat.
Bethya, I saw tha analysis done by the playersand it was steller. I credit it with Rangers doing as well out of the situation as they did. The problem is, it WON'T work for us. The game economy is heavily dependant on player decisions / motivations, and _no one_ has a firm grip on what decisions are being made and why. The only people who can even come close to collecting enough data is Sony, and they could only collect the most basic info without overloading the system.
If I buy cheap goods on Rori, is it because I happened to be on Rori, or because they were so much cheaper, it was worth the time/cost to go there? And will I do it again? Did I know that vendor was there before, or did I find them in the Bazaar? Will I make the same kind of purchasing decisions for furniture as for Vasarian Bandy?
As a crafter, will I lower my prices across the board to compete? Or find a niche and serve it?Are my vendors in a mall or shop? If my sales drop, is it because I haven't made anything in a while, because my stuff sucks, or because someone is undercutting me and the bazaar search made it easy to find them?
Too much data and too much "player decision." This means that we players cannot track enough information toprovide more than anecdotal evidence; and Sony can't collect and analyze enough data to understand whats going on--because they need to be in the minds of our customers. All they can do is see the broadest of trends.It will take several weeksforthem to become evident(and we assumethat they've collected data already to form a baseline, which I doubt). By the time they collect enough data,see what's changed, analyze the underlying patterns tofigure out why,decide on a course of action, code it, implement it, and then start the whole process over again, it's going to be too late for many crafters.
For all the prophecies of doom and gloom, the truth is, we don't know whats going to happen. Neither does Sony. And that's the only reason I let myself be talked into remaining one more month. Personally, my opinion is "nothing good for the majority of the crafters" but we will see.
Crimsonsplat
Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:08 pm
#57
Not a bad idea. It would have to be short and in game, or they won't bother, though.
Questions we should put in....
1. How did you first find my shop?
a. word of mouth
b. just passing by and stopped in
c. I shopped here before
d. Off the galaxy wide vendor list.
e. From the planetary map.
f. Same guild, or player city, orI know you from someplace.
g. Spamming in auction channel, cnet, barker droid, etc.
2. Will you shop at my store/mall again?
a. yes
b. Depends (briefly describe what/why)
c. No
3. Did you see a cheaper price forthe same type of item,either before or after purchasing from me?
a. yes (see question 4)
b. No
4. If you saw a better price but bought (or will buy) from me even though I'm not the cheapest, why?
a.Your shop is better located for me.
b.Your merchandise quality is better.
c. One stop shopping -- several vendors nearby allow me to get my shopping done quicker.
d. Intangibles (shop decoration, unique item names, vendor barking, etc.)
5. Which of the following statements appliesto you: (may select more than one--explain any contradictions)
a. I try tobuy the cheapest stuff, even if I have to spenda bit of time traveling overland for it.But no ships/shuttles, that's money.
b. I dont' care if I have to travel by ship, shuttle, and swoop, if it's cheaper that way, it's worth it.
c. I hate traveling, taking ships, swoops, and shuttles just to go buy something--I'd rather buy locally.
d. Quality is job #1 and I'm willing to pay for it.
e. If I see someone with a well-decorated shop, that adds to my enjoyement--I'd rather buy from them, even if it's a bit more expensive.
f. I can't stand using that stupid bazaar interface for long, I just take thereasonable & near vendor I come to.
g. I try to balance quality, price, and travel time/cost to the vendor.
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Think this might work, or is it too big?
bluejanus
Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:55 pm
#58
I'm currently doing an informal survey of people who buy things from my shop after the change. So far for architect items, people either are repeat buyers or got it via word of mouth or saved the wp via the global advertisement map. For resources items, people used the galaxy vendor search. That's not all-inclusive of course, I've had a few arch and resource sales from people in the other categories.
ipeacefrog
Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:40 am
#59
All I know is that my vendor sales have dropped dramatically since the change.
I have S'Mart vendorson Scylla @ Imperial Outpost onDantooine, Bestine & Helios on Tatooine & STC on Naboo
Message Edited by ipeacefrog on 03-30-2005 03:41 AM
Summerflame
Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:10 pm
#61
mine have gone up on loot items and are practically the same on weapons, thou I sell out of somethings a bit faster than before /could probably sell more of that if I could keep up with demand...
I still dont like the system for a lot of reasons...my 2 major complaints isthe following
1)It is awefully inpersonal, people dont know bout me.. they only know about a WP in their datapad. Before people would tell me theyve heard about me trhu their friends or they had bourght a used weapon of mine of the bazaar and found me when they needed it replaced... Now I see a lot of new costumers, but most of them jsut step in and step out again. I like being recognised as a creator of fine stuff. This seems to diminish this (and sweep aside the work ive put into getting wellknown at the same time)
2) I feel like Im using 63 skillpoints for storage abilities now... it annoys me deeply and if it wasnt because I need all that space to keep resources and loot components just slightly organised I would drop to 0-0-0-4 merchant without giving it another thourght.
clunky bazaar interface, the fact that noone knows how to get listed on the first page and repeated auctions + items being listed with wrong names are other concerns, but the above 2 are the reasons Im mainly against the GVS
ipeacefrog
Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:50 pm
#62
I sell weapons (sliced and unsliced)& assoc. items, power, loot &critters.
Haven't gotten into armor & spices yet. Pretty much waiting on the revamp for that.
I was doing a few million a week, at last check I've done about 700k since the new vendor thing.
Do you guys have vendors in one spot or spread out? I have S'Mart vendorson Scylla @ Imperial Outpost onDantooine, Bestine & Helios on Tatooine & STC on Naboo.
I spent about 1/2 hour at a bazzar today and found it rather messed up. It listed about 1,300 items but when you advanced it to the next set it only advanced 100 items. So I went from item 1 - ~1300 to item101 - ~1400. That's rather messed up. Talk about a pain.
I went so far as to advance forward 1000 items and almost nothing changed.
It seems odd to me that sales are affected one way or the other with the bazzar so messed up.
bluejanus
Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:47 am
#63
Excellent post, Dallia. In the furor of the search being in live, I totally forgot that it was on TC without pricing.
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