Merchant Archive
Thread: Why Should People Who Don't Have Merchant Loose Their Venders, A Valid Arguement Why They Shouldn't
MaDuece wrote:
Wire3k wrote:
Worked for me and pretty much everyone else - and in case you are late to these forums - I HAVE a master merchant as well as some merchant on my 3rd toon - but nice try. Not sure what the reference to Ebay is all about never bought or sold anything there, but I have had an extremely successful and appreciated store since release.
Look, obviously you're a tailor, I realize that an item limit will hit that profession the hardest. I respect the fact that you are taking a position that would preserve that wide assortment of choices that you have on your vendor. However, your assumption that its just dandy with everyone else the way things are is out of touch with the rest of the merchant community. If this was not a fact, then you wouldn't have the multitude of merchants that come to this forum and voice their opinion that a limit of SOME TYPE would help improve and protect their profession and business.
As far as others coming in to fill in niches - ayup, that does happen - but there is such a thing as critical mass in MMOs - lose it and you are in trouble - deep, deep trouble.
Vendors with 20 assorted crystals for 50k each and 20 travel packs for 99,999,999 ceditseachare hardly a major contribution to the game economy. Like I aleady stated, I know of several of these off the top of my head. The extinction of these vendors will no more negatively impact the economy than the disappearance of the empty vendors.
Apparently you haven't seen all the posts from well established longtime crafters that have said they have either already cancelled - or their fingers are hovering over the button. Normally - you can take the average player's threat to quit with a grain of salt - the exception to that is the crafting community. That's true of any MMO I've ever played (several over many years). Crafters will adapt as best they can - as long as they can, until you make it counterproductive for them or they feel they aren't contributing any longer.
A vendor item limit that is too low is the biggest concern of most crafter/merchants. The only exception to this rule are tailors. But sorry, there really is no way to accommodate a profession that can make 64,000 possible color combinations of the same item. Thats not going to happen. A vendor limit that will still allow the MAJORITY of crafting professions to manage their own stores will keep the MAJORITY of the crafters happy.
Requiring that you have the appropriate skills to keep those vendors going is most certainly NOT counterproductive. It will discourage the vendors that I described above. When a player pulls up the planetary map looking for a vendor, maybe they can actually find what they need if the operator of that vendor is required to have the appropriate skills.
But you really need to get your complaints straight.
I did. Maybe you need "Hooked on Phonics".
Try reading it again. Or are you one of those people that aren't really listening to another person's point of view while they speak but instead are thinking about what should come out of your mouth next?
If all these poachers you are so sure are spoiling your fun aren't 'serious' - they can't possibly produce enough - or have enough steady clientele to impact any serious business. There are aspects to crafting/merchant that go far beyond game mechanics
I never accused them of "spoiling any of my fun". A system that allows one set of characters to do one thing but restricts another set of characters from doing the same thing is an unbalanced system. A combat-centric player can get merchant skills and drop it but retain its abilities and benefits vs a crafter that gets combat skills but loses those benefits when he/she drops those skills.
THATS an imbalance. TH has said so (someone else has provided the quote and link to prove this). Doc has said so (if you have kept up you would know this but if you insist I will provide the quote and link for this as well). Whether or not you think that their statements are valid or not is another issue entirely. If you think you can do better, then apply for the job.
I guess I've always been far too busy keeping my operation running smoothly to have the time or inclination to be sticking my nose in my neighbor's business.
You don't go out and check out your competition? You don't look atother people'svendors? Isn't this part of the "would be personal and business skills" you profess that you have?
Like everyone else, occasionally I have to shop for things that I can't make or acquire myself. I become one of those customers that is sick and tired of initializing a vendor only to end up staring at someone's pitiful inventory and "basement contents".
The thing that's always attracted me to the crafting game is it isn't a win/lose competition like everything else. For any merchant to be effective and successful - you have to find the niches that produce win/win.
And even with a vendor item limit those that truely enjoy it will continue to do so. Those that only had a vendor because they could exploit the system for a few extra credits can go bye-bye.
You CANNOT be successful if others lose, everyone is a potential customer.
I most certainly can. People lose everyday. Business goes on. Life goes on.
There will always be customers as long as there are those that don't want to be crafter/merchants.
As a tailor - especially a bio-tailor, yeah, any types of limits are likely to put me clean out of business. Tailors are far from the only ones in this position however, both from the depth of range of goods available - and from color selection.
Do I care if people are selling crystals? Nope - don't need'em, don't want'em - can't use'em, never will. Will this stop storage - NO IT WON'T. Empty vendors are being addressed on the map and in person, I've not seen anyone object to that one. MOST EMPTY VENDORS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH WHO DOES AND DOESN'T HAVE THE SKILL. Setting your leg doesn't do any good - if it's your arm that's broken.
People screaming are due to the fact that they THINK this will help. I've had successful shops over many years. I've yet to ever have an unsuccessful one - period. No vendors in some, never a merchant class in any - guess what - same complaints by folks that can't figure out what they are doing wrong, or why they don't have more business - it's a red herring. Unfortunately it's a common human trait to blame a convienent target rather than looking at ones own possible problems.
I know how much WORK it is to keep a hightraffic store properly stocked and running - and yeah, those that think it will be a hoot will burn out quickly and run away screaming like a little girl once they get all this magical traffic they only think they want. If they truly wanted that, they'd already have that business - anyone can if they apply themselves.
No, I don't think merchant was logical as a profession - it's splitting natural activities that should reasonably be expected to go together. If it's kept - I recommended a LOT of changes that would give the profession teeth and make it worthwhile having in it's own right, but just having a vendor wasn't part of it - it was all tools that would give merchants an edge on bringing people in - not on just being able to distribute goods. Believe me - if the dev's looked at ongoing balance and thought this was as hairy and horrible as some merchants in these forums - the system that worked for over a year wouldn't have - and even now it's not because of YOUR concerns is it getting tackled - it happens to fall into something THEY are concerned about, which has nothing to do with YOUR concern about a class. Merchant will STILL suck as only a skillpoint sink, which is the original problem - and do you think they are going to go to the trouble and expense of developing any of those tools it so desperately needs to validate it as a class?
I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. This isn't us - against themamong players. My customers make money - they have more to spend, that's called enlightened selfinterest. My customers have more to fill up their playing time in things they enjoy, that makes for more happy players - and therefore more potential customers - that's a win/win. Ultimately it's the customer that decides on value of product, location, help - that's exactly as it should be.
That's exactly what I tried to warn folks about months ago. Even though 110 probably isn't the final number - merchants will have a far harder time with this than the crafter/merchant. All those grand dreams of buying in bulk and reselling - I don't think folks have really thought this out, and they really need to be careful in what they wish for.
BoberFett wrote:
Just a question. How in the world is a pure merchant going to stock goods from multiple crafters with a 110 item limit per vendor?
Wire3k wrote:That's exactly what I tried to warn folks about months ago. Even though 110 probably isn't the final number - merchants will have a far harder time with this than the crafter/merchant. All those grand dreams of buying in bulk and reselling - I don't think folks have really thought this out, and they really need to be careful in what they wish for.
BoberFett wrote:Just a question. How in the world is a pure merchant going to stock goods from multiple crafters with a 110 item limit per vendor?
No one in this forum wished for any limits and you know it. They were forced on us against our wishes and agianst my lobbying to prevent them for months. What was wished for and accomplished was limiting the use of vendors to those people who actually have the skill to manage them. The two are not connected and never were.
The finial limit won't be 110 per vendor of that much I can assure you. What it will be I don't know yet.
Wire3k wrote:
Blah Blah Blah
Wire3k wrote:
......disrupting distribution models that HAVE worked.
Worked for YOU. Worked for those that don't want to expend and commit the skill point requirements. Whats the matter? Is this cutting into your Ebay business?
I've been posting for months what merchants need to make them viable as a WANTED class
You've been posting? What about all the other merchants that have been posting? This is what they said that THEY have needed.
- but you are making the mistake of thinking any of these changes are for us - the players,
They sound good to me. They sound like what merchants have been asking for for quite awhile.
they aren't. They are kneejerk reactions by the devs to what they think THEIR problems are, what players want or need to function factors very little into the equation. While you are hopping up and down feeling all vindicated remember this isn't for you - it's because they think they can take another bite out of their poorly designed DB systems that they either think they can't - or simply don't want to invest the time into fixing.
Does Blizzard pay you to post this stuff?
Selling one's goods is as integral to the crafting process as looting is to someone out killing stuff. If you think it was ever meant to be a profession along the lines of others you are sadly mistaken - it was an attempt to limit player's activities thru a skillpoint sink.
It IS a profession. Its been one since launch. Get over it.
Most very successful crafters gracefully sidestep this limitation with multiple accounts.
Its a free country. They can do whateverthey like with theirmoney.
So - that theory goes out the window. Those that are inclined to do that - already have, those that this will impact the most more than likely are not able or willing to have multiple accounts - it will likely drive them clean out of the game. Item limits that are unacceptable - or are shown to be unacceptable because it turns the joy of running a shop into drudgery will drive out far more - folks with those multiple accounts.
Conjecture. You have no proof of this as a widespread problem. Link from a credible source? Preferably from someone getting paid to keep up with this stuff?
Goods unavailable or taking hours and hours to find - this hits Joe Average "I just wanna blow things up" right where he lives and he will soon follow.
That problem exists already. There are 1000s of empty vendors across all servers.
So, tell me again - how is this all a good thing?
It weeds out those that aren't commited to being a crafter and/or merchant to go do something else (or quit). In which case, the majority of the vendors left standing will more than likely be fully stocked.
As for your pissing and moaning about something that hasn't even happened yet? PREMEDITATED SNIVELING. THATS not a good thing.
Oh yeah, empty worlds will indeed shrink the DB down to managable levels - unfortunately at that point there is no reason for it to exist in the first place.
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Repent!
When it does I'm sure you'll be here telling us where we should go play next.
Message Edited by MaDuece on 08-16-2004 12:31 AM
Barris wrote:
For over a year, the venders whos owners don't have merchant situation has been going on. This system successfully worked for how long now, why try to fix it?
It was only successfull if the majority of vendor owners certed or not actually kept stock in them. We had a huge massive overload of empty vendors across the servers causing wasted time on the part of the shopper and lag. Also, those vendors whos owners quit that game still remained up. This was especially hard on one stop shops who had to redeed a structure to get rid of the pest. The last thing though is that the devs feel that they coded in a bug and wish to correct it. They have stated that it was never intended that a person have vendors to use if they did not possess the Merchant profession of artisan biz 3.
The non merchants were happy, the ones who did have merchant never complained, as it never really affected them.
I believe the Merchant Community was very active in trying to get the vendor cert corrected.
So, why fix it.It wasn't a game breaking bug and it never caused real issues for anyone.
Youre correct it was not game breaking, it was economy breaking. It opened the doors for people to hologrind crafting professions and sell thier sub quality goods on the open market for cheap thereby destroying a strong game economy.
Granted some of you view this as an 'exploit.' I have justified why it is only a lack of coding, and not an exploit (giving a player advantage over another player, since anyone could do this).
I believe that the Devs have called this an exploit.
Aside from that, why should it be fixed. It didn't affect any one person here who was merchant.
I answered this question above when you asked the very same thing
It was great for anyone who was PvE or PvP,that we could place venders and not have to gimp our templates to keep them up.
I agree it was a very posh set-up. However if you believe that Merchant is a gimp profession then perhaps you do not deserve the benefits of one. Btw I mastered Pistoleer, If I drop it I should keep my cert for my uber genosioan. It doesnt make sense that my toon "forgets" how to use one. I paid my dues I deserve it. I want to have a BE profession to go with my tailor template and I do not want to gimp my template with an actual combat class.
It was great for crafters, it allowed them a greater variety of what they could do with their skill points.
A very nice posh set up as well. But unlike combat classes who must gimp thier templates to have vendors, most crafters are already gimped and accept more gimpage for vendors as long as the item limits are reasonable.
So why fix it. No flames, as they just come from a lack of better arguements. Just opinions, thoughts, and justifications is whatI ask for.
It's actually not up to you to decide what needs "fixing". No one actually has to justify anything to you. The nerf bat is coming I suggest that you run for cover.
BoberFett wrote:
Barris wrote:
So, instead of being able to have fun with a combat template, I had to surrender it to be merchant gimped inorder to keep my shop open, which sucks. You who are crafter/merchants don't have any use for the skill points that merchant actually eats up. PvE people do. The basic 24 skill points it takes to get just management 3 eats up a very large amount of needed skill points for those who are combat professions.
My skill points are worth less than yours? You are a self-important little turd. I pay $15 a month for 250 skill points just like you. Being a master weaponsmith and having enough merchant to run a galaxy wide weapon business doesn't leave me with a whole lot of skill points.
Would I like to be a master combat profession? I sure would, so I wouldn't have to pay the exorbitant prices that scumbag combat types like yourself gouge us crafters with.I'm a smuggler and have some OK combat skills. Do I wish I could master pistoleer? I sure do. But after weighing my options I chose to run a shop first, and do combat second. The difference is that you want to be combat character first, and run a shop first. You want everything.
Herein lies the issue. Many of those people who maintain vendors without the requisite skills see this as a right that should continue, instead of a happy glitch that benefits themfor a time until it is fixed.
The ever-repeated arguments of "it doesn't hurt the game" are a crock, and even if they were true, they would be irrelevant. The issue here is one of principle. As others have stated before, merchant is the ONLY profession where you continue to enjoy the benefits of the skills after the skills have been dropped. This is simply wrong, and the only argument I need to support that statement is that THE DEVS HAVE SAID SO. There is no reason that you, gong-show boy, should be able to keep your vendors for free (skill-point wise)while I continue to allocate skill points to keep mine. And don't tell me to drop my skills, that's not how the game is supposed to work, and you know it. And if you didn't know it before, you sure know it now. Deal with it.
/rant off
Of course, the real issue here is that Merchant is a gimped class. The real solution involves a much more robust system that allows for the rental of a vendor from an established merchant. This is not difficult. Allow merchants to give admin rights on a vendor, and to set a percentage value that determines how much each party gets paid. The renting party has full access to list and de-list items, and when a sale is made, the money goes directly to the renter, minus the percentage set by the owner. All other abilities that the merchant has (as far as advertising, dressing, ad barking, etc..) would be available to the renter, so it would pay to seek out a more experienced merchant.
The only thing that bothers me about the proposed vendor fix is the talk of a prohibitively low item limit. I don't believe that it should be unlimited, but 80 or 100 seems too low to me.
BountyBlunter wrote:
Crimsonsplat wrote:
THANK YOU WIRE!!
You put into clear and coherent words, the single best argument I have seen to date, in favor of my position: the merchant profession is a useless waste of points and should be removed from the game. Give the abilities to all crafting classes, and a lesser form of them to the "semi" crafters.
Question : If merchant is useless , why do you want the skills in merchant rolled out into your own professions ?.. If it were the case and merchant were useless then it should be removed from the game entirely and no skills should be passed on to the crafting professions at all as the crafting professions constantly state they are useless.. Sound logic I think..
Message Edited by BountyBlunter on 08-16-2004 04:25 PM
Bounty, you'r "sound logic" is a straw man fallacy. I didn't say it was a useless profession, I said it was a useless waste of points.
The abilities are just fine. It's paying so many points for so little in return that I object to. Again I state, as I have previously, the Merchant gives the least return in game skills/benefit for Skill Points of any profession. It's painfully obvious how much they had to dilute the abilities to fit 18 boxes. Since the "classic merchant" does not exist in SWG except as an anomaly orserving personal friends, the profession is little more than an adjunct to a crafting profession.
Want proof? Fine. I'll post a new thread with a question, and hopefully we will get answers, not flames.
In the future, please argueagainst my statements, not some distortion of them.
Barris wrote:
Sad, just a bunch of pissy merchants defending this profession (for what ever reason) and can't back it up. They say what they think, but no reasoning.
The skill is PLACING. Not using. Plain and simple. We had to get the xp and do all the crap the current merchants had to inorder to have these venders, but we wanted to do something more with our template. So, tell me, how is this wrong? We still had to get the xp, and when we give merchant up, give up the skill to place new ones or do any of the goodies that goes with it.
xKhaziCx wrote:
Now this statement here is just wrong. Lets sit back and THINK about it Barris.Take a step aside of YOUR toon, and think of a logical reason that this nerf should go through.
1) If I was an armorsmith, and went all the way to master, but then dropped it to be an "uber PvP l33t d00d" shouldnt I still be able to craft armor? 80% composite even?
You would surrender the skill to craft it, like I surrendered the skill to place it. Very different.
2) you argue that the skill is PLACING, I argue that the skill is OWNING! IF it wasnt for you getting the xp in the first place, would never be able to OWN it. Placing is just the terminology used in the game, the meanings however are different.
If the skill was owning, (which, if you read it, it's not), then this wouldn't have been possible. However the skill was just placing, which is why this was possible. Owning falls into the catagory of managing it, which doesn't take any skills to do.
3) Merchant is the only class that you can still get benifits from it, after you drop the skills. For god sake man think about it!
Creature Handler?
Am I getting through to you? Are you open minded enough to listen to reason? Common sense here should prevail.
I understand what you are saying, but it's simply not the game mechanics. Having venders up after dropping the skill is possible due to a lack of programming. Doing away with this however would be like having ex CH's delete their pets they can't control after they surrender it.