Merchant Archive

Thread: Merchant Item Limits Focus Thread: Please try to be constructive and rational (Pt 2)

Dharia
Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:44 am
#53



Repost of top portion of post, damn glitch...




90% of my game time revolves around the crafting system, my harvesters and my shops...
What is the point of being a Master Tailor if I can't sell what I make?



Right now I live in a player city where I run 14 vendorsby having the merchant skill on 3 different accounts. Since the town started I have run almost all of the businesses in town so that other players wouldn't have to give up their skills to sell items... isn't that what a Merchant is supposed to do?


With the new vendor item caps, I would no long be able to runthe 3 mostly decorative vendorsin the Burnin' Hookah Cantina to resell Food, Drinks, and Spices for the local residence... which means I might as well take the building down since there would no longer be a reason for anyone to goin there. After all entertainers and doctors can dance/heal/buff in any public player owned building in the city. Sorry Mayor.

And poor 'Hilda in the Jolly Roger Cantinawould get the Axe, no room for a vendor that sells cheep drinks for Role-Play purposes...

And say good bye to the Black Market, no room for a Pawn Shop merchant to resell furniture, structures, harvests, and decorative items... No room for that shifty Black Market Dealer that sells cheep items for new players... No room for the Bio-Engineering vendor, no tailors and chefs left to buy thetissues anyways... Might as well take that tent down since it's empty now... Sorry Mayor

Now that I've freed upsome vendors, I don't have a building big enough to place them all in... All my lots are taken up by Factories, Harvesters, and Small Storage Houses for my supplies (since for some unknown reason a small house can hold 150 items... but a large taking up 6 lots only holds 250... I'm still trying to figure out the logic behind that one)...Hmm... Take down the Clothier'sTent since it can't hold all 6 or more vendors... or make people run to anywhere from two tosix different buildings just to look at the 110 pieces of clothing.... oh scratch that, I can't even stock 110 items because I don't have to skill points for Master Merchant without dropping almost all of Master Dancer...

Drop Master Dancer.... I didn't want to have fun in this game anyways...

Now send customers to 2 to 6 different buildings to admire the 2 of each style clothes I can make, one in black, one in white....

With the Merchant Item limits, this game stops being fun and turns into a full time job that I *pay* to maintain...

Now doesn't that seem a little silly?

speardancer
Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:47 am
#54

My personal suggestion for new limits here...

bus 3 - 1 vendor, 50 items per (50 total)
Nov Merch - 2 vendors, 75 items per (150 total)
Management 1 - 3 vendors, 125 items per (375 total)
Management 2 - 4 vendors, 200 items per (800 total)
Management 3 - 5 vendors, 300 items per (1500 total)
Management 4 - 6 vendors, 400 items per (2400 total)
Master merch - 6 vendors, 600 items per (3600 total)

These limits keep the business 3 dabblers down, allows the crafters who have some merchant skills to operate, and gives a big bonus to those who master ther merchant class and wish to truely operate as a merchant, buying and reselling goods.

These are the limits I could live with. I would certainly support higher limits as well.



Speardancer Master Artisian, Shipwright and 12pt Armorsmith *cancelation pending*
Garlyn, Master Tailor and 11pt Chef *Canceled, last day Apr. 24th*
Motas, Master Scout and Carbineer *Canceled, last day June 16th
*Waited 1 year for a combat fix, and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt*
BULLROACH
Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:53 am
#55


DocSavag wrote:
I am researching what happened to the other thread. Please post your suggestions and counter proposals to the item limits here.

Please try to keep the flame to a minimum. I understand you are angry but try to remained focused on the goal which is to prevent the item limits from going into production at a level that will not allow us to do business in an efficient and reasonable manner.






I find this announcement disturbing and discouraging and if implemented in the described manner without modification would be enough for me to cancel my extra account. As a Master Merchant I have four vendors that I make sales from. I have Heaven-N-Earth Vehicles, Let Me Heal You, Tools-N-Things, and Hudson’s Fine Fashions. Their names are self-explanatory but why I am in disagreement with the current proposed limit is how I use the “Let Me Heal You” and “Tools-N-Things” vendors. I supply low cost Stim-A’s and Wound kits in crates of fifty for 2k per crate. On “Let Me Heal You”. I have around five hundred crates up for sale. This particular vendor gets incredible repeat business as you could imagine. On “Tools-N-Things” it is similar but with armor repair kits, melee and ranged power ups, and other like items. I pride my shop on having great products at fair prices and on “always” being stocked. When I read threads about ghost vendors and complaints about paying entrance fees only to find a vendor nothing in it related to its advertised name I “know” it is not about my shop and me. My customers always know that I will be stocked and that their suggestions for product options and availability are listened to seriously. It was suggestions from my customers that led me to use the current system I am using today. The current proposed limit would make it difficult for me to supply my customer’s needs in the way they want to be served. I want that limit to be increased to at the very least one thousand five hundred for Master Merchant. This would make it less “offensive” and a “burden”. It all comes down to a simple matter of convenience for both me and my customers. If you wanted to make a positive impact on the Merchant profession you could do us a favor and increase the operations expense benefit from 20% at Master to 35%. This profession is the only one where at Master achievement you get bumkus! That should be addressed long before you considered this proposed ill advised venture!




The above was my original post. If you want to quote your original post you can just click your name and then use the link to "Find all post by this person" and cut and past it to this one. I admit I was “Hot” about this issue when I first found out about it. I have had a bit to cool off a tad…only a tad and I have a post that is a little more constructive and less angry. These totals I have come up with are per vendor and “not” across the number of vendors you have initialized.

Artisan

Novice Vendor Item Modifier +0
Business I Vendor Item Modifier +0
Business II Vendor Item Modifier +0
Business III Vendor Item Modifier +100
Business IV Vendor Item Modifier +25
Master Vendor Item Modifier +25

Merchant

Novice Vendor Item Modifier +50
Management I Vendor Item Modifier +40
Management II Vendor Item Modifier +160
Management III Vendor Item Modifier +180
Management IV Vendor Item Modifier +230
Master Vendor Item Modifier +200
Vendors +1


Efficiency I No change
Efficiency II No change
Efficiency III No change
Efficiency IV Reduced Maintenance Fees –20%
Master Reduced Maintenance Fees –15%

Message Edited by BULLROACH on 08-10-2004 12:01 PM



"See what is not what appears to be."
Jordan_Karr
Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:55 am
#56






My personal suggestion for new limits here...

bus 3 - 1 vendor, 50 items per (50 total)
Nov Merch - 2 vendors, 75 items per (150 total)
Management 1 - 3 vendors, 125 items per (375 total)
Management 2 - 4 vendors, 200 items per (800 total)
Management 3 - 5 vendors, 300 items per (1500 total)
Management 4 - 6 vendors, 400 items per (2400 total)
Master merch - 6 vendors, 600 items per (3600 total)

These limits keep the business 3 dabblers down, allows the crafters who have some merchant skills to operate, and gives a big bonus to those who master ther merchant class and wish to truely operate as a merchant, buying and reselling goods.

These are the limits I could live with. I would certainly support higher limits as well.




Okthis is thefirst Cap limit suggestion that I could really deal with... it gives a comfortable middle range, and is expansive enought that it works for those who dont want all of merchant and it works for those who do...


Only Change I would do is add + 50 Items to business 4 in artisan, as it stands That would provide people with box vendors 100 Item capacity... And I would adjust the Management 4 to 2500 Items total, and Master to 4000 Items total... Just to make it a bit more pleasing to the Master Merchants... They are then a full 1500 items higher than a Non Master... where the other one they are only 1200 Higher than a non master...

But either way I could live with those limits...

Message Edited by Jordan_Karr on 08-10-2004 11:56 AM



Character Name: Chalvooka WOOKIEE FROM DAY ONE!! still a wookiee even after a small break from SWG!!! A Wookiee from before wookiee armors and ROTW or RTOS!!!!
Kharn_JB
Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:57 am
#57

At least 4-5 times the proposed amount is the minimum to allow crafters to remain productive.
Reaperss
Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:02 pm
#58






Tanooshman wrote:

If every one suffers the same limits, I can live with it. So there, it's said.


But.


I can't imagine what is triggering this change. Last I heard there were 1 million SWG players - spread over 25 or so Galaxies. Even assuming 100k players per server, with 10k items EACH - that's only 1gig items in the database. I'm unaware of any modern Commercial grade Db for which that is a daunting number. If you had to allocate 10k of storage FOR EACH ITEM, that's still only 10 terabytes. I'd be impressed if we were talking about my brother's home setup - but for a SONY game of this stature I fail to see any major challenges before 100 times the number of players.


If it's a gameplay issue, there's some room for argument. An artisan with Level 3 business skillprobably doesn't need, and maybe shouldn't have unlimited vendor storage capacity. But a Master Merchant? I can't fathom the reason for a limit on Master Mechants - therefore I can't elucidate an alternative.


But it's clear if all BUT Master Merchant had limits, the DB issue would evaporate, regardless of the limits.


I have to comment that SOE has not demonstrated an award-winning capacity for seeing the consequences of its changes (to date). Just as the Holocrons had an unintended consequence.


The simple FACT: The players WILL HAVE THEIR STUFF!!!! If you take away this avenue - there will be a backlash. It may very well be less convenient!





We have no where near 1 million players. If you don't know how much space each item takes p, how do you know the size of the DB. The client side of the game is about 2 gigs. No way the DB is 1 gig.







Ugo Deathbringer
-X Master Droid Engineer, X Master Merchant, X Master Artisan,
Don't hate da playa or da game, hate the Devs
Warn you we did, listen you did not, now screwed we all are
lich707
Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:04 pm
#59

I propose that if we do not receive input from any dev about this that we all boycott the game. This nerf is trying to do 2 very greedy things if I may so say my self. Sorry if that was a bit fiery.

1 - Save database space on the game so they can pay less money to run the game
2 - Force people to purchase multiple accounts

This is not right at all. This nerf is completely geared toward making SOE more money.
This is not what a game is supposed to be about. Ever. The heart and soul have left SWG, I fear.
And I hope they delete this post, so they can pretend they're not trying to get more of your money.
I don't know about you, but I want the heart and soul in my game.



˜llich - Intrepid
Aeja
Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:09 pm
#60

Well 300-500 limit per vendorwould be ok to me, but doing it B4 they cleared out the empty vendors and the vendors that people have not kept the skill required to use them is crazy, I say do that B4 you impose limits this alone would eliminate 25-50% of the DB issues. How many here have had to litterly search for a vendor that not only had what they wanted but just gotten happy that they finally found a vendor that was stocked at all. I know on FLURY 2 vendors out of 5 are usually empty and the house says left the game. And if the Devs feel they need to impose some sort of limit start large say 700 limit per vendor (and realisicly I have seen only 1 or 2 vendors that high). Also they complain that we are using vendors for storage, well duh Storage has beena issue far longer than any merchant issue (and was deemed an acceptable work around untill the storage issue was reached).


So to recap a workable solution, Do it in steps clear out the empty and cancelled acct. vendors and housing 1st. see if there are still issues. And even if they feel they must make a limit while doing this make it aroung 700 or so. This will give the Devs a hard cap they want and still wont effect 90% of the base. And make the cap go live 2wks after pub 10 release to allow the few merchants the opurtunity to sell off excess stock.


Also as to the people who way this will help the little guy and the little guy dont have a chance. Im a 10pnt AS/WS (Mastered WSat about 3mo and AS 2mo)and I do fantasticly I sell almost as fast as I can make it. So for me at any rate I dont see how this will benifit any one having the limit as low as they are preposing.


DaNumpty
Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:12 pm
#61

Nothing personal against you Doc. But the deleting of 60+ pages of negative remarks regarding this massive nerf speak volumes. Page after page of ideas and thoughts and not one Dev response on the boards about a compromise. At least none that I have read to date. I could swallow hard and live with a 500 item limit per vendor. That seems a reasonable limit for the average and above average merchant and crafter. Five of my six vendors (btwa legitmate Master Merchant) have items well over the proposed limits. As do a number of my guild mates. I see no reason to harvest rare hard to find recources to make quality items only to be severly limited to sell items a bit at a time, with little chance to recoup my expenses and time investment. Empty vendors, gone! a good thing. Maintaining skill points to keep vendors, logical. 110 items per vendor, its harsh, arbitrary and punishes the PAYING customer of SOE products. We pay the price for poor forethought and design. As others have noted, if we are to be so severly restricted, I will cancel my crafting account. It wont be fun, it wont be challenging, it will be a heartburn creator. Im here to enjoy myself. Im not here to be beaten about the head and body with constant nerf bats. And they need to ask themselves what happens to new players who have to search high and low for a speeder and cant find them stocked? Or find the prices so high they cant afford them? They have considered it and then dismissed it. SOE does not respect their paying customers with this type of treatment. And it makes me very sad. More so after defending my playing of this game to friends who have long since left, and are laughing at these changes. Updates should improve the playing experience. This is beyond my understanding. WoW is starting to sound real good at this point.



When I die I want to go like my Grandfather, quiet and peacefully in my sleep. Not like the passengers, screaming and yelling in his car!

Danumptys vendors are located at the City of Wolves Naboo -481 2352 GWIS PA Hall . There you will find Vehicles, Loot, Artisan and Architect Supplies.
Dracass
Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:13 pm
#62

Repostin' a concept:

Manipulation of Crates:
Allow crates to be used as containers. A vendor can support N amount of crates (N = max limit). A player can purchase a given amount of items from the crate without buyin' the whole crate. Fer example, there be a crate of 25 T-21's. A customer wants only 3 T-21's and buys just 3 from the crate. The crate now has 22 T-21's remainin' in the vendor.




Deleted threads...
I feel like Am relivin' the Combat Balance issue once again...



Sign off,
Dracass The'Heartless
Artiman
Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:14 pm
#63

REMOVE THE BAZAAR PRICE CAP OR MAKE IT 1 OR 5 MIL

__________________________


*mouth waters*


Man that is ALL, I repeat ALL, that the newer player could ever need to get going. Just an open market.


LeahlooDallas
Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:28 pm
#64

I am relatively new to SWG, but in the month and a half I have been playing I have fallen in love with the crafting trades. I am a Master Merchant,working on Master Tailor and Master Merchant, and even started a second account so that I could go BE and enhance my own Tailoring. I have 5 Vendors, all with with different aspects of my handiwork for sale. UNlike a lot of people I see, I dont "grind" thru the crafting lvls.. I make items and I sell them for exp. I have well over 1000 on my vendors right now. What am I to do with my surplus if this goes live? Am I simply to waste all of my hard work with the "Destroy" button? I cannot the lots to put up storage houses, which btw, wouldnt come nearly close enough to covering the items I need to remove from my vendors. And I have to ask the developers at Sony, if it is a database space problem, do we not pay you enough money to expand the database? And I mean seriously do meanthat not as a flame. My business is just picking up, and I am just getting word of mouth business from my repeat customers. This item limit truely is doing more harm than good for the players, in my humble opinion. I dont have a problem with any of the other changes... just the item limit. I work hard at my trades, and I would like to master Tailor and Bio-ENgineer the right way.. by making things and selling them to other players, not by grinding belts until I get a title. Please developers... hear us. Re-think the item limit.


Leahloo Dallas

Intrepid

Dead Cell Guild Tailor

Symphonia, Naboo



Leahloo Dallas
Master Shipwright
Intrepid
Defiant Few
Super_nice_jedi
Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:59 pm
#65

This merchant exploit has been around for a year, and people have used it left, right and center except those who like being Merchants and kept Merchant, but I wouldimaginethe majority would have Mastered Merchant, then dropped it and kept vendor and have stored quite a few things on it, but mostly put loads of stuff on it to sell, as what they're intended too, although I'm sure those who have used it for storage used it for stuff that they will sell eventually . Anyway, over the year or so, many people have no doubt got loads of stuff on their vendors, and have spent loads of time crafting most of the stuff on the vendors. If these new changes come through, and people have to start destroying their own stuff or they just go poof as they exceed the limits or don't meet the required skill, then this will be so soul destroying, and its that which is going to make people quit. I bet there are far more people who are using vendors without Merchant or even Artisan Business 3/4 than those who actually are.


It just seems rather cruel and mean to suddenly put this new Merchant "revamp" in so soon, in the way its coming in, its bad enough its coming in at all (mainly the low limits), but coming in on Publish 10, in a few weeks, is just too soon. People need to have time to try and sell off their excess stuff, so at least all the time they have spent crafting these items just don't go poof. Those who dropped Artisan Business 1-4 and Merchant, and want to keep having vendors also need to have time to re-acquire the skill, as if this change comes in in Publish 10, that is no way near enough time, to get to at least Merchant 0 0 0 4.


A few ideas I thought of:


  • Players who do not have Merchant or even Artisan get charged more, for vendor maintenance (doesn't necessarily have to be this way, just to give players a chance to clear stock without destroying their items, and those who need to reacquire the skill, then in a few publishes time could make it that they require skill to operate vendors)

  • All players should be able to have a vendor, but only operable when using a house, naturally, and can sell only as many items as what they can sell on the bazaar, or even maybe share the amount across the bazaar and a vendor if they have one. Is it 25 items a person can sell on a vendor? Haven't used it for ages, anyway if its 25, and a player (without artisan) places his only available vendor in his house, and advertises 10 items, then that player can only advertise a further 15 items on either the vendor or the bazaar. If the player then acquires Business 3, they can then have another vendor and an increased amount of items, and then be able to still sell 25 items on bazaar and whatever amount will be by having a vendor or two at Bus 3, then further vendors can be acquired at each relevant skill box of vendor+1


A possible exploit could occur from this Merchant Nerf:
Also this nerf could also make people create loads of 14 day accounts, to gain 10 more lots to store their masses of items from vendors, resulting in loads of houses or factories popping up everywhere, and then no one will be able to drop an extractor. Heres the thing: Create a 14 day account or two or three or four etc, drop loads of factories/houses, give admin rightson the paying accounts char house/factories to the 14 day accounts, then those 14 day chars can movethe items from the main char to the 14 day accounts factories/harvesters, then in about 13 days later activate more 14 day accounts, and with the first batch of 14 day accounts move the items back to the main chars structures, and use the new 14 day accounts to move the stuff from the main chars structures to their new structures, then the first batch 14 day chars removes their structures and places them in storage in the main chars structures for storage until 13 days later when a third batch of 14 day accounts get created and so on.


A rather long winded process but to those who have spent a yaer crafting and to suddenly lose it all, it could very well be worth it, and especially as this Nerf will in essence "ruin" the game for the majority, so people won't care, but this will cause a huge strain on the SWG servers, uses up loads available names unnecessary, could turn the playing field into a mass factory/house wasteland, for those who don't remove their structures before the 14 days are up or those who can't be bothered to remove them, resulting in not much room to place harvesters/houses legititmately. Although they would go poof soon enough when the maintenace runs out, unless someone pays 50k credits on each of them. Also this would mean that Gamespot/Fileplanet will suddenly have a false mass increase in their userbase, which could end up putting a strain on their servers too.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're out of time, SOE The whole 2.5 months shouldn't have been. The game was fine up until Nov 15th. If the CU was worked on, instead of devoting time to the NGE (including the many months prior to November), the game could possibly be totally bug free by now.

My account cancels on 2nd Feb, which was a waste as only played game for 1 day to get the life day gifts, will be resubbing when creature handler, Bio-engineer, scout, and ranger return, oh and the FS village.
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