Merchant Archive
Thread: Why every Merchant poacher cry baby should be quiet....
I have to strongly agree with DragonScout here. If those that are saying that Vendor poaching is wrong but use Vendors for storage (hands up I do this due to lack of usable space provided by the devs.), or factories ( I don't do this) is ok then you do have to step back and see what your saying.
Which is "Hey stop exploitoing a bug in our skills and using vendors if you don't have the skills.". Then turning around and putting stacks of resources your not using and other none factory components into the input hoppers. I for one have only components I'm currently using for the schems of things I'm making in the current week and the comps for those in the input hoppers and only a few things (like half of a Pup run) in the output hopper to make it easier to put them on vendors a bit at a time.
Message Edited by Tharryth on 06-01-2004 05:43 AM
Tharryth wrote:BountyBlunter,
ASAIK I never said that people poaching vendors was never wrong. If I did I missed it and never meant it. I'm more against those that say that the poaching is wrong but do other exloits themselves (storing things other then comps in the factoris is one of those.).
Ok, fair enough and I know what your saying.. But the topic of this thread is "Why every Merchant poacher cry baby should be quiet..." and it's about vendor poaching. Saying that you are against people who use vendors as storage and that vendor poaching is wrong, and the two can be compared isn't on the button for me.
Factories can store items and are usable by everyone meaning the storage exploit is system wide on these, Vendors can store items and are usable by anyone who chooses to exploit the merchant profession making that problem inflated, Not all normal merchants will 'exploit' vendors or factories in that fashion. The big difference between the storage "Exploit" and the vendor poaching is that vendor poaching is stealing SP not storage space in the database and it strikes directly at the heart of this profession.. I don't condone either but I think that they are two seperate issues, not ones to be compared or we could compare any bug/exploit to this one and apply the same thinking..
So, I see your point, I just don't think that it is here or there.. It can be used with any bug in any profession, most of all it is pointing out what anyone with moral standards should already know.. A cheat is a cheat.. Plain and simple.
I'm just tired of seeing this thread in the #1 spot.
*slaps head and hits submit (for the last time)*
Tharryth wrote:
I've gone through a few of these messages and have found that a great amount of the Merchants can do nothing but point fingers and cry "Nerf". I for one am glad to be just a dabbler then a "true" Merchant as one person had said. "True Mercahnt" come on that is a bit rough don't you think. By the way it was said anyone not in that catagory isn't a merchant at all. Kinda sad that some of you think of this as an elite profesion that takes a lot of blood sweet and tears to work through.
If you have decided that you keep the adequate number of skill points locked in the Merchant class, you too will be known as a True member of the Merchant profession, not an eploiter of the Merchant profession. That's all we mean by it. We mean for the derogitory rhetoricdirected to exploiters of the profession.
It sounds as if you are also a True Merchant, as if you do keep skillpoints invested in the skill trees to gain the benefits of the Merchant class. If you decide that you'd like to drop the points while retaining the services of a vendor, concider yourself not a true member of the Merchant profession, but otherwise an exploiter.
DragonScout wrote:
Hehe. Technically vendors +n is how many vendors you can PLACE at one time.
Paxlar wrote:
I'll fuel this fire a bit. No offense to any merchants here, but this whole "profession" should just be dumped. Damn near every MMORPG on the market allows anyone who wants to dedicate the time and energy to run vendors and a shop the ability to do so without having to get skills for it. They should just allow vendors to be "hired" from some NPC workers guild or something. The nicer the vendor the more the cost. Maybe up the money it costs to run one. If I remember right, in Ultima Online the vendor fee per day was a % of the total amount you had your items priced at.
All them skill boxes in the merchant line are so useless and dumb. Wow you can hire a better looking NPC here, or less fees there....like credits are sooooo hard to get. Anyone who wants to be a merchant should be allowed to do so without having to give up good skills for the junk that makes up the merchant profession. I'm sure if every die hard merchant here was given the option to keep EVERY single aspect of the merchant skills without having to use up points in the trees they would do it.
I say dump the whole merchant line. Make all the NPC vendor hiring come from just buying one and setting it up. The lower fees thing, just roll into artisian. Put a cap onhow many vendors for one person. 3? 5? Allow all current merchants to relocate their points into what ever skill boxes they want, WITHOUT having to grind up all the XP. Just free skills. Any thing they want that matches up to the total merchant skills they had.
Seems like a good deal to me. Everyone can place vendors, merchants get free skill reloctations. People can still be "merchants" just by setting up a shop and placing their vendors. Now they can use points for fun skills or more usefull skills and run their vendors too.
Well, if you wanna go with the old style of economy like every other OLD game, sure, by all means.
Fact is that SOE wanted to try out a new game mechanic. Aseperated Supply-Distribution model that more closly relates to a real-life economic system. If you wanna go back to the old systems, fine. Just go back to playing the old MMORPG's. Personally I wanna try out SOE's system to see how it works. Once the bug fixes are in place, you will see how the economy was intended to work.
Balkstar wrote:
Paxlar wrote:
I'll fuel this fire a bit. No offense to any merchants here, but this whole "profession" should just be dumped. Damn near every MMORPG on the market allows anyone who wants to dedicate the time and energy to run vendors and a shop the ability to do so without having to get skills for it. They should just allow vendors to be "hired" from some NPC workers guild or something. The nicer the vendor the more the cost. Maybe up the money it costs to run one. If I remember right, in Ultima Online the vendor fee per day was a % of the total amount you had your items priced at.
All them skill boxes in the merchant line are so useless and dumb. Wow you can hire a better looking NPC here, or less fees there....like credits are sooooo hard to get. Anyone who wants to be a merchant should be allowed to do so without having to give up good skills for the junk that makes up the merchant profession. I'm sure if every die hard merchant here was given the option to keep EVERY single aspect of the merchant skills without having to use up points in the trees they would do it.
I say dump the whole merchant line. Make all the NPC vendor hiring come from just buying one and setting it up. The lower fees thing, just roll into artisian. Put a cap onhow many vendors for one person. 3? 5? Allow all current merchants to relocate their points into what ever skill boxes they want, WITHOUT having to grind up all the XP. Just free skills. Any thing they want that matches up to the total merchant skills they had.
Seems like a good deal to me. Everyone can place vendors, merchants get free skill reloctations. People can still be "merchants" just by setting up a shop and placing their vendors. Now they can use points for fun skills or more usefull skills and run their vendors too.
Well, if you wanna go with the old style of economy like every other OLD game, sure, by all means.
Fact is that SOE wanted to try out a new game mechanic. Aseperated Supply-Distribution model that more closly relates to a real-life economic system. If you wanna go back to the old systems, fine. Just go back to playing the old MMORPG's. Personally I wanna try out SOE's system to see how it works. Once the bug fixes are in place, you will see how the economy was intended to work.
Paxlar wrote:
Please enlighten me as to how you think the economy should work in SWG? Also releate your response to other MMORPG's economy. I don't get your point. I really don't see any "new game mechanic" here, other than an entire set of skill trees which are really pointless. All of them could have been rolled into the artisan profession or just not included. I really don't think it would impact this game at all.
I would be gald to tell you how a complex producer-distributer market works, since SOE has created an excellent set of professions that match the everyday economy of the most of the free world. As poorly coded as it is, it is still the blueprint that follows a very successful system.
You will need to know a little Economics 101 first. Firstthing taught in Econ 101 is the definition of scarcity. There is a finite amount amount of everything in the universe. As there is a finite value in the quantity of allitems, there is a value placed on these items by people. Due to the variousenvironmental constraints that people are found in (i.e. what planet players are at; what resources are availible on said planet at any given time) The values on these items willnot be equal to each other from one person to the next. For instance: Player One is aScout on Talus that has collected a huge reserve of high OQ meat. Player 2 is a Doctor/Scout on Corellia whocan only collect low OQ meat where he is located. Player 1 has little need for the meat, other than to create traps that dont require a high OQ to be functional.Thevalue he places on the collection of meat is, say 4 CPU. Player2 has a great need of high OQ meats for his buffs, but the quantities of thehigh OQ meats where he is is not very high. There is an added cost to him, in that to collect this high OQ meat by himself would take away time that could be used to continue his endeavors as a doctor which may be more fruitful. Thus the value of such a collection of meat that Player 1 hasfor Player 2could be 15 CPU
This percieved difference in the value of goods drives the system we know as trade. As Player 1 has a lower percieved valuein the meats that he collected compared to Player 2, He would gain more, or receieve a better benefit, in trade with Player 2 then by using it himself. The law of Supply-and-Demand that will define how the thecost in this trade will be gotten atcan be extrapulated from this.
Now you may ask, what does this have anything to do with the Merchant's place in ecomony? I'd like to go back to my example of Player 1 and Player 2. As you saw before, Player 1 was a specialist that was able to dedicate his entire time in the persuit of the Scout Profession, which includes collecting resources from hunted animals. Player 2 is a hybrid character who must split his time between the different professions of Scout and Doctor. The cost of functioning as a scout for Player 1 is much less than Player2, as time devoted to the scout profession is 100% compared to Player2 which will always be <100%.
The same can be said of a dedicated Merchant versus a Crafter/Merchant hybrid. The dedicated Merchant will always be more successful on the selling aspect of the game, because he/she will be able to focusa higher percentage of his time and effort into the sale of goods (advertising a store, meeting up with potential customers, change storefronts to match thechangingtastes of clients).The crafter hybrid, when compared to a dedicated merchant distributor will be more inefficient in the sales of goods. How many players here tried to talk to a crafterto ask about availibility of a good he's crafted only to be told "Sorry, I'm busy grinding orders now. Pleaseleave me an email and I'll try to get back to you."It is the matter of the difference in cost of time and effort between the 2 players.
Although the merchant is not a dedicated class in other MMORPG's, I'm sure there were players that played those game in some sort of merchant capacity without crafting or selling loot. For them, it was a mastery at reselling goods by understanding scarcity and the Law ofSupply-and-Demandthat kept them playing. SOE decided to manifest this type of player into a playable profession. To you it may be cancerous game play, but to economies of the free world,it is the way buisness is done.
As it stands now, the profession of merchant has been highly broken, as the cost to gain the skills of the merchant has become virtually nothing due to exploitation, but this is not to say that it is not viable. When completely fixed, crafters will truely know how much time is worth to them for selling goods.
nathan118 wrote:
I'd like us to focus on two of the merchant trees. HIRING and MANAGEMENT.
These two tree produce two very important skill mods: HIRING and VENDORS.
Let's look at the description given for these trees on the in-game skill tree.
For the hiring tree: "...the merchant gains the ability to PLACE more interesting types of vendors..."
For the management tree: "...grants the merchant the ability to PLACE an additional vendor..."
Nowhere do any of these skill mods give a person the ability to RUN a vendor. Why should someone who drops their merchant skills lose the ability to use one? They have lost all the abilities they had, which concerned PLACING the vendors. I see no exploit/bug. **edit** all you want about the system, but don't resort to personal attacks. Bring it on.
Sixpack
Sorry, this is fairly pathetic and you are for bringing it up.
The context of skill trees is basic across the board. You earn a skill with experience ... when you give up that skill you no longer have the benefit bestowed by that skill box.
In the case of merchant, the lowest common benifit is having a vendor. If you give up Novice Merchant, you give up NPC vendors ... if you give up Business III then you give up having any vendor at all. (that is how it's going to work shortly)
As far as the world "Place" is concerned, that is in context meaing "Place = To Use".
Balkstar wrote:
Paxlar wrote:
Please enlighten me as to how you think the economy should work in SWG? Also releate your response to other MMORPG's economy. I don't get your point. I really don't see any "new game mechanic" here, other than an entire set of skill trees which are really pointless. All of them could have been rolled into the artisan profession or just not included. I really don't think it would impact this game at all.
I would be gald to tell you how a complex producer-distributer market works, since SOE has created an excellent set of professions that match the everyday economy of the most of the free world. As poorly coded as it is, it is still the blueprint that follows a very successful system.
You will need to know a little Economics 101 first. Firstthing taught in Econ 101 is the definition of scarcity. There is a finite amount amount of everything in the universe. As there is a finite value in the quantity of allitems, there is a value placed on these items by people. Due to the variousenvironmental constraints that people are found in (i.e. what planet players are at; what resources are availible on said planet at any given time) The values on these items willnot be equal to each other from one person to the next. For instance: Player One is aScout on Talus that has collected a huge reserve of high OQ meat. Player 2 is a Doctor/Scout on Corellia whocan only collect low OQ meat where he is located. Player 1 has little need for the meat, other than to create traps that dont require a high OQ to be functional.Thevalue he places on the collection of meat is, say 4 CPU. Player2 has a great need of high OQ meats for his buffs, but the quantities of thehigh OQ meats where he is is not very high. There is an added cost to him, in that to collect this high OQ meat by himself would take away time that could be used to continue his endeavors as a doctor which may be more fruitful. Thus the value of such a collection of meat that Player 1 hasfor Player 2could be 15 CPU
This percieved difference in the value of goods drives the system we know as trade. As Player 1 has a lower percieved valuein the meats that he collected compared to Player 2, He would gain more, or receieve a better benefit, in trade with Player 2 then by using it himself. The law of Supply-and-Demand that will define how the thecost in this trade will be gotten atcan be extrapulated from this.
Now you may ask, what does this have anything to do with the Merchant's place in ecomony? I'd like to go back to my example of Player 1 and Player 2. As you saw before, Player 1 was a specialist that was able to dedicate his entire time in the persuit of the Scout Profession, which includes collecting resources from hunted animals. Player 2 is a hybrid character who must split his time between the different professions of Scout and Doctor. The cost of functioning as a scout for Player 1 is much less than Player2, as time devoted to the scout profession is 100% compared to Player2 which will always be <100%.
The same can be said of a dedicated Merchant versus a Crafter/Merchant hybrid. The dedicated Merchant will always be more successful on the selling aspect of the game, because he/she will be able to focusa higher percentage of his time and effort into the sale of goods (advertising a store, meeting up with potential customers, change storefronts to match thechangingtastes of clients).The crafter hybrid, when compared to a dedicated merchant distributor will be more inefficient in the sales of goods. How many players here tried to talk to a crafterto ask about availibility of a good he's crafted only to be told "Sorry, I'm busy grinding orders now. Pleaseleave me an email and I'll try to get back to you."It is the matter of the difference in cost of time and effort between the 2 players.
Although the merchant is not a dedicated class in other MMORPG's, I'm sure there were players that played those game in some sort of merchant capacity without crafting or selling loot. For them, it was a mastery at reselling goods by understanding scarcity and the Law ofSupply-and-Demandthat kept them playing. SOE decided to manifest this type of player into a playable profession. To you it may be cancerous game play, but to economies of the free world,it is the way buisness is done.
As it stands now, the profession of merchant has been highly broken, as the cost to gain the skills of the merchant has become virtually nothing due to exploitation, but this is not to say that it is not viable. When completely fixed, crafters will truely know how much time is worth to them for selling goods.
What harm would come from allowing people to get a vendor and run a business out of it IF they wanted to dedicate the time to make a succssfull one?
Because there is more than just combat. SWG was designed so you could be nearly anything you wanted to be, and that includes non-combat professions. Merchant is an archtype that has been neglected in games past (and many feel neglected in this one).
But it doesn't make it a 'bad' profession. In fact, standalone merchant could be quite robust if they gave us the skills to really make it work well. I play this game primarily as a merchant and am proud to call myself one.
And if they are planning to keep it centered around vendors and not add anything else to it except a fix/upgrade to vendors, I think they should just take out the skill point cost, and make it like the proposed pilot professions are going to be -- using phantom skill points.