Merchant Archive
Thread: For the propoents of limit Answer me this please, How does a vendor limit make the game more fun?
HalasterTheBlack
Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:20 am
#27
joined42904 wrote:
I'm with Resource Monkey on this one.
It will be more fun for more crafters. The oligopolists will be upset. Some will quit. The rest of the community will go on. Maybe if we are lucky they will act as a credit sink on their way out. Or perhaps they will donate their credits to their cities on the way out.
Those crafters who are obscure but almost as good as the present overstocked oligopolists will see a dramatic increase in sales. They will feel like valued members of the community. They will be encouraged to continue crafting. Just think about it. Good all around.
The new search feature should minimize time folks spend trying to find a vendor that carries what they need. The Auction channel...if they would stop the spamming by some kind of code...could be used to let people know what you have in stock as well as the search feature. Folks won't have much trouble finding what they need. And the purchases will be spread around so that more people become well known and popular in the community.
Most crafters will like the result of these changes. Just watch and see.
I.e. nobody, because there aren't any. Again, please stop using words you don't understand before you injure yourself on them.
Almost as good, as in not as good? Which means the consumers (i.e. all the players) in the game get to buy inferior products for higher prices? HOW FUN! Here's a thought... how about if they feel encouraged to continue crafting by providing as good a product at as good a price with similar service to the currently "winning" crafters?
There is no new search feature.
Yes, thecrafters who remain will like the changes. Because they'll be able to make more money for doing less thinking and work. Yay them. Sorry if you like to use armor or weapons or harvesters or doctor buffs or anything that requires effort to produce a quality product... there won't be any more of those.
VarnaxDespin
Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:28 am
#28
joined42904 wrote:
I'm with Resource Monkey on this one.
It will be more fun for more crafters. The oligopolists will be upset. Some will quit. The rest of the community will go on. Maybe if we are lucky they will act as a credit sink on their way out. Or perhaps they will donate their credits to their cities on the way out.
Those crafters who are obscure but almost as good as the present overstocked oligopolists will see a dramatic increase in sales. They will feel like valued members of the community. They will be encouraged to continue crafting. Just think about it. Good all around.
The new search feature should minimize time folks spend trying to find a vendor that carries what they need. The Auction channel...if they would stop the spamming by some kind of code...could be used to let people know what you have in stock as well as the search feature. Folks won't have much trouble finding what they need. And the purchases will be spread around so that more people become well known and popular in the community.
Most crafters will like the result of these changes. Just watch and see.
I believe Resource Monkey was being sarcastic. Please correct me if I am wrong Resource Monkey.
ok just so I have this right joined42904,
-Quota = fair = more fun.
-No quota = unfair = less fun (because some players play longer and craft more then others its then unfair and unfun to the ones who dont play as much?Also, time spent working on achieving things should not be rewarded, rather discouraged?)
Would not then it be logical to also assume:
- Resource and EXP determined goods = unfair = less fun
- Every crafted item being identical = fair = more fun
So we should just get rid of experimentation, resource stats, and make all guns do the same damge, all armor protect the same etc... While were at it lets also put up computer stores that sell all the indentical items at a higher price then crafters would...that way customers can be gaurenteed to be able to find what they want. Oh wait that would be L2 (one of the worst games I have ever played IMO) True this makes us all equel, but I hardly think it would make the game more fun.
Message Edited by VarnaxDespin on 08-12-2004 12:28 PM
Aeja
Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:38 am
#29
Well Im an upbeat and love life kinda person 
. I for 1 wont be that bothered by the proposed changes. I personally think they are wrong and will severely nerf the casual crafter.
. I for 1 wont be that bothered by the proposed changes. I personally think they are wrong and will severely nerf the casual crafter.As for being more "fun" I dont know about but I will personally benefit greatly from these changes. I on AVG play between 8 to 10 hrs a day (no life, no job, no kids but 2 dogs 
). So being only 1 of a very few master AS/WS/Artisan and 3044 Merchant (and another act thats master merchant) I will not only stand better than most not only by number of Merchants but Vendor Item counts + Im usually on for several hrs a day so stocking several times a day although will be a pain will be made more profitable.
). So being only 1 of a very few master AS/WS/Artisan and 3044 Merchant (and another act thats master merchant) I will not only stand better than most not only by number of Merchants but Vendor Item counts + Im usually on for several hrs a day so stocking several times a day although will be a pain will be made more profitable.But as mentioned Im against these limits because I have always wanted to be a winner for the type of performance I did, NOT win by default.
joined42904
Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:39 am
#30
Halaster, 1-2% difference in base on armor isn't all that much inferior. But it's what new crafters will be stuck with in competing with someone who has resources stretching back to launch date. There ought to be some point...3 months?...over which actively following current spawns will allow new crafters to catch up. Or do you disagree?
The new search feature is the old search feature with two changes....
The disappearance of empty vendors and vendors of those exploiting the merchant profession. Yay!!
The exclusion of all empty vendors from the search results.
Thus whether vendors are or are not on the map becomes meaningful. Especially if they are labelled "Full Suits of Ubese"or "approx 400 max dam approx 7.1 speed T-21s." Just watch the creative vendor names that folks will come up with. The changes to the system make the old search feature useful enough that I think of it as a new search feature.
Some of the older folks are selling resources before they move on. Just FYI. Why can't the newer crafters make the same stuff the older ones made with the same resources? I think there will still be good products.
If you are 5 lower on max damage with otherwise identical stats on a T-21, does it really matter all that much? If you are 2% lower on base on your armor, is that the end of the world? Here's a toast to all those who would answer those questions with a resounding "No!"
joined42904
Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:44 am
#31
Smerdy,
Resource Monkey's post doen't at all sound sarcastic to me. He even explains why quality won't suffer all that much.
There will be a bit of inflation. I grant you this. But it won't be game-destroying inflation for anyone. And given how much it is possible for combat folks to earn in a buff session.... I don't think there will be a problem.
VarnaxDespin
Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:48 am
#32
joined42904 wrote:
Smerdy,
Resource Monkey's post doen't at all sound sarcastic to me. He even explains why quality won't suffer all that much.
There will be a bit of inflation. I grant you this. But it won't be game-destroying inflation for anyone. And given how much it is possible for combat folks to earn in a buff session.... I don't think there will be a problem.
It was I who thought the post was sarcastic.
1. Becauce the data pace problem is the Dev's issue to solve, not our to suffer for.
2. Because he cleary stated he doesnt think it will help average Joe crafters sales.
Once again Monkey if I mis-read you post please let me know.
Message Edited by VarnaxDespin on 08-12-2004 12:49 PM
joined42904
Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:51 am
#33
Varnax,
Nothing in that post looks sarcastic to me.
There are no quotas. Please explain to me how there is any kind of quota. You could restock your vendor 5 times a day in theory. That isn't a quota system at all.
I don't think every crafter should be identical. I think getting to the top should involve some amount of effort as it does now.
I do disagree with the way resources presently work in that even after being around for a number of months there are still great resources that predate me that some folks have and that I don't. Tough for me? I would prefer a guarantee of respawn of those best resources at least once every 3 months or so. Or implement resource decay so that mining 5M of a certain resource in month 1 doesn't result in an essentially permanent advantage for you and your group. Do you really disagree with this?
I'm for resource stats mattering. And folks having to chase good resources or get others to do that on their behalf. I'm also for experimentation mattering. So you need to be taught or figure out how to make the best stuff. (But chasing resources shouldn't mean paying extortionate prices for resources that spawned 8 months ago. That seems like bad game design to me.)
HalasterTheBlack
Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:52 am
#34
joined42904 wrote:
Halaster, 1-2% difference in base on armor isn't all that much inferior. But it's what new crafters will be stuck with in competing with someone who has resources stretching back to launch date.
YES!!! You hit the problem square on the head! I didn't think you had it in you! But you DID it! YAY! Please... read and re-read the last sentence you wrote - right above this one - until you have it firmly embedded in your brain. Once you've done that, THEN continue reading my response...
There ought to be some point...3 months?...over which actively following current spawns will allow new crafters to catch up. Or do you disagree?
I agree 100%. New crafters need the good (at least comparable) resources to catch up to the established crafters. We're on the same page... Yay still!
The new search feature is the old search feature with two changes....
The disappearance of empty vendors and vendors of those exploiting the merchant profession. Yay!!
The exclusion of all empty vendors from the search results.
OK, that's not any new search feature. That's the absence of empty vendors. Still means I get to go to vendors that a) don't stock what I want, b) charge too much, and c) stock crappy quality. A "new search feature" should be made that fixes all that, but that's irrelevant for the moment since we're talking vendor limits and how that solves the problem of new crafters having to wait for comparable resources to spawn...
Thus whether vendors are or are not on the map becomes meaningful. Especially if they are labelled "Full Suits of Ubese"or "approx 400 max dam approx 7.1 speed T-21s." Just watch the creative vendor names that folks will come up with. The changes to the system make the old search feature useful enough that I think of it as a new search feature.
You can't name a vendor as the 2nd one. And it's relatively stupid to have to rename (re-create) a vendor every time you can improve or change the product you're selling.
Some of the older folks are selling resources before they move on. Just FYI. Why can't the newer crafters make the same stuff the older ones made with the same resources? I think there will still be good products.
You're soooooooooo close to having the anwer. If it was a crab, it'd bite you!
If you are 5 lower on max damage with otherwise identical stats on a T-21, does it really matter all that much? If you are 2% lower on base on your armor, is that the end of the world? Here's a toast to all those who would answer those questions with a resounding "No!"
Yes. It matters to the consumer. Even if it only means a 5 second difference in the duration of combat, that 5 seconds can be the difference between life and death.
OK, you started strong and ended weak, so I'll give you the answer yet again.
The problem, as you so succintly stated, is that new crafters cannot compete on quality until they obtain materials that are comparable to those used by established crafters. Thing is, vendor limits do not solve this problem. Vendor limits do the following:
- Hamstring the established crafters and thus their customers.
- Hamstring newb crafters who've finally obtained comparable resources to established crafters.
Yay vendor limits.
There are really two schools of thought to solving the real problem. If you forgot what the real problem is, please go re-read the second sentence you wrote and I quoted.
The first school of thought is do nothing. The established crafters have spent a great deal of time, effort, and capital acquiring those resources. They *should* have an advantage based on all that expense and effort. Eventually, similar or better will spawn and the newb crafters can "catch up" - by their own patience, effort, and hard work. THIS would give newb crafters a feeling of accomplishment. In the meantime, if those newb crafters know their craft and are intelligent about it, they can certainly produce *something* worth selling, or even convince established crafters to sell off a portion of their stocks (don't tell me they won't - I did this very thing when I mastered Weaponsmith).
The second school of thought is to increase the frequency with which quality "named" resources spawn.
But the solution ain't vendor limits. That just hoses everyone.
ResourceMonkey
Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:58 am
#35
Since I am now back from lunch, I will let you know that I was not EXACTLY being sarcastic. The writer of this post asked "Answer me this..." So I thought I would.
I think that we can all agree that the sudden loss of all items on vendors and bazaars would make the game 'less fun', yes? I will not deny that a weak database is on the onus of the Devs to fix. However, it was also on the onus of the Devs to make it a requirement that you retain the Merchant skills to retain the benefits thereof (such as planetary ads). I believe that the latter would be much easier to fix than the former so I would not see this 'database fix' being done within the next year. Ego, they need a 'quick and dirty' solution. And, IMO, this is about the dirtiest you can get.
And, will the game be more fun for crafters? Maybe. Dunno. If people are used to stocking huge numbers of items in well known vendors, it will be a detriment to them as they will need to constantly put up more items everytime they run out of stock. For the small crafter, it will be a boon but only if 1) They make comparable products and 2) are near the original vendor and can be easily found.
Again, I was answering the questions. My original thought stands that putting ANY caps on the distribution of objects in a game where player created items are the ONLY items you can reasonably get (ala, no NPC vendors) is a bad idea.
If they simply made it so that you had to retain merchant abilities to have the benefits, this would be a moot discussion and need for nerf.
Aeja
Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:09 am
#36
joined42904 wrote:
Vernax,
I disagree that the powergamer will benefit most from the changes. It will be the casual crafter. Because the casual crafter isn't going unstocked a lot now. The casual crafter may not have over 660 total items on vendors now.
If the powergamer benefits, it will be because he or she is having no fun having to constantly restock vendors. And not everyone would be willing to continually do that. It would get old. Thus the powergamer oligopolist is faced with the choice to give up market share or alternatively have little or no fun in the game.
Do you enjoy stocking vendors? I don't particularly enjoy putting suits of armor in bags. Maybe you do.
Well This logic totally escapes me. As a power gamer that spends 8 to 10 hrs probly more on the game its nothing to take a hr to restock. Your right certain profesions would find it difacult to place over 600 items (assuming they have MASTER MERCHANT or 0004 merchant), but many crafters only have 1 or 2 boxes in merchant that would limit them to 300-400 items. Most POWER merchants wouldnt have a problem with it an xtra hr isnt much but for a casual gamer who plays 2 maybe 3 hrs a day is taking half thier "FUN" time away compared to 1/10th of mine.
But you are right WE all are losing "FUN" time but you need to look at the ratios between the casual gamer and the power gamer.
RocketM
Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:48 am
#37
In the end the change wont significantly alter the balance between casual and power crafters. The power crafters will just restock their vendors more often and continue to get a lot more sales than the casual guys who have less selection, lower quality, and less reliable stock levels. The casual guys never really had to restock that much because they don't sell that much so I dont see it having a huge effect on that.
What the changeswill do is free up some database space for the coming JTL expansion. I think that's also the purpose behind the mid-Oct character purge. I don't see how that can be a bad thing in the long run. Its better for them to do it now than to release JTL with inadequate database space and have our houses start disappearing or have database lag ruin the experience. I'd have to say its more fun to play a game with a stable database than one where your posessions start disappearing or one that suffers from too much lag. 3+ seconds after you click on your bike till you get the option to mount the bike anyone? It happenssometimes on Dantooine on Intrepid server right now.
Message Edited by RocketM on 08-13-2004 10:52 AM
Indene
Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:02 am
#38
LadyGrey wrote:This game is supposed to be fun?????Welcome to 1984. Tedium is actually immersion, and work-arounds are actually game-play.How many fingers am I holding up?
I can't tell. These toothpicks holding my eyes open are blurring my vision
-Indene-
Indene
Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:21 am
#39
joined42904 wrote:
.....Those crafters who are obscure but almost as good as the present overstocked oligopolists will see a dramatic increase in sales. They will feel like valued members of the community. They will be encouraged to continue crafting. Just think about it. Good all around.
Why were they obscure? Why would that change? Oh if they are the only ones left they will eventually be found and word of mouth advertizing (or a merchant importer) will create a dramatic increase in their sales. But if they are selling well now what is their motovation to make better stuff? If they had the urge to make better stuff they would have done so already. Why is it that the players who did go out of their way to make good stuff and get known are demonized (the way the word oligopolist is used implys that it should be an insult.) Why do you believe that a newer player has no chance against the current elders that have spent countless hours of their game time to create their businesses? Why should the current elders be blamed for the newer players hard road? They walked a hard road to get were they were. Is their work not worth as much as the newer player? Why is feeling even in a business discussion?
Now about economics. The (very) successful players got there because of simple market forces in this game. The new player can use the same forces. When I came in I looked around and became a miner and CH. I lisened to what crafters where looking for. I made deals and went and harvested the resources. I found nitches not being filled (ore for houses way too expensive at 6cpu) and filled them. There are big Oligopolist organizations in our galaxy. They make millions of credits per week. They may even share that with their "employees". Me I run a small operation. I had independant cotractors help me harvest. Helped several in my city become better off. I have enough credits to buy anything I want. All this and big oligopolists in my world (in resource businesss). The only thing stopping a player from succeding is their own will.
-Indene-