Merchant Archive
Thread: can this be addressed w/o being flamed
JTGAlpha wrote:
Message Edited by Balkstar on 06-18-2004 08:44 AM
Psst... Scout is a novice profession too. I think that's why Broom used it in his example.
lisasdarren wrote:
Broom wrote:
Sorry to have to say this, but I think the whole Merchant profession needs to be integrated into Master Artisan. That would at least make THAT profession worth having and keeping, for as it is, Master Artisan is severely lacking in money-making potential. A Scout can make millions going after the HQ meats (85-120 cpu being no exception). An Artisan can go run missions for a maximum of 1600 credits per till his/her nose bleeds.
Master artisan is a novice profession, it is a stepping stone to several elite crafting professions and will never make you as much money as an elite profession will.
First off... You really shouldn't tell Broom that storage is not the issue, because incase you failed to read what 'this' particular subject is actually about, it is vendors as storage. All the vendor poachers and vendor revamp people came in and kept sidetracking the issue.. and I admit I let myself get sidetracked with them. But, he/she has every right to bring up the storage issue here because that is specifically what this topic is about. Don't like it, cause it doesn't fit your perfect world idea of merchants who just sell things on vendors, well, start a different topic.
okay.. now to start in again.
The vendor is not the storefront.. the vendor IS merchant. Leave the vendor and get rid of the merchant profession and ZERO has changed in the SWG world. That is a problem.
There will never be a demand for merchants to be the middleman. You are never going to see merchants running most of the sales. I am talking 'true' merchants.. the ones that would actually make use of things like consignment sales. The ones like Dingoboi who says he isn't a crafter w/ merchant skills. Because as it is now, no one is going to bother with that much work just to have someone else take a portion of their sales. The only possible way this would ever happen, is if they raise the skill point cost on merchant -- which would be a joke -- or they put item limits and required you to have or be near master merchant to have a higher item limit per vendor. And even then, people are not going to use other players, they will just work enough of merchant into their template to make it work.
Vendors alone do not make a profession! They make a utility skill point sinkhole that is a necessary evil.
The systems I suggested were meaningful and would add some fun to merchant. And they would allow ways to earn money. Which would allow merchants to gain capital by just being a Merchant and then set up a resale business or whatever they wanted to do.
And it is nice that you think merchant is more than just vendors... yet everything you say points it right back at them. Vendors = merchants. And the only tools you want are ways to make those vendors better.
Yay!!! I want to be part of a profession that doesn't require me to do anything at all!!! I mean like wow! It is just soo cool to PAY to PLAY a GAME and not actually have to DO anything. lol.
And broom. Good comments
In closing... Vendor poaching will be fixed.. big deal. Vendors as storage.. will never go away as the system is now.. and merchant is a doomed profession unless it expands away from just vendors and becomes something you can actually play.
ps. I love when merchants tell crafters not to make so much, or not to store so many components. or when they say using merchants to sell their items will be easier for the casual player. I mean it is just so easy to lug around hundreds of items -- ever moved a house? -- and put them up on some merchants vendor. Just super easy for the casual player. And I stand by previous comments made by myself that say the best thing they could do, as merchant stands now -- centered around vendors, is to take away the skill point cost and make it use phantom points like the pilot professions. Then, as long as you had skill points invested in business 4.. you could master merchant without ever spending another SP on it.
Message Edited by DragonScout on 06-18-2004 03:39 PM
DragonScout wrote:
Well.. to respond...
First off... You really shouldn't tell Broom that storage is not the issue, because incase you failed to read what 'this' particular subject is actually about, it is vendors as storage. All the vendor poachers and vendor revamp people came in and kept sidetracking the issue.. and I admit I let myself get sidetracked with them. But, he/she has every right to bring up the storage issue here because that is specifically what this topic is about. Don't like it, cause it doesn't fit your perfect world idea of merchants who just sell things on vendors, well, start a different topic.
Oops, sorry.. I got sidetracked too...
okay.. now to start in again.
The vendor is not the storefront.. the vendor IS merchant. Leave the vendor and get rid of the merchant profession and ZERO has changed in the SWG world. That is a problem.
Okay, we obviously look at this from a different point of view. I am talking about playing a 'merchant' not just having the profession with the title merchant, but playing a mechant, its a roleplaying thing and this is a roleplaying game. Skills are there to help you roleplay, they shouldn't be defining your gameplay.
Your clearly focusing on the skills and that is why you can't see past vendors.
There will never be a demand for merchants to be the middleman. You are never going to see merchants running most of the sales. I am talking 'true' merchants.. the ones that would actually make use of things like consignment sales. The ones like Dingoboi who says he isn't a crafter w/ merchant skills. Because as it is now, no one is going to bother with that much work just to have someone else take a portion of their sales. The only possible way this would ever happen, is if they raise the skill point cost on merchant -- which would be a joke -- or they put item limits and required you to have or be near master merchant to have a higher item limit per vendor. And even then, people are not going to use other players, they will just work enough of merchant into their template to make it work.
Why won't there be a demand? make it beneficial for crafters to sell through merchants and they will... Why do you look at it as taking part of their sales? Crafters have two options, be a small business selling through their own storefront by investing points into merchant (therefore restricting what else they can do with their skill points) or sell wholesale to a merchant who then deals with the sales side of things. Remeber one of the big complaints from crafters is that they will have to drop other skills they like having to take merchant skills, selling through a deicated merchant would solve this. If we need to give more incentive to crafters then how about getting paid up front for their goods as an option? See my post here for a way to do this.
The systems I suggested were meaningful and would add some fun to merchant. And they would allow ways to earn money. Which would allow merchants to gain capital by just being a Merchant and then set up a resale business or whatever they wanted to do.
And as i said fair play to you, but PVE should always be secondary for a profession that by its very nature is about interaction between players.
Yay!!! I want to be part of a profession that doesn't require me to do anything at all!!! I mean like wow! It is just soo cool to PAY to PLAY a GAME and not actually have to DO anything. lol.
You make me want to scream with comments like this, but i will just comment calmly instead.
To be a successful merchant requires a lot more than just putting things on vendors, which part of my many lists o things merchant needs to do to be a successful merchant didn't you understand? I'll list some of them again for your review:
-
Market Research - talking to different types of players and finding out what they want to be able to buy -
Price Research - Checking the pricing of the competition in the area -
Sourcing Products - Finding a good range of crafters selling the products yuo have decided to stock, and not just one of each if you are selling armour you robably want stock from 3 or 4 different 'smiths -
Negotiating deals - negotiating what quantities you want from these crafters and how often and for what prices. -
Marketing your store -
Communicating with past customers to check they are happy with their purchases -
Searching the galaxy for that something a little different to be able to offer
To play a merchant there are lots of things to do... Its not just about vendors /takes deep breath
ps. I love when merchants tell crafters not to make so much, or not to store so many components. or when they say using merchants to sell their items will be easier for the casual player. I mean it is just so easy to lug around hundreds of items -- ever moved a house? -- and put them up on some merchants vendor. Just super easy for the casual player. And I stand by previous comments made by myself that say the best thing they could do, as merchant stands now -- centered around vendors, is to take away the skill point cost and make it use phantom points like the pilot professions. Then, as long as you had skill points invested in business 4.. you could master merchant without ever spending another SP on it.
I am not just a merchant, i'm a crafter too... I tell many people who complain about storage that they need to get rid of stuff, and crafters who complain they don't have enough room for subcomponents and resources that they obviously have too many resources and subcomponents.
I have also moved house, took me two trips to move all my stuff, big deal. (inventory plus backpack gives 110 storage slots, drop your normal backpack in the bank, grab a knew one and the 150 item limit in a house is nothing)
Finally on the casual player issue...
Amy the Artisan makes a selection of goods mass produced, one day she spends some time crafting powerups until she gets one she thinks is good enough, makes a schematic and sets her factory to work. A day later she logs on grabs drops her normal backpack and grabs her delivery pack, heads to the facotry and collects the crates (okay the process of collecting them needs improving, anyone say multiselect?) grabs a shuttle to where the merchant she deals with is based and offers them to the vendor (again multiselect would make things easier) The she goes back to crafting custom items that have been requested by friends. Or puts on her heavy swordsman hat and goes to bash up some nightsisters.
Message Edited by DragonScout on 06-18-2004 03:39 PM
So to summarise, I feel that fixing the vendor interface & issues (to allow easy reselling of timed-out items, allow a multiselect on all windows, preferable allow packs to be opened on the vendor so the contents can be checked, some type of credit or consignment sales and of course restricting vendors to those with the SP) along with creating an incentive for crafters to sell through merchants would be enough to create a demand a for merchants and make using them easy enough that people will. Then there is plenty of things for a wannabe merchant to do while role-playing their merchant, they have to do all those things i listed above.
We will obviously won't agree on this, you are focused on skills and won't accept that most of the things a merchant needs to do don't require any in game skills, just the ability to communicate and roleplay. While I am a great believer that so long as I have a simple and effective means to buy and sell goods (vendor and some type of credit / consignment system) I can play a successful merchant, and be better or worse than the next guy who has the same in-game skills, due to my negotiation and customer service skills etc.
DragonScout wrote:
I am talking 'true' merchants.. the ones that would actually make use of things like consignment sales. The ones like Dingoboi who says he isn't a crafter w/ merchant skills.
Doesn't Dingo sell power? Power/resources being the only commodity that a merchant can acquire on his/her own without picking up any other skills?
How many "true" merchants are there under the current system who actually make their living solely by selling goodsmade by other crafters? (Not counting alts and guildmates, that is.) That to my mind is what merchant should really be, but I don't think I've actually seen any of those in game.
p4Samwise wrote:
Doesn't Dingo sell power? Power/resources being the only commodity that a merchant can acquire on his/her own without picking up any other skills?
Message Edited by DingoBoi on 06-19-2004 07:30 PM
Yes, I like tools. Especially in a game where you are limited by skill points as to which tools you get. Every other profession in the game(except maybe politician -- which is another horrible utility prof) grants you skills/abilities/tools to use on a daily basis while PLAYING that profession. Merchant on the other hand, gives you vendors, which you do alll the things you mentioned once -- the set up of your shop, the layout, figuring out what you are going to sale, etc -- and then once you stock it, you are done. You can then log out and go play another game or read a book or go the gym... whatever. But you don't have to actually PLAY, to continue being a successful merchant. Every now and then you have to come back into the game and restock your vendor and that is it. To me, any profession that doesn't encourage you to be in the game and PLAYING, has major issues with it. And with things like consignment sales or automated emails -- all cool things -- it will be even worse, because there will be that much less to actually DO as a merchant -- because it will all be done for you.
And again. In a world where players can dabble in merchant, the chances of them going through the trouble of bringing the items to a third-party merchant, or to a consignment vendor, and then loosing even 5% of his sales... is just not realistic. Not when it would be easier to just load his own vendor and be in complete control of his items and make all the money for himself. Item limits on vendors might change this, but I think it will just encourage more people to have more skill points invested in merchant -- meaning more alt characters.
Also, there is nothing about merchant's very nature that says it has to be PvP. Nothing at all. You choose to look at it that way. If, by your limited definition, they are people who sell things, they could just as easily sell things to NPCs and be fulfilling your definition.
But anyways. you keep saying that it is all roleplaying and use of these intangible skills that you only possibly use once or twice. And thats fine. But to me, a profession that is centered around that, is not a viable stand alone profession. And that is why I would like to see other systems and tools and abilities directed at non-vendor-related activities. Things that a merchant can actually DO while they are in game and not stocking their vendor. That is the point you are constantly missing. I could care less in the end about vendors. I think they are fairly cool for what they do. But I think it incredibly sad that they are all this profession has, when every time they get improved and upgraded they encourage the player behind the merchant to actually play the game less.
DragonScout wrote:
Also, there is nothing about merchant's very nature that says it has to be PvP. Nothing at all. You choose to look at it that way. If, by your limited definition, they are people who sell things, they could just as easily sell things to NPCs and be fulfilling your definition.
And you guys really need to do something about the rotting eggs!