Merchant Archive
Thread: can this be addressed w/o being flamed
DragonScout wrote:
Legitimate concerns Songe. It would be a question of how they implemented it. But like the two off-hand suggestions I made...
trade between cities (yes.. these could be just simply delivery missions at first.. but then maybe later on, as you got more skill in the trade tree... you would be given missions that give you a specific component you would need to find a crafter to make and make say 5 crates of.. and then you would have to transport that to some random npc city... and it would get harder as you went up the merchant trade missions. THAT I think could be fairly cool.. and uses a lot of mechanics already in game. and would be very easy to code that unless you are merchant, you can't do them.)
commodities market.. this would be very easy to code to be merchant only. it would just check if you were at least novice merchant each time you accessed the terminal... then would list a bunch of commodities and the price they were going for at that moment. You could buy low in one city.. fly to another city on a different planet that had that commoditiy for a higher price.. and make cash off it. Then you see something there that is cheaper than it was where you started, so you buy even more of it now (because you have more capital to use).. fly back sell it.. and so on. This would definitely take a bit more programming, but still not THAT much. And you could even buy commodities at super low prices... and hoard it for a while until prices went up really high... etc etc. I think THIS would be fun. I would keep merchant skills just to do this all day long. lol. And it could be an entire skill tree.. and the higher in that skill set you go the more discounts or bulk you can buy.
I think those two changes alone would not only make merchant viable on its own as a money making source, but would also make vendors just a small part of who they are overall. And yes, if they fixed vendor poaching along with it.. then yes, it would be awesome. But to me, changes that include mechanics for things like I mentioned above are far more important than fixing vendor poaching... in my opinion.
These two ideas are a horrible step backwards, they promote interaction with the game enviroment as opposed to interaction between players.
Merchant is a profession which needs to socially interact to succeed, it needs to be about dealing with suppliers and customers not about running missions.
What merchant needs is a sensible method of selling player crafted goods without the need for significant startup capitol and without any risk to the crafter. The consignment system that has been proposed many times on these boards is the simplest answer to that. Crafter offers it at X price on consignment, merchant accepts and then can offer it to their vendor at Y price, when it sells both parties get the relevant amounts.
The other big problem (and not just for merchants) can be solved by a multiselect on anything, inventory, vendors, hoppers etc.
But you are right. If the only thing you feel merchants should do is sell crap to other players... by all means, keep the profession as it is, nothing but a utility that will never be able to stand alone, no matter what tools it gets to improve vendors or selling. With systems like the ones I suggested merchants could actually BE merchants, instead of just vendor stockers. I am sorry, but to me, if all there is to merchant is stocking a vendor, then no matter how special or helpful the tools for stocking that vendor are, it will never be anything more than a limited utility profession used primarily by crafters to sell their goods.
Message Edited by DragonScout on 06-17-2004 02:37 AM
I hope beyond hope that eventually, the Dev's get around to removing all vendors that characters don't have the skill to own........
......without telling anyone that the vendors are going to be removed. Serve them right to lose all their illegally stored stuff.
When I dropped merchant skills, I removed my "illegal" vendors and replaced them with ones I could make based on my current skill, even the ones that were only customized because I no longer had the skills to customize vendors with clothes......
All the furor over database storage problems could be avoided by removing these illegal vendors, which would remove the added illegal items....
Translation I hope beyond hope that this game goes out of bussiness do to the exidouse of ALL MOST ALL THE CRAFTERS, many of whom did not know better. BTW I bet atleast once you used the Shuttle Repair EXPLOITE on your "car" as such YOU SHOULD BE PERMANTLY BANNED FROM THE GAME as Losing your car is not a equivalant punishment.
DragonScout wrote:
Horrible step backwards? I don't think so.
Me too.
trade between cities (yes.. these could be just simply delivery missions at first.. but then maybe later on, as you got more skill in the trade tree... you would be given missions that give you a specific component you would need to find a crafter to make and make say 5 crates of.. and then you would have to transport that to some random npc city... and it would get harder as you went up the merchant trade missions. THAT I think could be fairly cool.. and uses a lot of mechanics already in game. and would be very easy to code that unless you are merchant, you can't do them.)
Basically Merchant Mission terminals that increase in difficulty, distance and reward as the merchant themselves increases in skill. I like it... Only thing I would say is if you gain any merchant xp from the missions being completedit should be minimal due to the methods of xp gain we already have in place and we only have one xp type.
commodities market.. this would be very easy to code to be merchant only. it would just check if you were at least novice merchant each time you accessed the terminal... then would list a bunch of commodities and the price they were going for at that moment. You could buy low in one city.. fly to another city on a different planet that had that commoditiy for a higher price.. and make cash off it. Then you see something there that is cheaper than it was where you started, so you buy even more of it now (because you have more capital to use).. fly back sell it.. and so on. This would definitely take a bit more programming, but still not THAT much. And you could even buy commodities at super low prices... and hoard it for a while until prices went up really high... etc etc. I think THIS would be fun. I would keep merchant skills just to do this all day long. lol. And it could be an entire skill tree.. and the higher in that skill set you go the more discounts or bulk you can buy.
Ever played freelancer, or any other space trading based game ? They usually have some kind of in flight navigation system which shows the current (or last visited) commodities and pricingat given locations around the map. Using that you can devise and refine your own specific trade routes to maximise profits and reduce risk... If they did it in SWG/JTL, I know I would be using it!
DragonScout wrote:
Horrible step backwards? I don't think so. They expand the profession into something that can stand on its own without requiring at least one other profession. They would let a merchant interact with the gaming enviroment, which is part of the reason people like being in the combat professions, because then you can just go deal with NPCs who don't say stupid things back to you -- well, unless they are programmed to. hehe. It would let a merchant earn money, doing merchant-like things, and be able to afford to buy and resell. You could also expand the commodities market to produce real items and resources. So that you could maybe get lucky and find a rare high quality steel and then sell it to players. Or have your friend dig up a bunch of ore that is selling pretty high on the commodity market in bestine... There are a lot of ways you could add in player interaction into both of the systems I suggestion.
Ok so to include some background involvement would allow a bit more variety, but i still say that is not what the game is about, the important word is Multiplayer, its about interacting with other players. To ask for these ideas to be added, rather than ways to make buying and selling player crafted goods easier is not what i would consider improving the profession.
But you are right. If the only thing you feel merchants should do is sell crap to other players...
Thats what merchants do they buy things from one person and sell it to another, thats thedefinition of a merchant... 
by all means, keep the profession as it is, nothing but a utility that will never be able to stand alone, no matter what tools it gets to improve vendors or selling. With systems like the ones I suggested merchants could actually BE merchants, instead of just vendor stockers. I am sorry, but to me, if all there is to merchant is stocking a vendor, then no matter how special or helpful the tools for stocking that vendor are, it will never be anything more than a limited utility profession used primarily by crafters to sell their goods.
If all you do is stock a vendor then you are not a merchant. You seem obsessed with stocking vendors, let me give you some idea of other things that need to be done in order to be a successful merchant.
- Analysing the market to establish what is in demand
- Planning where to locate your store based on travel routes, population density, ease of access
- Searching out high quality suppliers, who are willing to work with you and who can supply the stock you want to sell.
- Negotiating deals with these suppliers for your stock
- Planning pricing structure for these products that allows you to maximise profit
- Talking to customers to ensure they are happy, and to discover if there are other products they require
- Arrange marketing for your business (trade forums, barker droids, hiring other players to recommend your store)
- Designing the layout of your store so that people don't find it confusing and enjoy being there.
If you see being a merchant as putting goods on a vendor and thats it then it is just a utility profession and you are clearly not cut out to be a merchant. However if you look at the bigger picture of being a merchant then it is far more involved than just putting stock on a vendor.
Message Edited by DragonScout on 06-17-2004 02:37 AM
And yeah.. I have played a few different games where they had types of commodity markets. They are usually fun to mess around with, even if they are designed poorly. For swg... they could limit it by having each skill box allow you to buy larger quantities and have a wider selection of goods you could purchase or sale. Say at novice.. you could buy 2 crates worth of sugar per 'week'.. yet at master you could buy 10... something like that. You could then store the sugar if you found it really low and wait for the price to go up somewhere... in the mean time buying low in one place and selling high in another. Especially once personal ships come out this could be a LOT of fun. Or at least it would be for me.
I will eventually post all this in its own topic... but still working on an outline.
I also didn't say that I wouldn't want other ways to sell things added, or improvements to vendors to be upgraded. I just don't think any revamp should be focused on that, and that alone.
And yes, if you want to limit the profession to a text book definition, go ahead. I prefer to think big, and see merchants as Jabba the hutt, who wouldn't be caught dead bothering with a vendor, or stock brokers -- who yes, sell things, but on a grander scale than simple vendors. Just about any high level business I can think of could have their various different personnel classified as 'merchants', yet only a very few -- the retail clerks/warehouse stockers of the process -- would deal with vendors.
And, You obviously are not in the same game I am in lisasdarren. Because in SWG, there are zero tools for what you say merchant is all about. And, again, your ideas surrounding what being merchant IS, is just one form of merchant, a very limited form centered around vendors and using vendors to sell to other players. And most of it doesn't take any 'time', nor would I really call it 'playing' a game. setting up location and store layout. One time only deals. Since 90% of the people with merchant are crafters, there really isn't much analyzing going on. Some, but mostly it is a matter of selling what the market demands, and that is really a one time only thing that changes rarely when new things come out or patches change the status quo. Advertising is something you can do, but is mostly passive and annoying. deals with other players is unlikely, even with new systems in place. It just isn't realistic to expect people to deal with other players in a game where it is so easy to dabble. And say you get all the upgrades to vendors. Say you get automated replies to customers who buy things, say you get better consignment sales, say you get upgrades to the interface so they are easier to work with. Say you get all that. Then there is ZERO work for a merchant to do. And then it really is a utility profession because then it is completely automated. At least now you have to stock the vendors and personally send out emails and junk. But you want all that automated and made easier -- for good reason -- and yet then there will be that much less to actually DO as a merchant. And that is my biggest problem with this profession. It is just there. You don't really PLAY it. You just use it to sell things you make with other professions, and that is its only purpose in the game. And if it is going to stay that way, in my opinion, they should have just removed it during beta and made vendors just like harvesters -- usable by everyone.
I have a question for most of the merchants out there... Why does the profession HAVE to be centered around vendors? I swear.. I never expected anyone to sit there and tell me that ideas to expand merchant away from just vendors would be bad.. yet here I have someone saying that it would be a horrible step backwards. Why does being a merchant have to mean that you are a low level entry position warehouse stocker/retail clerk? Why can't it be more than that?
Um isn't it called bazaar?
DragonScout wrote:
commodities market.. this would be very easy to code to be merchant only. it would just check if you were at least novice merchant each time you accessed the terminal... then would list a bunch of commodities and the price they were going for at that moment. You could buy low in one city.. fly to another city on a different planet that had that commoditiy for a higher price.. and make cash off it. Then you see something there that is cheaper than it was where you started, so you buy even more of it now (because you have more capital to use).. fly back sell it.. and so on. This would definitely take a bit more programming, but still not THAT much. And you could even buy commodities at super low prices... and hoard it for a while until prices went up really high... etc etc. I think THIS would be fun. I would keep merchant skills just to do this all day long. lol. And it could be an entire skill tree.. and the higher in that skill set you go the more discounts or bulk you can buy.
I'll go you two better and address all three. 
1)They won't ONLY fix this. They'll fix other stuff too. Whether or not they'll do a good job is ENTIRELY separate from this WHOLE discussion. IN FACT you're arguments here, which have NOT cooled things down, obviously, as we're still debating this on page what now? Only make this issue MORE important to the devs's.
But I suppose I can take solace in the fact that you have to ask the question.Looked at my sig lately?
Oh, and "They fix one thing and break others" doesn't count, because that's not always true. The ONLY thing for certain is that they ALWAYS try to fix MULTIPLE issues EVERY revamp. That's irrefuteable.
p4Samwise wrote:
You sound awfully confident that they won't ONLY fix this. Do you have inside info that I don't?