Merchant Archive
Thread: Merchant is nothing more than a skill point sink
There is 1 point the original poster made that i would like to respond about. It is what i think is his true issue, and the reason he is angry.
Quote : " Additionally, even if pure merchants became prevalent, the general population would get pissed off because everything would cost more, since not only would the crafter be trying to make a profit, but there would be a middleman added to the mix trying to make a profit as well. "/Quote
Here is your flaw. This is an untrue statment for a real merchant.
What you see in that quote is a person trying to buy product at reatail price and then trying to resell it with a markup, and we all know that NO merchant will do this. In laymans terms here is my way, and why it works......
I as Merchant go around and scout out Crafter A, Crafter B, and Crafter C. To make things simple all 3 Crafters are Mid Range Novice, and all sell an item at 500 cr each on their respective Vendors. Ok here is where Merchant comes in.
I talk to each crafter and say to them "Mr or Ms Crafter i would like to stock your wares in my store, but i would like to sell them at 500 cr also. Could i get a Wholesale discount from you?"
Crafter A tells me Yes, and he will give me 50 credits off on each item if i buy 10 or more at a time. I make a note and continue.
Crafter B tells me No. He will sell at full price and i should mark up from there. I cross him off my list and tag him as a Retailer, and continue.
Crafter C tells me he will match crafter A at 50 cr discount , but will also give me a 100 cr discount on orders over 50. I tag Crafter C as a Wholesaler. I quickly make a Purchase Order for 200 Items, and arrange delivery detials. I also arrange for future orders, and start to build a friendship with this crafter.
So i arrive at my shop, and stock my vendor with the 200 items i have just purchsed, and mark them at 500 cr each... the SAME selling price as the Crafters vendor. He knows he will sell many more large orders to me, and i know i will be able to turn a profit selling at the same price as the crafter. It's how merchants are supposed to work in my book.
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I'm a troll. I love that. I called the profession retarded, which it is, and several of you take it as a personal insult and then continue to insult me personally in response. I am criticizing the game. Some of you need to calm down.
In response to those of you who can manage to disagree with my opinion without insulting me...
Overall, I'm just talking about how the game works now. Crafters will not lower their prices so they can give up merchant skills, because to a greater or lesser extent every crafter is a crafter to make money. I understand that it would be good if they did, so that there would be increased interdependancy in the game, but really, as the game is now, it's not going to happen.
I know several people who have purchased second accounts so they didn't have to waste the skills of their main characters on the merchant profession. What does that tell you about how necessary merchant skills are to any crafter at this time?
some specific quotes....
"And what do you mean pure merchant? Of course a merchant is a crafter! They get their pre-reqs from the Artisan tree!"
That may be the case, but, it seems to me that any profession in the game should have a function by itself, especially an elite profession. Can you name me any other profession (except medical crafters, and maybe smuggler) which most often depends on the character also having a different elite profession? There are certain cases where it helps, obviously, but there is no case similar to the merchant where it is a virtual requirement. There may be a few success stories out there, but assuming that my server is typical, the crafter-merchant player is typical of those crafters who are high level and successful.
Actually, I am impressed by Jhava_Bein's ideas about the professions, and it would be nice if things could work like that on a large scale, but even in that example, the crafter has merchant skills. Also it points out another flaw. Merchants cannot be assured of their stock. If I go to a weaponsmith's shop, I'm pretty sure what I can find there, it being the shop of the person who makes the weapons, and if I need something that isn't there, I can always contact the weaponsmith, and he can make me what I need. However, a merchant may not be able to consistently get product from a crafter, as a result of schedule problems, personal disagreements perhaps, or there being another order that the crafter has to fill. As a customer, it seems like it would be much easier to get in contact with the crafter himself.
I'm really amazed though that more people don't agree with me about merchant being a messed up profession though. And if someone wants to know what my background in the game is, I'm a master tailor and a master architect. I run two shops in a PA which is owned by a fairly high level merchant who is a good friend of mine, and who's thoroughly pissed off about not being able to be a pure merchant. I am also doingpretty well fake-economically.
I dunno if everyone, especially the correspondent, replied to this post in the most mature manner 
, but I guess I can see getting steamed about someone calling my chosen profession retarded. Still, he made a good point, it is a game and people sure take everything pretty personally. Anyways, we all put alot of time into it and I can't say I didnt nearly break my keyboard more than a couple of times over this or that.
I think his point is more relevant to a crafter who is upset that he has to sink valuable skill points into the merchant tree to have a viable business. Of course, we (crafters) dont have to do this, but we often forget.Partially, I think, because at this time it seems there actually aren't enough players interested in being pure merchants to push all the goods being produced. Also, I haven't met many who didn't talk of 'having their own armorshop' or 'weapons dealer' or whatever their respective profession would have. I think, imho, that alot became a crafter not only because we found we actually liked sitting down and seeing if we can make an even better item that we did yesterday, or better than our buddy just did, but also with the idea of having our own shop, not just making the armor to sell to a middleman.
Please, dont take this wrong as it's not a slam against people who like being merchants. You like being the middleman, cutting a deal, interacting with the suppliers and the buyers and that's cool. But I think some crafters resent being forced to pick up a second elite profession just to have a simple shop. I"m talkin simple as in 2 npc vendors that they had to create over and over again till they got one that suited them because they didnt pick up the other merchant boxes that let them customize their vendor. We just wanted a way to put our stuff up for sale so people could check it out when we weren't online...like the bazaar only without the million other items for people to sift through before they actually see ours and without the 3k cap.
I think the original poster was speaking from this point of view, and overlooking the people that want to be actual merchants. I wonder though how many would pick up the profession if 1 npc vendor and getting on the global map were moved to master artisan? That's pretty much the only reason most of my crafter friends grabbed it, I just grabbed novice to get the cheaper vendor cause 2500 every day sucks for a big box. My buddy who sells the weapons in the shop got on global and after that sales were pretty steady. I think he may go master Merchant, though I dunno what he wants from it exactly as it's just us and the one shop. I will say though that he purchased a second account so that he could have a regular character since all his skill points were pretty much shot, as I am doing soon as well.
Basically I think the crafters who want a shop accept that that means they want to be a merchant and so we grab the skills and move on. The crafters that dont want an actual shop can find the people who want to be actual merchants and both are happy about it. As a crafter I'd like it better if I didnt have to find points for merchant just to have a shop, but they made it it's own profession and that's how it is. I think the original poster assumed that most people dont want merchant as a profession, they just want to make their respective items and have their own shop as part of the deal, and only a small percentage of players want to be true merchants so it's unfair to force the greater majority into it. I kinda tend to agree as even if it didnt take it's whole skill tree you could still have a shop and be a pure merchant just without a title as such, but I think they'll add more features to flesh out the class so perhaps I'll even find myself mastering it someday.
I thinks its easier if we look at Merchant as Elite Selling. I'll explain.
We all know Artisans can make Armor, Guns, Harvesters, Food, Clothing..... but, they have a limited way to do it. People take the Elite form of these proffesions so they can become the best at the chosen feild they want to follow and are allowed to make everything possible in that feild.
So these crafters make master and have perfected feild. Now comes the hard part.Do they want to carft or do they want to sell? See selling is in itself a Feild that can also be perfected. They have to make a choice, they have to decide if they will give up non crafting/selling skills to become a master at selling.
We that have chosen to Master the Merchant line do so to be the best at selling crafted wares. Merchant is the perfect sub-class for players who want to be a pure crafting class.. we give up other skills for it.
Merchant is one of the 1st Elite/Elite forms in this game. You are a master of selling. If you tie that in with a Master Craft skill..your are an Elite/Elite class. A Master of Selling your Master Crafts.
To take the Merchants skills and give them to Master Artisans, is the same as taking CH skills and giving them to Master Scout, or Ranger skills and giving them to Master Scout, or Commando skills and giving them to a 1st lvl Master class. Well you get my point.
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I happen to agree with the original poster.
1) to go from novice merchant->master merchant you don't have to "do" anything (just put up a vendor and put in money). The only challenge is giving up the skill points (thus the skill point sink).
2) With all the problems in this class, there are only one or two boxes in the entire tree that are worthwhile (global add, additional vendors). I would gladly bypass all the efficiency and diversity ones in exchange for the skill points if I could. Maintenence on things are not that bad anyway, skill points are what is at a premium.
Also I found his point about merchants being an "add-on" to elite artisans is also what I found in my experience. Every merchant that I've talked to is simply in it to more effectively hawk their own wares. This is a problem, because if you are a "merchantless-artisan" and want to work with a merchant, working with such an "add-on merchant" obviously brings up a big conflict of interest especially if there is any overlap in your and their skill trees. Why would the expend any effort hawking your wares when they could be hawking their own?
I'd like to see them (the devs) decide whether merchant is a "real" profession or an "add on" to artisan. If it is a "real" profession, then advancing through it should be much tougher, and the rewards much bigger. For example, don't give ANY xp for simply having a vendor. Do I get artisan experience for simply owning a crafting tool? that is just rediculous. Make the whole thing based on transactions. Then instead of silly stuff like efficiency and ad barking and diversity, make some "real" incentives like more lots, or higher capacity vendors, or higher object limits inside a house, stuff like that. Things that would actually be of big benefit to people.
If they decide that merchant should be an "add on" class, then just roll this stuff into the "business" branch of artisan. For example:
business 1: npc vendor + store sign
business 2: 3 npc vendors + 3 store signs
business 3: 6 npc vendors + 6 store signs
business 4: global ads (although I have to admit the global ad space would get pretty crowded, lol)
master artisan: ability to add clothing to vendors, reduced fees.
Currently those are the only things of any value in the merchant tree anyway, and they would fit nicely into the business branch of artisan.
JTGAlpha, but this was his point, and this is what is valuable about his argument. Merchants in this game, in general ARE NOT middlemen. They are their own suppliers. Do you doubt this? Just look around. Walk around the outskirts of a large city and see how many buildings have npc vendors and signs. Then do a search on "merchant" in the city. You will see that there is a huge disparity. Virtually no merchants, tons of artisans, tons of NPC vendors and stores. Hmm, couldit be that there are virtually no *real* merchants?
Merchant is being used primarily as in "add on" to artisan, instead of its own thing. This seems to be partially by design, as merchant is the most trivial class to obtain and master, all one really has to do is fork over the skill points, and *boom* you are a master merchant. What did you do to obtainthis? nothing, just gave up skill points.
I apologize to the merchants here that ARE merchants. From what I see many of you are, but you have to acknowledge that you are in the very tiny minority and are not representative of your "profession" at large.
JTGAlpha wrote:
2) The biggest boon to the game merchants provide, the one many people overlook, is that merchants are middlemen.
As a master merchant and a novice smuggler, I have to disagree with the thread author. I have given up all of my artisan skills, with the exception of the business tree. While I do make some cash selling spice, the REAL money I make comes from selling other people's stuff. In particular, I clean up selling NobilRisse medical supplies in my shop outside Anchorhead. I dont craft any of the stuff, they give it to me, they suggest a retail price, I make the final pricing decision and I take a percentage of the profit. In addition, another vendor in the shop is dedicated to selling odds and ends (actually the name of the vendor). Any PA members who have stuff they want to get rid of cheap can sell on this vendor. I keep a small cut for operating expenses, and the rest goes to the guild.
My real money is made selling NobilRisse meds, and while I am by no means their only retailer, we do enough business to keep me happy. AND NO CRAFTING!
This kind of arrangement requires that I know my business partners well, and can keep the relationship going, but that's what being a merchant is all about.
Hey, yeah, they've got their problems, Roy, but that doesn't make them a skill point sink. And a merchant CAN be a pure merchant. I'm not quite sure where you're getting they can't. They need someone to supply goods to sell, but everybody needs somebody sometimes, unless they spend points in other professions which is why we've all GOT enough to spend on mastering two elite or hybrid professions at least, and some left over. So I still don't see how you "CAN'T" be a pure merchant. Nor do I see why you would be, anymore than I see why ANYONE would be a pure ANYTHING. You can buy lots of skills in lots of professions, and that can only help, so why would anyone be pure anything?
Merchant has some broken parts. It also has one major flaw (can't set up shop in cities), but name me a profession right now that doesn't have either if not both of those traits? Smuggler's gottem. Everyone's gottem! You're getting the response you're getting because you just walked in to the profession and called it worthless, which is patently untrue. No profession in this game is anymore worthless than another. It's inflamatory if not outright trolling. You want a more civil discourse, you should try and begin more civilly.
I don't think there are many merchants who think that not being able to set up shop in an NPC city is preventing them from doing business.
There are many pure or semi-pure merchants around. They range from huge guild operations to tiny shops with half empty vendors.
Given a choice of creating a true merchant class by removing vendors from Artisans or removing the merchant class alltogether the choice is easy and it certainly doesn't involve deleting an entire profession. So hopefully they can come up with something less drastic than those two choices.
My theory is this. People enjoy going into a couple of shops and buying everything they need. They don't enjoy running around all day trying to find the 3 things they need by searching half the stores in the Galaxy. Merchants can and do provide this service (and others).
A smart crafter doesn't spend their skill points or their time selling their merchandise. They get a good merchant or 10 by their side and they let those folks worry about stocking, and advertising and dealing with general questions about the merchandise while they concentrate on making their goods and having a little fun in the game. The best ones don't even make many personal sales. They refer everyone to the merchant shop(s) to buy. This allows them to NOT have to carry their wares on them and to gradually get people into the habit of going and checking the vendors first before bombarding them with questions about what is available.
No one person should try to do everything in this game themselves. It is a mistake and leads to early burnout in the game. Operating a merchant shop is stressful enough without adding resource collection, factory headaches, and crafting R & D on top of it. Interdependance is a GOOD thing! It gives you time to do what you enjoy and others time to do what they enjoy. Don't be afraid of interacting with other PLAYERS in this game. That is the point of an MMORPG anyways. If you do everything yourself you might as well be playing the Single Player version of SWG.