CUEmu - Thread Posts

Sepen

Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:53 pm

Hero_DarkJedi wrote:

2) Monopolies ruin new crafters gaming experience.

What is all this talk about monopolies? I've seen player after player say "this is why the nerf is happening or needs to happen". WHERE did the devs ever say anyting about monopolies?

I'd like to address my opinion on it, but at this point this "reason" looks like some forum-poster-created "reason".

Someone please enlighten me...

Thanks,

Martek

itysko

Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:13 pm

#15

Great point!!!! My AS will only being selling full suits of armor just like you said! This is complete moronic behavior...but...i don't think the devs care what we think =(

sorry to see this game in its current state
RIP Salomon

Hero_DarkJedi

Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:26 pm

#16

Sepen wrote:

Hero_DarkJedi wrote:

2) Monopolies ruin new crafters gaming experience.

What is all this talk about monopolies? I've seen player after player say "this is why the nerf is happening or needs to happen". WHERE did the devs ever say anyting about monopolies?

I'd like to address my opinion on it, but at this point this "reason" looks like some forum-poster-created "reason".

Someone please enlighten me...

Thanks,

Martek

Go read "way" back when this came up last time ... one of the Dev's listed 3 reasons why they are going to limit vendors ... one of the listed reason was monopolies. There is other things in other places ... but trust me on this ... I have been here a looooong time ... monopoly busting is one of the major reasons for the size being at 110 as it is now on TC.

'=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='
Hero--[Hero Built]Weapons
~ ~M a s t e rW e a p o n S m i t hS i n c e8 / 1 8 / 0 3~ ~
[Coronet Mall, Corellia: 910, -4690]-[EPOC Mall, Naboo: -3950, 3885]
[Freedom City, Dantooine: -6040, 6160]-[Sandy Hills, Tatooine: 363, 3218]
Resource and Loot Drop Off: [Hero's Workshop, South Coronet, Corellia: 400, -6050]

SunLao

Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:35 pm

#17

Hero_DarkJedi wrote:
So ... the new crafters will indeed pick up the slack ... they will be tickled pink they can actually play a crafter and get business. This is fantastic for them.

Long time players will stick with higher end crafters such as myself, who will deliver really good weapons ... but they will come in crates and they will not be cheap ... but with crates of 5 each I can stock 500 weapons even with a 100 item limit. With crates of 10 I can stock 1,000 items.

New players will be forced to buy second rate weapons from new crafters ... and that is what this all boils down to ... and whether or not that is good for the overall health of the economy.

I hate to burst YOUR bubble...but new crafters grind to master...they don't sell a whole heck of a lot on the way there.

"Wait for the Combat Balance."- random red name since Nov. 2003
Diogenes Noslen - The Meatshield Mayor!
- Shooting pistols in SWG since June 26 27, 2003 -
House Paladin

BlackEdge

Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:40 pm

#18

Hero_DarkJedi wrote:

Hate to burst your bubble ...

1) This nerf will happen ... why?

2) Monopolies ruin new crafters gaming experience. Can you please pull your head out of the sky? It's IMPOSSIBLE to create a monopoly in SWG. I'm a small time master chef, and I have NP selling my stuff. I do it as a hobby, and I put just as much attention into my food as any big time crafters, just in a smaller quantity. I don't see any monopoly. You know what's going to hurt the new crafters? Recursive macros. As we all know it now, maste professions are the only one that has any successful chance of actually selling things (new crafters won't have a hard time selling things to new players, since they're new). The smart new crafters will understand how to use the recursive macros, and then there isn't a problem. I've helped new crafters a lot telling them how to do it, and it makes their job easier.

Your whole post is basically about scarcity ... but you don't talk about how scarcity will open up the market to new crafters.

The Dev's want to open up the market to new crafters ... scarcity is how they are going to do it. Why do you think they are doing this along with the removing empty vendors from the map thing? cause once this goes live, there will be 2x-10x the number of vendors on the map instantly.

And when the scarcity starts to get to critical mass, along comes the new crafters ... and what are they going to make? 2500 credit scout blasters :-)

Personally ... I will pick my most popular items ... put them in crates of 5 and 10 ... and sell them like that. This will leave a nice sized market available in my neck of the woods.

So ... the new crafters will indeed pick up the slack ... they will be tickled pink they can actually play a crafter and get business. This is fantastic for them.

Long time players will stick with higher end crafters such as myself, who will deliver really good weapons ... but they will come in crates and they will not be cheap ... but with crates of 5 each I can stock 500 weapons even with a 100 item limit. With crates of 10 I can stock 1,000 items.

New players will be forced to buy second rate weapons from new crafters ... and that is what this all boils down to ... and whether or not that is good for the overall health of the economy.

I could very easily argue how it will, in the end, be better for the economy. Short term is not going to be pretty ... but long term it will be better.

I also seriously doubt they are going to leave it at 110 items per vendor ... but that is just my educated guess having been around a very long time.

Pokko - Council Member of Star-Gazers
Professions mastered to unlock: 31 (Merchant) July 16, 2004
Professions mastered after unlock: 32 (Master BH)

-Precision-

Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:43 pm

#19

If the vendor limits are put in place, the changes are pretty simple when it comes to supply and demand. Supply and Demand have been stable on all servers for a long time. With the limits, supply will be cut drastically while demand remains the same. Well, unless all the players saying they are going to cancel their accounts happens, then demand may actually decrease.

Precision Industries +12 Experimentation Weapons & Composite Armor
50 different Weapons, 40% Stun 67% Base & 72% Kinetic/Energy Armor always in stock!
/waypoint -5400 3434 once in Theed Naboo - vendors 900m from Theed Starport!
The greatest gift I have to offer to the SWG community is the following screenshot on how to
express yourself concerning CSR tickets, enjoy:
http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=209254

Hero_DarkJedi

Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:55 pm

#20

Enix_Dayspring wrote:

Hero

The problem is that in reality, 90% of people who become crafters don't really give a crap about making a good product. They're worried about making the millions or billions that long time, dedicated, succesful crafters do.

You are correct ....

My shop is located in the same zone as Coronet, so I get tons of tells from people working weaponsmith wanting training. I can tell you with absolute certainty that 9 our of 10 players who grind through weaponsmithwith theintent to sell weapons (not just hologrinding) dont have what it takes to be succesful, even if they were the only weaponsmith on the server.

Everybody starts off as a n00b crafter ... some can catch on, some don't have the brains or the inclination.

The problem isn't that bigger weaponsmiths have a monopoly. The problem is they are 1) too lazy to learn what it takes to make a good weapon, 2) too lazy to track down older, better resources that arent spawning right now, and 3) too greedy to ever develop a customer base because theyre charging 3 times more than I am with half the quality.

I think you are to pesimistic in statement. But let's break it down.

A) "Too Lazy" ... Those crafters are going to die on the vine ... but I would not say that is 90% of the new smiths :-)

B) "Track down older resource" ... now why should they *have* to do that? You see this is EXACTLY what this hinges on. If this patch goes through, as is, the new crafters will not *have* to track down all the good stuff. They will be able to mine what is available, make weapons, and have them sell. As they look at other weapons they will start to *figure* it out.

C) "Charging 3 times more" ... Why? maybe because of B? where they had to pay outrageous prices on resources that you and I mined when they were practically free? That is the vicious circle I have spoken about.

Question: Why should a player need to "buy" their way into a profession at the cost of 10mil to 20mil credits?

The problem is there are lots of players that are just in it for the bucks. They see alot of rich weaponsmiths and decide they should be making millions too, so they set up their second account and do weaponsmithing when they arent camping Acklay or Krayts or working on their FOTM.

There is nothing wrong with wishing to make a lot of credits in a game ... there is something wrong with requiring you to "have" a lot of credits to "make" a lot of credits.

What is going to happen with these vendor changes is that the number of REAL crafters is going to drop significantly because it simply isnt going to be worth the bother anymore. Yes, some will continue on selling high end weapons by the crate (Ive started several factory runs for this purpose already). The level of variety is going to drop. The ironic thing is that those crafters who stay in and just sell high end weapons but at drastically inflated prices (Drastically inflated because our weapons will be so much better than what the lazy/greedy players discussed above are making) will probably be making much more money.

Now you hit upon a key element that this will bring into play in the gaming environment. The quality differences in products. This has been a thorn in the Dev's side for a long time. This game was designed to have fluxuating qualities of goods. Right now it does not ... the only fluxuation is "better and better". Now of course that is good for the consumer on the front end, but at the sacrifice of new crafters that might "stick" and be good crafters ... if only they were given a chance.

If this goes through like it is now ... or close to it ... that is what will happen. You won't see every BH with the best array of weapons and armour on the server ... there will be uber d00ds that took the time and pay the credits for the uber stuff ... and then the newer players that will get a rid on the "short bus" as the d00d take them to school.

And through all this, those lazy/greedy players will STILL only ever sell Scout Blasters and E11s. Because then we really will have a monopoly on high end weapons.

Really? you mean you are only going to stop making 2 weapons? and still try to stock all the rest on the meger 110 items? (100 for me as I am 3.4.4.4)??

No ... I would imagine most of us higher end smiths will stop making all single APH weapons, some of the feed weapons, and some of the lessor popular non-ranged weapon (2h-Axe, 2h-Cleaver, Ryyk, etc, etc).

As the actually make an economy selling 10-20 weapons ... they will mine better resources and learn the trade and become decent smiths. Or they won't and they go bust and quit.

So the end result is -

Adventure players now get an additional several hours of down time searching for stocked vendors (especially low to mid level or poor adventure players who dont get to the reliable high quality weapons or cant afford them).

See, you tainted something here ... you said "high quality" ... sorry ... if you want the best it's going to cost you something ... and not all the folks need *high quality* and will settle for less and maybe it takes a few extra shots to bring down that quenker ... oh well.

Low to Mid level weapons will SUCK

Well ... as compared to what? a broken weapon that won't work? A "high quality" weapon or armour or anything is not "guaranteed" in a game like this.

Many crafters quit crafting because its just not worth the trouble anymore

Maybe they will ... and guess what ... new crafters will fill their shoes. I am sure that if I retired tomorrow along would come 3 new crafters to fill my shoes ... well ... in a new economy yes ... in the current economy? my volume would get swallowed up by other long term crafters.

Those who stay in actually make more money because the cost of high end weapons is inflated and crated, so they have to buy more.

Actually ... overall I don't expect my volume to increase much, except for the panic buying. Most of my customers buy several weapons at once ... so now they will have to buy in increments of 5 ... and what impact does that have? not much as they will be buying crates "further" apart ... so in the end my "per day income" is not going to go drastically upward because of this.

Futhermore, I will be losing all the lower sales ... like scouts and dlt's and dh17's and other things of that nature ...

But if this is to much of a pain, I will probably raise prices to premium product at a premium price and lessor toons will not be able to afford, nor run, my vendors ... meaning the elite clientle will aways find weapons there.

Sure sounds like a great plan to me.

I am looking on the *bright* side of things ... I have serious issues with 110 items ... but outside of tailors I don't think vendors storing thousands of items are actually good for the overall community. I spoke about this in an "eclipse->stryker" thread once upon a time. For those of you not on Eclipse ... Styker was a smith that ended up tooo big and affected the entire community.

Basically ... the short story is he made top-of-the-line weapons... madeto much money that he hit the caps ... figured it was better to store credits as resources ... so would put out unlimited contracts on the "best of server" spawns ... most all of the contract miners would sell to him ... allowing for him tonot only turn hissurplus credits into resources, but also have the best resources to make virtually unlimited numbers of weapons ... which turned into more credits which he converted into resources.

That isabout the time the Dev's started looking at this problem and I think his modelshowed how the current system could be exploited ifplayers choose to work itlike he did. I believe we own this Nerf to Styker :-) ...Had toblame it on him, but I truly believe it was his activities that really brought this situation to the Dev'sconscience. He was a good enough guy ... played straight up ...and played to win.

In the end this is a game ... and those that play it the best will have the advantage ... those folks that make the trip to my reclusive outlet might just find it stocked all the time ...but then again ... they might find an 50k entrance fee for the privildege ofviewing the wares :-) ... don't know exactly what I will do ...I have to see what happens out there :-)

'=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='
Hero--[Hero Built]Weapons
~ ~M a s t e rW e a p o n S m i t hS i n c e8 / 1 8 / 0 3~ ~
[Coronet Mall, Corellia: 910, -4690]-[EPOC Mall, Naboo: -3950, 3885]
[Freedom City, Dantooine: -6040, 6160]-[Sandy Hills, Tatooine: 363, 3218]
Resource and Loot Drop Off: [Hero's Workshop, South Coronet, Corellia: 400, -6050]

Hero_DarkJedi

Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:00 pm

#21

SunLao wrote:

Hero_DarkJedi wrote:

So ... the new crafters will indeed pick up the slack ... they will be tickled pink they can actually play a crafter and get business. This is fantastic for them.

Long time players will stick with higher end crafters such as myself, who will deliver really good weapons ... but they will come in crates and they will not be cheap ... but with crates of 5 each I can stock 500 weapons even with a 100 item limit. With crates of 10 I can stock 1,000 items.

New players will be forced to buy second rate weapons from new crafters ... and that is what this all boils down to ... and whether or not that is good for the overall health of the economy.

I hate to burst YOUR bubble...but new crafters grind to master...they don't sell a whole heck of a lot on the way there.

Right back'atcha ... once they grind to master they still got to make sales ... and unless they bought their way in with 10mil - 15mil credits worth of resources they aren't touching my existing market.

But if I am forced to reduce my line that gives them a "place" to sell into. Just cause they are masters doesn't mean they make "Master Quality" products ... and they will be tickled pick to grind up and have a market for their Scouts and DLT20's and DH17's and E11's and what not ... tickled freakin pink ... sure they will make higher certed weapons, but those require harder to find resources and probably won't be able to compete on a quality level. (unless they buy their way in, and we are not talking about those folks).

So ... I hate to burst your bubble ... but your statement doesn't have any impact on mine ... it's actually worthless input ... it's shows that you don't grasp the big picture cause you are mired in non-essential details that only cloud your vision.

'=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='
Hero--[Hero Built]Weapons
~ ~M a s t e rW e a p o n S m i t hS i n c e8 / 1 8 / 0 3~ ~
[Coronet Mall, Corellia: 910, -4690]-[EPOC Mall, Naboo: -3950, 3885]
[Freedom City, Dantooine: -6040, 6160]-[Sandy Hills, Tatooine: 363, 3218]
Resource and Loot Drop Off: [Hero's Workshop, South Coronet, Corellia: 400, -6050]

Hero_DarkJedi

Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:08 pm

#22

BlackEdge wrote:

Hero_DarkJedi wrote:

Hate to burst your bubble ...

1) This nerf will happen ... why?

2) Monopolies ruin new crafters gaming experience. Can you please pull your head out of the sky? It's IMPOSSIBLE to create a monopoly in SWG. I'm a small time master chef, and I have NP selling my stuff. I do it as a hobby, and I put just as much attention into my food as any big time crafters, just in a smaller quantity. I don't see any monopoly. You know what's going to hurt the new crafters? Recursive macros. As we all know it now, maste professions are the only one that has any successful chance of actually selling things (new crafters won't have a hard time selling things to new players, since they're new). The smart new crafters will understand how to use the recursive macros, and then there isn't a problem. I've helped new crafters a lot telling them how to do it, and it makes their job easier.

Recursive macros are only going to hurt the grinders ... so that is a mute point.

And monoplies are possible in this game as I have witnessed one on our server ... please see aforementioned post above this one concerning an individual named stryker.

More importantly ... in this instance we are not talking about a monopoly of 1 person ... we are talking about having a situation where thousands of players are buying from just a handfull of players in each crafting profession.

The Dev's believe this is a problem ... and they are correct.

Sure some professions are easier to break into then others ... well DUH.

Just as this 110 limit is not going to hurt some professions as much ... well DUH.

Doesn't change the facts though, and I don't need to argue with you whether monopolies do or can exist ...

The nerf bat has been swung ... and monopolies *are* one of the reasons they are doing this ... they have stated it before ... and if you want to play "ostrich" and hide your head in the sand ... then so be it ...

I am just looking at this as if it already happened and deciding how to "adapt" ... after all ... survival is all about adaptation.

I only bring in about 1.3mil credits per day right now so I don't think I qualify as a monopoly ... or part of the Weaponsmith monopoly on our server ... but you can count the "serious" weaonsmiths on 1 hand on our server and I am sure we do at least 60% of the sales on our server. 60% is a monopoly cartel.

Like it or not ... limits will be in ... the question is just how much of a problem will it be.

'=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='
Hero--[Hero Built]Weapons
~ ~M a s t e rW e a p o n S m i t hS i n c e8 / 1 8 / 0 3~ ~
[Coronet Mall, Corellia: 910, -4690]-[EPOC Mall, Naboo: -3950, 3885]
[Freedom City, Dantooine: -6040, 6160]-[Sandy Hills, Tatooine: 363, 3218]
Resource and Loot Drop Off: [Hero's Workshop, South Coronet, Corellia: 400, -6050]

Dracass

Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:08 pm

#23

ZinaTheMaker wrote:

...

Player Interaction and Convienence:

As this game is real time, our time ingame is also limited. People want to go have fun. People want to go hunt with their new t21, or go to a party dressed in their new gown. People do not want to spend the majority of their time running around to vendor after vendor and not finding the item(s) they are searching for.
...

Zina, yer post only supports the reason why this change will occur.

The statement above be an example. Though customers do not like it, SOE does. Time be on the side of the SOE marketin' machine. If it takes people longer to get thin's that they need, that's less time they're gain' xp and money. That means people will have to spend more time to get the xp and credits they want. Longer times, means more months of play, more months, means more revenue.

The Item Limitation will happen. Its a matter of figurin' out what the proper number be.

I do see 110 as a very real possibility. It has many good benefits towards it.

Sign off,
Dracass The'Heartless

Dracass

Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:12 pm

#24

BlackEdge wrote:

It's IMPOSSIBLE to create a monopoly in SWG.

Perhaps ye should take a look around at the other galaxies.

Sign off,
Dracass The'Heartless

Tunturi

Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:12 pm

#25

Someone mentioned it hard to find venders that actually have stuff in them. To me the main cause of this is people who quit the game and put like million dollars in there maintance of there house before they leave. Now these guys are not even playing but they got prime real estate for there shop which is empty. To me the Dev's need to make it so if u cancel your account everything not in the Bank Deposit box will be destroyed. By doing this you allow the crafters that are actually playing to get prime spots for there shop (which is basicaly right outside Coronet and Theed). Do this and you will have morefull venders close togeather instead of being spread out... Thus less time looking for venders.

Personaly, i think itwould be cool if they setup a area between where houses can be seutp and where the NPC city is that only merchant tents could be placed. This would allow for a merchant district.

Taury

Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:18 pm

#26

I watch my friends drop out of this game like flies on Ahazi...I listen to a guild gripe about combat unbalance...instead of being negative and feeding into it I got a 2nd character...Zoe-Jane who is currently Master Artisan Master Architect Master Amorsmith soon to be dropped to Master Tailor and 1 colum off from Master Merchant. This nerf will kill me.

All the time I have requests to see what Archs sell. I have to have at least one of every kind of furniture/furnishing on the vendor....plus I have to have multilple harvesters houses guild halls and many other city structures to offer. Daily I have TONS of requests for these items. Taur-y was a Master Smugglar and I still sell these items under Zoe. Master Tailor again people what to see whats offered and want different colors to see and pick and choose an outfit. They dont have time to seek out someone to cloth them and many wouldnt anyways.

So the game limits me to 60 items on 1 vendor and how ever many on 6 vendors....what happens? Chaos....No one wants to flip through many vendors looking for different items. People want convience and organization. So take away our vendor limits what will we use to sell with? Sure we can go to the public baz...and thats fine. But public baz is not offered in player cities so that will take away from our sales. I dont want to hassle with going to Coronet or Theed daily to post items. And we are only offered 25 there. Between my 3 characters that gives me 75 items to sell but I want it all kept with one player. And I pay my fees monthly every month to play my game my way.

In less this is a server storage problem then why mess with merchant. It isnt going to cut down on the empty vendors. Empty vendors will now just hold storage items or worthless items we dont want. And the grind will be over so no one is going to rush out and grind out merchant.

So **edit** is SOE doing to us now. Combat is messed up...artisan soon to be messed up and oh my 3 rd character is a dancer...take macros away and she's messed up too...what else is there left to do? I am pretty pissed. I dont care about being a jedi but I love the social fun of this game but if that is all im here for I sure as hell dont have to pay $45 a month to chat...when I can do it for free else where.

So SOE leave our **edit** alone. There is NO reason for you to come in with your unreasonable demands and mess with this game. You have screwed up more then you have fixed. Fix whats broken before you break the rest and are broke your selves because no reasonable person will play a completely broke game.

Yea...I am pissed...and ready to pay up on the mall I set up and walk away....toss my $45 back into my bank account and find a new way to spend my time.

One pissed off person....from Ahazi

Taur-y

Zoe-Jane

Zayn

<SHDWS>

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---------------VETERANS OF AHAZI ---------------

-------------- TAURY ---------------

---------------[RIVERLANDMALL JUST OUTSIDE CNET] ---------------

(940 -3540)

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Thread: Post-patch SWG Economy how it will be...(and why the nerf wont happen)