Merchant Archive
Thread: I don't like vendor search from bazaars
As a Side note it occurs to me that the designers anticipated a reduction in the number of crafters post CU and wanted to make sure that merchandise could still be found. I'm probably giving them way too much credit for forsight on that, but it does seem to have had that effect.
Vastar wrote:
Mild7 wrote:
Suggested changes.
1. Remove the feature.
Nooooo... move it, but don't remove it.
That applies here. The minute that the in development article appeared about this feature we were doomed to be shackled with it. Which is why I have always argued that global, game shaking ideas like that should be vetted to the Correspondents first so that controversies like this can be discussed in a smaller more controlled environment before unleashing the idea to the world and creating a firestorm.
Its too late to get rid of it and it was from the start of the announcement. The best we can do now is try to find ways to make it better.
Fair enough.
To be equally fair, there are some reasons why the GVWS is a Good Thing. This is probably most easily done by going through the excellent list of anti-GWVS points:
Mild7 wrote:
1. Advertising 3 is now much less valuable. Being a long time vendor means my vendor was near the top of the planet map listings. Now customers can bypass the planet map and just search every vendor in the galaxy.
This is a fair concern. GWVS does diminish the value of being a long-time vendor operator, there's no question about it. That's a problem because it reduces the cost of being a fly-by-night, in-it-for-a-quick-buck operator that gives us lifers a bad name.
A minor tweak might help: What if the vendor search results had some way to highlight which vendors were listed on the Planetary Map? Highlighting the result line would work; if that's toodifficult a UI change, add a field like the Premium category that gets a star if the vehdor is listed (or, even more interesting, a numeric ranking based on the position on the Planetary Map's list of vendors in that category).
2. The vendor search has reduced profit margins. It is now harder for merchants with prime vendor locations and or well stocked vendors to charge a premium for convienience. Customers can find a vendor with a lower price in any corner of the universe.
How much has this reduced profits, really? I'll get to price shopping more in item 4, but in terms of charging fortravel convenience or stocking, how much did these really add to the bottom line prior to GWVS? Was it something we should have been doing in the first place?
Furthermore, ifa customer decides that lower prices are more important than shorter travel times or vendors stuffed with hundreds of the same thing, who are we to force them to pay up anyway? Where is it written that we're entitled to X profit no matter what happens?
If an individualcrafter in Timbuktu canlist10 units ofItem Zfor less thana PA-backed crafter just outside of Coronet who's offering 1000 units of Item Z, and players are willing to travel to the individual crafter's shop or tent for it, I don't see that the crafter near Coronet has any room to complain. If people aren't buying her stuff, then she needs tocompete on price or qualityrather thantrying to find some way to make playersignore the more distant sellers.
"Pay no attention to that crafter behind the curtain!" 
3. I'm not sure at what skill level merchants can list their vendors on the bazaar, but it should be master merchant. There is almost no skill point or credit cost to have your products listed right next to master merchants on any bazaar in the galaxy. This does not seem right.
Hmm. I'm slightly conflicted on this one.
On the one hand, I think Merchants generally andMaster Merchants specificallyare in dire need of some developer love.Masters should have activeabilities that make mastery worth having.
On the other hand,Master Merchantsalready have some abilities that are nicefor a real dedicated sales-crafter to have, primarily additional vendors andlower structure andvendor maintenance costs. So there's already an advantage to Masters that other players don't have.
That being the case, I'm inclined not to mind very muchthat Novice Merchant X can list items right next to Master Merchant Y, since Master Merchant Y is already getting some goodies as a benefit of mastery. (However, see my comments on item 1: Advertising 3 ought to mean something special.)
4. Vendor search is an undercutters dream. They can find the lowest price in the galaxy in just a few minutes and undercut it.
This is the big one. With GVWS, there's more price competition.
How is this a problem?
If anything, this actually favors the big boys. If the small player offers Item Z at some lowball price, he's going to run out of stock, at which point he can't sell Item Z at any price. Who will players go to then? Why, the PA mall that stocks a jillion units of Item Z at their higher price. They'll easily make up the "lost" sales on volume.
Furthermore, with their access to more harvester lots, large-scalesales crafterscan usually afford to underprice anyone. If they don't want to because they're out to earn a higher profit margin, well, that's their choice and there's no point in complaining about being undersold.
Finally, GWVS is a positive boon to buyers, and good for the entire player economy. By publishing information on prices, every seller is motivated to cut costs and/or add quality. That means more affordable and better goods, which is ultimatelybetter for everyone who participates in the SWG economy.
We can discuss other ways that GWVS could be implemented, but I can't see how it's worth doing at all if it doesn't include pricing information.
Suggested changes.
4. give master merchants mobile, temporary vendors placable in NPC and player cities.
Hmm. I could live with this, but it's got a couple of drawbacks:
- more brainlessspam in Theed and Coronet
- not an "active" skill
Here's an alternative: Give Master Merchants 200 additionalpersonal inventory slots (or a special Master Merchant Bag of Holding or some such thing).
That way you can travel to wherever the players are and sell many things.It still generates more sales spam, but at least this is an active sales skill instead of one that just kind of happens while we twiddle our thumbs (or whatever it is that your species of choice uses for a thumb). Another potential downside is that there'd be some players who'd master Merchant just for the extra inventory slots... but really,how many people would want to spend the skill points necessary?
Overall, I think GWVS is doing more good than harm, even in its current form. Before we all vote to kill it or change it, let's fairly analyze the good results it's having as well as the bad.
--Flatfingers
It's simple. The devs sit around and say 'which professions are too much of a bother to put into this game when membership drops to the point that it can only survive as a Playstation game, since we're only going to want Jedi, Bounty Hunters, Riflemen and Pistoleers anyway at that point?'
Merchant ... Creature Handler ... Doctor ... Entertainer ... Ranger ... Squad Leader ....
Then they sit down and say 'how do we drive the people in those professions out of them so they re-spec instead of just quitting and starting another game? How do we make them annoying enough to drop the profession but not the game?'
And you look at what's happened to Merchant, Creature Handler, Doctor, Entertainer, Ranger, Squad Leader .......
*takes off tinfoil hat*
But really, the whole bazaar mechanism is so fouled up and broken and useless that they should rechange the spelling to Bizarre and be done with it.
"2. The vendor search has reduced profit margins. It is now harder for merchants with prime vendor locations and or well stocked vendors to charge a premium for convienience. "
I knew when i read this subject line someone would prove they were a greedy assshat, and thus it has come to pass.
If in fact your vendors are in such a prime location, then people would GLADLY go there regardless; your location hasnt become less prime because of the bazaar listing; it is just as convenient to walk there... your fleecing of the player population however, has.
The consumer now is more educated about price listings; and this is more than likely the reason you dont like it. You cant overprice your goods and expect to compete, unless your goods are "the best available at themost competitiveprice"
Of the various benefits that the vendors provide there are three primary and very important ones;
1. It ensures younever come across an unstocked vendor, which has always been a problem.
2. It ensures that merchants who overcharge, will not sell their items first.
3. It gives a very good chance to those merchants who are NOT in prime locations.
In the end, if I want to pay 30k more per item I may still go to a vendor in a good location, but usually I will take the one with the lower price if the products are equal.
Also there is another thing to consider; the GCW effectively cuts off Correllia for imperials, therefore we are subject to naboo, or other planets. The strong imperial presence on tatooine and nabooeffectively cuts many rebels off from what would otherwise be open markets.
Since going on leave can be an extra pain in the ass since recruiters are only incertain cities, it shouldnt be necessary to do so every time you need to buy an item.
guessit wrote:
I knew when i read this subject line someone would prove they were a greedy assshat, and thus it has come to pass.
If in fact your vendors are in such a prime location, then people would GLADLY go there regardless; your location hasnt become less prime because of the bazaar listing; it is just as convenient to walk there ... your fleecing of the player population however, has.
The consumer now is more educated about price listings; and this is more than likely the reason you dont like it. You cant overprice your goods and expect to compete, unless your goods are "the best available at the most competitive price"
"Prime location" meant that you had set up shop in a place folks were likely to be shopping. The convenience for the customer was that they didn't have to walk all over looking for what they needed. Now, they simply don't have to regardless of what the Merchant does. The downside for the Merchants (well, I'm sure there were exceptions) is that they can no longer gain an edge by providing that convenience since it's now given to anyone with Business III. There's also no incentive to keep a well stocked vendor as people will see your stuff (whenever you feel like stocking) on the bazaar when they want to buy, no need to rely on reputation. But, blah blah blah, this was all gone over sooo much it's ridiculous. The bottom line is that, just like decreased shuttle times and other things that are supposed to make everything more fun, we're left with a more shallow game as a result.
As for "greedy assshat", we're merchants. What would a merchant strive for other than maximum profits? If a certain Merchant makes better use of the tools we're all given than another and is more effective as a result, does that make him a "greedy assshat"?
Mild7 wrote:
And here's why
1. Advertising 3 is now much less valuable. Being a long time vendor means my vendor was near the top of the planet map listings. Now customers can bypass the planet map and just search every vendor in the galaxy.
2. The vendor search has reduced profit margins. It is now harder for merchants with prime vendor locations and or well stocked vendors to charge a premium for convienience. Customers can find a vendor with a lower price in any corner of the universe.
3. I'm not sure at what skill level merchants can list their vendors on the bazaar, but it should be master merchant. There is almost no skill point or credit cost to have your products listed right next to master merchants on any bazaar in the galaxy. This does not seem right.
4. Vendor search is an undercutters dream. They can find the lowest price in the galaxy in just a few minutes and undercut it.
So lets break down the competitive advantages hard working crafters/merchants have lost due to vendor search.
-Prime location - almost meaningless
-Well stocked vendors - Still good for biz, but if the customer is looking for 1 item they can find it on any vendor in the universe, and they won't care what else you offer.
-Evaluating the competition. To set your prices and stock competitivly used to be a time consuming process, now anyone can do it in minutes.
-Vendor listed on planet map - almost meaningless
Suggested changes.
1. Remove the feature.
2. Move the feature to master merchant
3. Institute a heavy charge based on items listed. Discounts given at higher merchant skill levels.
4. give master merchants mobile, temporary vendors placable in NPC and player cities.
The vendor search was the BEST that that ever happened to this game, from a non crafters standpoint. No longerr would i spend hours and hours running from planet to planet, from strip mall to strip mall to find that great weapon for a great price, only to see it for half the price i paid on another mechant later.
No longer would certain players hold a monopoly on armor or weapons because of convienance, now the CUSTOMER was free to browse the open market.
VIVA LA MERCHANT REVOLUTION !!!
ah nvm it's pointless
Message Edited by Andymantium on 06-14-2005 09:42 AM
Jhess wrote:
The vendor search was the BEST that that ever happened to this game, from a non crafters standpoint. No longerr would i spend hours and hours running from planet to planet, from strip mall to strip mall to find that great weapon for a great price, only to see it for half the price i paid on another mechant later.
This needs to be stressed.
More customers who are happier because they're finding the stuff they want means more customers. Ultimately that translates into more profit for all merchants.
Givingconsumers more and better productinformation (which is what we got when vendor items became visible on Bazaar terminals) is the honest merchant's best marketing tool.
--Flatfingers