Merchant Archive

---

DingoBoi wrote:

really need to laugh at you buying 200k of resource there, because that is just a tiny amount compared to what the big boys buy. When you get out of preschool, you might aspire to being a major player.

---

Whoa, can your ego get any bigger? Someone whose sole occupation istrading a resource is telling me to step out of preschool? Your trade is the equivalent of riding the short bus to SWG business school.

200K of wooly hide lasts a hell of a long time on the smaller servers if all you're doing with it is making composite. Certainly long enough to make it to the next spawn. Sure, I could have bought millions of units and looked at them as they sat unused in my warehouse. Not my style. I could go from 10 factories making composite to 20, and then watch armor rot on my vendors.

In short, you can eat my ass. I've established myself in my trade, I know my market, and I've got the bank balance to prove it. I'm sure you wouldn't be impressed with it (I'm well into nine figures), but for my server it's pretty damn nasty.

Message Edited by DirthNader on 08-13-2004 05:15 PM

---

DingoBoi wrote:

It's not about me buying them out. The ones I bought from were, for the most part, happy to sell at their price. I just marked it up and resold it for easy credits. Some went out of business due to not wanting to sell...others felt it wasn't the kind of operation they wanted and they moved on to other business ventures, others went out of business thruough standard attrition.

Not boasting and not bragging and I really don't have intention of doing that, but the point is, I could if I wanted to.

---

Well, I would in your position, you have built an extremelysuccessful corportation given some fairly sloppy business tools. I would love the oppurtunity to get to that level of acheivement. The fact that you could buy out other crafters and they dried up or just went out of business suggests they weren't very serious and probably wouldn't last that long away. The profit point you established for power was clearly what the market will bear, so no harm done. In fact, i would suggest that most of your customers were happy to have a reliable source they didn't have to worry about. And I agree completely that reputation is the most important thing. Happy customer,

So for the sake of argument,I'd say you are the exact 'monopolist' that SWG is trying to break up. Whether you are a true non-coercive monopoly or not, some folks whether for laziness, ignorance or lack of economic understand, you have been labeled public enemy number 1 by them. So given the position you are in I'd say you are extremely qualified to estimate whether or notthese vendor caps are going to affect your buildness.

I'll understand if you might not want to give out your business secrets, but is this going to stop from serving your customer? Are the little guys that you could crush now going to be in any better position now?

---

DingoBoi wrote:

It's not stupid. It's very smart actually. It effectively limits the ability of other crafters to procure resources and thereby limits their ability to produce quality merchandise and merchandise in volume. Destroy the competition and the customers come to you. True, you can't stop it all.. but it again comes down to reliability. If you don't have it, they will go to find someone who does.

---

You're obviously not smart enough to comprehend exactly why I said it was stupid to buy resources simply to keep them out of the hands of other crafters when you yourself are already in a situation where the demand for your product outstrips the supply you are able to produce.

If my vendors are emptied before I can restock them, what interest do I have in destroying my competition? Maybe if all I did was trade resources, like some pompous folks that come to mind, then yeah, I'd have a virtually endless ability to meet any demand. But I don't. Armorsmithing takes time.

Again, I don't want to destroy my competition, because the demand for my product already outstrips my ability to supply. From just about every armorsmith's shop I've seen on two servers (Shadowfire and Ahazi), that the norm in my trade. Driving someone else out of business is only going to increase the number of people flooding my inbox and sending tells asking when I'm going to restock.

---

DirthNader wrote:

---

Gavvot wrote:

...As I said before it's not about a pure monopoly but more about a bunch of people that can control a major part of a market.

Those people can be nice, or not, but they have the power to do it and that's the problem.

---

Please explain to me, in very specific terms, how any one or any group has any power to control any portion of the market in SWG. Not implied control, specific control, as in a direct ability to control pricing, demandm and availability in any market.

Links to specific examples would be good too.

Thanks.

---

Specific exemple :
A group of people want to control a big part of a market, let say vasarian brandy.
This group of people have unlimited money.
All they have to do is go to food shop and buy every single vasarian brandy.
As long as they can buy it, they can control the market.
To have the money needed for that, they have to sell it.
As long as they have unlimited storage on vendor, they can do that, and sell at higher price they bought.
as they are almost the only one to sell brandy, people will go to their shop to have it.

The big number of complain from this change already showed that most if not all the merchant don't like to have empty vendor, so if someone always buy all their brandy, they'll just quit.
The only other option for them is to raise their price.
As the group of people have the money, they can still buy it.
And if they stop, the number of people able to afford this brandy at the new price will be very limited.
And if the chef lower his price, well the group that want the market will just come back and buy everything.

Sure some people will still make brandy for themselves and their friend.
But overall, a vast majority of player will have to go to that shop if they want brandy.

Keep in mind buying stuff take less time than crafting it.
The buyer has the advantage.

This way, a very small group can control a big part of a specific market.

And set the price they want for brandy.

The only control mechanism in the game atm to prevent that is the ban from the shop.
Something that can be bypassed easily by having some account and simply create and delete a character again and again.

---

Gavvot wrote:

---

DirthNader wrote:

---

Gavvot wrote:

...As I said before it's not about a pure monopoly but more about a bunch of people that can control a major part of a market.

Those people can be nice, or not, but they have the power to do it and that's the problem.

---

Please explain to me, in very specific terms, how any one or any group has any power to control any portion of the market in SWG. Not implied control, specific control, as in a direct ability to control pricing, demandm and availability in any market.

Links to specific examples would be good too.

Thanks.

---

Specific exemple :
A group of people want to control a big part of a market, let say vasarian brandy.
This group of people have unlimited money. Flaw #1 - nobody has unlimited money.
All they have to do is go to food shop and buy every single vasarian brandy. Flaw #2 so they can't do this for very long. Flaw #3 - they can't *find* all of them.
As long as they can buy it, they can control the market. Flaw #4 - so they can't control the market.
To have the money needed for that, they have to sell it.
As long as they have unlimited storage on vendor, they can do that, and sell at higher price they bought.
as they are almost the only one to sell brandy, people will go to their shop to have it.

... so we're nerfing vendors because we don't think the market-driven economy that exists in SW:G can self-correct out any potential monopoly? IOW, fixing a problem that doesn't exist yet? That's retarded.

The big number of complain from this change already showed that most if not all the merchant don't like to have empty vendor, so if someone always buy all their brandy, they'll just quit. Flaw #5 - no, we don't like the elimination of one of the tools we use to satisfy our customers.
The only other option for them is to raise their price.
As the group of people have the money, they can still buy it. Back to Flaw #1 - they do NOT have unlimited money.
And if they stop, the number of people able to afford this brandy at the new price will be very limited.
And if the chef lower his price, well the group that want the market will just come back and buy everything. ... with this fictional unlimited money?

Sure some people will still make brandy for themselves and their friend.
But overall, a vast majority of player will have to go to that shop if they want brandy.

Keep in mind buying stuff take less time than crafting it.
The buyer has the advantage.

This way, a very small group can control a big part of a specific market.

And set the price they want for brandy.

The only control mechanism in the game atm to prevent that is the ban from the shop.
Something that can be bypassed easily by having some account and simply create and delete a character again and again.

---

---

joined42904 wrote:

Sigrun,

Gravvot may not have explained it well, but I understood what he was saying.

It's what folks do on my server, too.

One (suffering from a fictional condition that joined imagined) doctor (though she's quite nice) bought out the entire supply of goods produced by someone just entering the market.

Sounds like she just financed that doctor's next level of development. Yes, very nice indeed.

Maybe he was below normal price. I don't know all the details. I do know that D accused the other person (who will remain nameless only because she's nice) and she either admitted it or didn't deny it in the same thread (in which she was also posting). D got his money and continued making the items. That's all folks have to do. But it's a game and sometimes folks really don't like not having a regular type of shop.

"Regular type of shop"? Huh? He put the goods up for sale. He sold them. He got exactly the money he wanted for them. He had the funds to (presumably) make more. And he learned that maybe he underpriced a tad. Sounds all good for him so far... Business lesson & all...

The other doc did increase her market share though. Because some folks went into D's shop and found him out of the item. Well...when they next need this item...are they going back to D's shop? Or will they go to a shop where they can reliably find the item? The 5 minute starport wait time has increased the likelihood that they will go back to D's shop. But most folks value their time and hate empty vendors.

So why is it that you want the best crafters on the server to be forced into having empty vendors? Oh yeah! So the poor sclub consumers can buy worse stuff at higher prices off non-empty vendors! Yay, Joined!

It's a lot easier on a potential(imaginary beings)to just relist the items purchased if there is unlimited vendor space. If there isn't, then destruction of the item will have a real cost if it is made by the potential competitor in sufficient quantity and priced appropriately.

Makes it a lot easier on those (imaginary beings) if the noob vendor only has 50 items to buy out, too, doesn't it? Remember, those (imaginary beings) are starting with"unlimited" money here...

(The unlimited money Gavvot was referring to is what some of the elder players have due to a currently fixed exploit you are probably familiar with or have at least heard about.)

There you go makingunsubstantiated accusations again. In the real business world, that is Liebel (sp?) and you would be hearing from attourneys...

---

---

BoberFett wrote:

I thought we were talking about people with virtually unlimited funds? I'm alreadyone of thebigger players in the weapons game with plenty of money to back it up. And everyone keeps pointing out how the nerf is going to help out small crafters. I just pointed out how anyone bent on destroying newbs is going to do it anyway.

Everyone who supports this nerf seems to have differing opinions on what a monopoly is. You'd all best get together and figure it out if you're going to have any chance of winning these arguments.

---

You're mixing things.

Even if you have a big bank account, unlimited fund can only be achieved by keeping making money.
If you destroy the stuff you buy, you don't make money on them.
And so, you shoot oyur own foot.
Yes, even with this nerf, people with big bank account still can destroy small business. But that is not the best way to achieve monopoly.

As for the everybody as a different opinion on what a monopoly is :
monopoly definition – a monopoly is characterized by the power to fix prices or exclude competition, coupled with policies designed to use or preserve that power.

The subject of this thread is that monopoly don't exist in SWG.
With that definition, they do. And exemple exist on alot of server.
The situation I keep using, is LK-Tech. A shop on my server that is specialized in weapon for a long time now and started selling armor.
On the weapon business they are the best seller on the server.
With that power, and because they didn't wanted to run an economic war, they set some rules for their shop :
-no reselling at higher price
-limited increase of price per slicer
-limited number of items a customer can buy.
If you don't respect their rules, you get banned from their shop.
They did this because they didn't wanted to raise their price and they didn't wanted to restock more than they were.
As a result, they fixed the price for weapons on the server.
Because if you're a WS, even if you do better weapon than them (wich is very hard), you won't be able to put a much higher price than them. Well, you can, but you won't sell much.

Go buying small business may help to have a monopoly, but it is not required.

1. Definitions of what a Monopoly is varies greatly from player to player, ranging from (Monopolist are anyone with more money/success/influence than me) to (Absolute control over the market, excluding or making completly unprofitable further competitors).


2. Many players (I'd say the majority of new crafters) percieve that 'monopolies' are huge problem which prevents them from being successful. The split in responses on this thread can be almost 100% down the line with successful crafters say no monopolys, new crafter who haven't yet established themselves yet saying 'Yes, bring everyone down to my level'. Exceptions on both sides exist obviously.


3. Howdamaging a so called 'monopoly' is also vary. So far the only 'harm' that anybody has claimed by 'monopolies' is that they drive other players out of business. No examples or case studies have been presented showing the ability to harm actual customer through high prices.


4. The two case studies presented that of Stryker (Weaponsmith) and Dingboi (Power-Eclispse) have only demonstrated that successful business can be built. Dingboi has stated the purposed vendors caps will not affect him in anyway. Stryker isn't around to give his opinion. In anycase, these guys are the exception rather than the rule, as what they did takes an immense amount of energy, time and saavy, something most players are unable or unwilling to expend.

So the question is, given that there aren't really monopolies everywhere keeping the proletariat oppressed, what kind of affect with this nerf have? I will wager that smart business creatures (like Dingboi) will be able to continue to build their organizations and will continue their success as long as a player crafting system exists. Here's why...

The Player based economy is the best developed and only unrestrictedPvP system in game!

Unlike the GCW you don't have a choice if you want to play or not. If you are selling your goods, you are playing. Period. And its really challenging to become success. But as a wise man once said.

It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!

The vendor nerf is a misguided attempt to make it easier to be successful when starting out. Unfortunately, its only going to hurt those its intended to help. In unrestricted PvP, more experienced (in time not game XP), smarter and those will more time will almost always win.

So designers, unless you plan to remove the player economy from the game, new crafters will never be able to compete with experience players, until they get experienced. In the meantime, you hurt the rest of the player based by making goods less available and more expense.