Merchant Archive

Thread: Anti-Trust: Why in-game Monopolies are pure fiction.

Avair
Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:51 am
#1

Given the upcoming changes to the vendors and the merchant profession, as good capitialist I need to take issue with what has been stated/implied as a desire to 'break up' monopolies with SWG. First, off let me start with following premise,


A coercive monopoly cannot exist without government interferance.


What this means is that unless the government (SWG) gives advantages to certain business (players), that give them an unfair advantage against other businesses, there is no way a single company can control the market.In atruly free market, no single company can drive the price up (hence the word coercive) without making it possible for other competitors to come in and undercut them, driving the price back to the 'market' levels.


Now SWG isn't truly a free economy, as a business can only become as efficient and offer the producst that the game rules allow. But there are a number of game rules that prevent monolopies from occuring, and why having crafters whoare preceived as 'monopolists' (i.e. the rich and successful) isn't necessarily a bad thing.


1) A player cannot be 'forced' out of business. A powerful player can't 'buy out' his business. Any player would puts the time and energy into mining, crafting and running a store in a good location will be able to stay profitable. Not as profitable as but 'ubercrafter', butunless you are Bill Gates, somebody is always going to have more than you, so stop worrying.

2) Successful crafters providing top quality goods at reasonable prices improves the quality of life for all players. Nobody want to spend 2 hours a night running around only to find a crappy FWG-5 pistol and pay too much for it. The successful crafters have built name recognistion by delievering quality goods. Gimping them by making the interface more cumbersome hurts them and everybody else.

3) It's a game, and players have more money than time. Everyone can be successful, with right amount of time and energy. If you have a consistantly well stocked vendor, in agood location,charge appropriate prices, you will sell stuff. Finding a well stocked vendor even now is a rarity, and I would rather spend my time shooting stormtroopers than running around looking to save 2k on better bargin.

4) Businesses require capital to grow, and everyone can print their own money via missions. Unlike the real world, you can raise your own capital without any buisness plan by running missions. While it may feel impure to finiance a buisiness by shooting stuff, it's available.


So if we conclude that monopolies cannot exist, but are fictional concept which isaimed athurting successful crafters/merchants, why do we want to impose a nice socialist controlled economy which will hurt the majority of players? Jealousy? A easy hack to get around bad vendor interfaces?


The game already has enough unfun roadblocks for crafters, in the form of clunky vendor interfaces (i.e. since seeing more than 100 items is pain, let just cap the vendors at that), unfun inventory management (too small crates and stacks, 5 storage houses) and silly spamming in starports, which is what passes for advertising.Controlled economies always haveway of coming back to bite people despite what are 'good altuistic' intentions.


Let's instead focus on streamlining the interface to make it easy for new crafters to get started, with less cumbersome interfaces and better inventory management. The game world is big enough for everyone who 'really wants it' to be successful, lets give them the tools instead of dragging down those that have fueled the growth of the game economy so far.


P.S. For further reading, check out Ayn Rand's Capitialism: The Unknown Ideal, where our current Federal Reserve Chief, Mr. Alan Greenspan some very nice articles on Monopolies and Anti-Trust.





Avair Darkwater
CEO, Darkwater Robotics, Tarquinas Server
Droid Showroom - Coronet (407, -5606)
Corporate Headquarters, Edge of Infinity, Dantooine, (-2851, 5283)

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Anti-Trust: Why SWG monopolies are pure fiction.
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JudoKnight
Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:40 am
#2

I have said the same thing...great post.



Vin Diesel can express the root of -1 through intrepretive dance.
VarnaxDespin
Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:50 am
#3

You are correct sir.



Varnax Despin
Cafa
Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:57 am
#4

5 stars!



- Strength In Numbers - Loyal Subjects of the Empire
Asia Brothers Industries - Asia Hall SiN CiTY, Dantooine (Offers Vendor at -4703 -1404)
A player bodyguard can't protect you either, something agroes you, you are dead. The
only difference between a pet and the person, is you pay the person to stand there
and watch you die. -- Straker Atrella

jefdenbeffer
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:37 am
#5

I foresee...


This thread deleted...


Coz u outsmarted devs...




÷UCC Industriesø ï Fine Weapons, Armors and Services ð
2 Master Weaponsmiths, 2 Master Armorsmiths, 4 Merchants and 20 vendors at your service !

STAFF: Jef (Melee Design and Sales), Zhakharthas (Gun Design and Sales), Sinbary (Master AS), Gohio (Master AS)
LOCATION: Eden Central Square - Naboo 4716/5754 - 200m from Eden's Shuttleport - 900m from Kaadara's Starport - Farstar Galaxy


ElvisTheKing
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:42 am
#6

Who is John Galt?



__________________________
N Eawet Ami N
Master Bounty Hunter
NeXuS
"My gun is for hire."
__________________________

joined42904
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:45 am
#7

This guy didn't outsmart the devs at all.


I haven't heard any proponents of these changes say that a coercive monopoly exists here. To the contrary, I think you hear of oligopolies.


I have yet to hear anyone complain that they were forced out of business. You are correct that this cannot happen. But you are attacking a straw man of your own devising.


The issue is whether oligopolies will be permitted in the SWG gaming world. I support the devs' decisions that they should not be permitted.


If the average quality of goods goes down, that may not be such a bad thing. Certainly folks won't want their own goods' quality to go down. But if it does I think most people will either deal with it or find ways to help out crafters who can make the goods they desire. Example: This AS will keep me stocked if I start mining and sell goods at a low price. Same for WS. Goes double for those willing to acquire organics....


I think the reason is to allow newer crafters some method of entry into the market. And I think it will work. It will become fun rather than just a grind for folks starting crafting professions. And this is I think what was intended.


Is there a good reason why 3-4 crafters per profession SHOULD be permitted to dominate server economies? Hmmm? And all that money being sold on ebay....where does it come from? I think I know....


This is a game. The object of a game is to have fun. The most fun for the most players including hopefully the most crafters. This is to be accomplished by shooting down the means that make oligopoly possible. Kudos to the devs!!!





Issadra 12-pt Master Armorsmith, Master Merchant
NERF Armory 5103, 2008 Lost Sanctum Dantooine
Specialty Shop and Outlet in Andromeda Corellia
WILDMAN_SOLO
Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:54 am
#8

People who cry about monopolies are usually the lazy incompetent ass clowns who cant be arsed to actually work hard at making a success of their chosen profession.


Even as a small time crafter you can make more than enough profit if you are a smart and shrewd business person. Most of the moaners are probably the little babies who used a 3rd party piece of software to macro their way to master thinking it would be a cash register once they got there.


Monopolies dont exist. if they did i would never have been able to establish my business enterprise. On my server there are 3 or 4 really well known AS who move high volumes of comp/ubese/wookie every single day. I dont consider myself to be a high volume merchant but I still have enough business to keep me happy. I probably make about 3-6 million a week gross. The uber crafters probably push 3-6 million a day if not more, yet I am still in business. My business is successfull to the point of where I expanded from just having vendors in my PA hall to having a merchant tent outside coronet with one of my guildies.


The whole idea about monopolies is a crock of communist bull crap. its just an excuse bantered around by the ignorant/lazy/stupid who cant be bothered to work hard to achieve sucess. You people are the kind of people who go around believing society owes you something.


Oh and to top it off none of my crafters are 12pters and I can still make in roads to the market place. Its all about putting in the effort to mine/harvest the best resources you can get or get your PA to help. Everyone has vissions of grandeur but remember you aren't born at the top you have to work your way up there.


The item cap is just a way of enforcing a communist policy to help the lazy and incompetent get on level terms with the hard working and shrewd because they dont want to make an effort to suceed. You people make me sick.



=Upde Harris= 12pt Master Weaponsmith and smuggler of Chimaera server - Voted 20th Best WS on the server !!! WOOT
Idiva Harris - 12pt Master AS and Merchant

Ancient Weapons and Hokey religions are no match for a good blaster at your side !!
Visit =Upde= Weapons Inc. in RFR Guildhall Kintha on Tatooine (2k from Mos Eisley) for all your weaponry needs.

ElvisTheKing
Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:01 am
#9


From Websters:


Main Entry: ol·i·gop·o·ly
Pronunciation: -'gä-p&-lE
Function: noun
Etymology: olig- + -poly (as in monopoly)
: a market situation in which each of a few producers affects but does not control the market
- ol·i·gop·o·lis·tic /-"gä-p&-'lis-tik/ adjective


I do not see this happening in SWG, at least on Wanderhome. I think your premise is flawed for a few reasons:


1) There is no real barrier to entry.


2) The ability to craft as well as the current masters is easily available, but it will take time to get the resources and skill tapes, just like it took time for the current masters to acquire their resources and skill tapes.


3) The existance of guilds to help their budding weaponsmith,armorsmith or whatever makes the affectof the "oligopolies" minimal.


I think it is mental gymnastics at best to assert that there are monoploies or oligopolies in SWG.


For example, on Wanderhome, we have had many great Weaponsmiths. Some have left the game, some have quit the profession. Some have gotten to the edge of greatness and decided to play with different skills. Right now we have, what I consider. a glut of great weaponsmiths all with 12 points of experimentation. No one has tried to stop them from coming up through the ranks, in fact, older Masters WS have helped the newer ones with resources and advice. Our discussion threads are littered with comments from the newer smiths to the older ones, thanking them for their help and advice.


I do not know how you perceive an oligopoly in this game. Is the glass half full?





__________________________
N Eawet Ami N
Master Bounty Hunter
NeXuS
"My gun is for hire."
__________________________

Avair
Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:11 am
#10



From Dictionary.com

ol·i·gop·o·ly
A market condition in which sellers are so few that the actions of any one of them will materially affect price and have a measurable impact on competitors.

mo·nop·o·ly



  1. Exclusive control by one group of the means of producing or selling a commodity or service: “Monopoly frequently... arises from government support or from collusive agreements among individuals” (Milton Friedman).

Idisagree with thesecondary part of that monopoly definition (as well as with Mr. Friedman on a few issues), but have left it in for thoroughness. If attacking monopoly's is a strawman, then its one that developers have put up. I refer to this thread, http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=18573, where Thunderheart says...




Currently, there is no limit to how many items can be placed on a vendor.This causes technical issues, encourages monopolies and actually hurts sales in many instances because most players don't "drill down" through all of the vendor pages to find items.We want to solve the technical issues, discourage monopolies and make vendors easier to use.




For the sake of argument, the question is whether a few top level crafters/merchant truly affect the price of things? Crafter's are limited by what they can sell and how efficient they can become due to game rules. In real life, Non-coercive monopolies can exist, if a company can become so efficient that nobody can match their efficiencys. But because of game rules, after reaching a certain point of efficiency,the only way to become more profitable is to raise prices. And a non-coercive (i.e. non-government protected) monopoly has no power to raise prices past what the market will bear.


I can understand its tough to new crafter's to break in, but I think the majority of failed crafter don't put as much energy into the game as they need to be succesful.Cottage industrys (non-master and new master crafters) will never be able compete with Industrial crafters (with factories, employees,etc), until they can get to that stage themselves.Let's look at ways to make business easier to start (easier interface, useful non-master goods), rather thancreating production/sales caps (which is what vendor limits essentially are).




Avair Darkwater
CEO, Darkwater Robotics, Tarquinas Server
Droid Showroom - Coronet (407, -5606)
Corporate Headquarters, Edge of Infinity, Dantooine, (-2851, 5283)

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Anti-Trust: Why SWG monopolies are pure fiction.
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VarnaxDespin
Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:36 am
#11







joined42904 wrote:


Is there a good reason why 3-4 crafters per profession SHOULD be permitted to dominate server economies? Hmmm? And all that money being sold on ebay....where does it come from? I think I know....




I have yet to see any server where 3-4 crafters dominate the economy... In dec I started AS with 3mil cr I had saved in the previous 6 months... I had no extra points and there were at least 10 otehr big AS I was going to be competing against.. I worked.. gathered reosurces and put in my time... when I quit 6 months later I had established myself as one of hte better AS on the server.


In the same time I personally knew at least 20 other players try AS..... at least 5-10 of those "made it" even though they started with very little like me. The ones that didnt make it were ones that complained it took to much time and energy and they couldnt do anything but craft, not because "joeblow" was to big and powerful. Now that is my experience. Sorry you cant be successful if you dont put in the effort.





joined42904 wrote:

This is a game. The object of a game is to have fun. The most fun for the most players including hopefully the most crafters. This is to be accomplished by shooting down the means that make oligopoly possible. Kudos to the devs!!!







I think it is the other way around... crafing and selling items wont be more fun..it will be a larger burden and players will not bother because what was once fun will have become evenmore of a time comsuming pain.





Varnax Despin
joined42904
Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:47 am
#12

Varnax,


The folks who will consider it a time consuming pain are the present oligopolists.


For those who claim there are no oligopolies,


How many top quality weaponsmiths are there on your server? Docs? Chefs?


How many of you can name more than 3-4 such folks on your servers? If you can't....how do you contest my valid claim of oligopolies?



Issadra 12-pt Master Armorsmith, Master Merchant
NERF Armory 5103, 2008 Lost Sanctum Dantooine
Specialty Shop and Outlet in Andromeda Corellia
Avair
Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:58 am
#13







The folks who will consider it a time consuming pain are the present oligopolists.


For those who claim there are no oligopolies,


How many top quality weaponsmiths are there on your server? Docs? Chefs?





You are confusing successful with the ablility to control or greatly affect prices. There are successful businesses (crafter/merchants) on every server, but they don't have the power to control the prices of items. All business-creatures (men/woman/wookies) want to super successful, a few have the requiste business smarts to do it. To eliminate the top end crafter through collectivist means (ok, pal, we have decided that you are successful enough, you are cut off) is to eliminate the dream of where the other crafters want to get to.

No amount of top end controls on the economy are going to convert a poor business-creature into a succesful one. They will only drive successful ones away (to World of Warcraft, for example). I believe SWG has the created one of the bestmultiplayer economic simulations ever (whether intentional or not), and to aspire to make a controlled socialisteconomy is sadden at worst, and tragic at best.



Avair Darkwater
CEO, Darkwater Robotics, Tarquinas Server
Droid Showroom - Coronet (407, -5606)
Corporate Headquarters, Edge of Infinity, Dantooine, (-2851, 5283)

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Anti-Trust: Why SWG monopolies are pure fiction.
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