Medic Archive
Thread: When using Inorganic for Stims, is it better to have a resource with no PE?
Most of the inorganic resources have no PE on them. Does this mean that that stat won't count in the equation and it will be 100% on OQ, or will it mean that the PE score is 0.. making it better to find something with PE in it, heh?
This has been forwarded to the devs, and they are looking into it.
Yet another weird issue with crafting...
-T
On live right now they do not get counted as zero. Can't speak about test center myself though. Here is the data off live:
Stim B - unexperimented all same resources (factory made components) except for inorg variable. Organic resource is 900 OQ 725 PE.
inorg1 - 477 OQ 203 PE yields a 286 power stim B
inorg2 - 331 OQ 347 UT (no PE) yields a 288 power stim B
Would have been nicer to have the OQs the same, but close as I could get. It still clearly illustrates that currently the lack of a stat simply lets other resources use their stats. In the case of inorg1 the low PE averaged with the high PE of the organic used and brought total average PE down. Inorg2 on the other hand left the total average PE high because it did not have anything to contribute, thus the final combine is actually more powerful despite its more than 100 point drop in OQ.
The best way to make stims is to find a high OQ and high PE organic, then match it with a high OQ high UT inorganic.
Also Traigus, I know there was a huge thread on this topic before and you're probably already doing this, but please tell the devs not to make the change to count the stat as 0. It will be a severe blow to making advanced components such as BEC'swhere the requiredorganic does not have UTor delivery shells, where the required inorganic does not have a PE. Also it will hurt final combines by forcing people to pick high PE inorg sacrificing the charges in a final combine to get max power. All in all it will amount to a "nerf" in that new medicals will not be as good as old medicals even if this is the intended way for the system to work.
It does indeed seem to be broken, and needs to be fixed (may have nasty effects on other parts of crafting)... But heals seem to be on target for dev intent (since we haven't been nerfed to hell before this).
I think the bigger problem is that there are no materials that have both PE and UT. I'd be willing to factor in a zero (for being lazy and using bad materials), if we didn't ALWAYS have to factor in 2 zeros.
If/when this ever gets fixed, I'd expect them to do a pass on materials, and schematics to make sure things were actually craftable.
People are always complaining that crafting is buggy, I'm glad they are willing to look into it (though I am afraid of what they might find lol).
-T
Isn't this the way it works? Or is it supposed to work differently?
A total list seems to be made for all materials
1 2 3
UT 800 000 700
PE 156 200 000
OQ 367 800 568
then the 66% and 33% are taken from there.
This is not true of components, which migrate stuff like power and charges directly. So components can use materials that the final combine cannot... otherwise the missing number = a 0.
Right now the 0 is not counted as 0... nobody seems to know what it IS actually counted as, but it is not 0.
If it gets fixed, then we need to ahve our shematics changed to use different qualities, or have said qualities added to materials, so at least SOME materials will be able to have all 33 qualities we need. A 0 is ok, if we have to choice (it is the same as choosing to use a 145 material).. Right now though, there are no materials in game that have UT AND PE. So this can't be a fast fix (at least for us... I dunno if anyone else has this problem off of the top of my head, with 0's).
-T
I have seen other posts by weaponsmiths (and possibly others, armorsmiths?) in the same boat as we are. They also have advanced components with strict resource specific requirements and have complained of missing attributes. So we're not alone on that issue if it comes to a fight with the dev's.
Also as to what the 0 equals at this point, to the best of my abilities it seems to be as if the resource is not in the calculation. ie you have a 800 PE organic and an inorg without PE you have 800 PE for the final combine, no average since only one resource contains it. However if you had a 800 PE organic and a 600 PE inorg (say petrochem fuel) then you get 700 PE final combine, average of the two. While the subcomponents make no difference what resources were used, just their final value of power and/or charges value is considered, which never averages with PE or UT of the final 2 raw resources. Again this is just from my personal tests, and may not necessarily be true, but I have tried to test this out (live servers only).
Lyrn (formerly of MedWorld)
Scylla
Yeah, it's just not used at all. The way it seems to work is that if you have a 0 for both resources,that part of the equation is averaged out to 0. If both resources have the stat they are averaged (not added, so ensureing you have 2 PE resources doesn't add up to a better power, necessarly, because they average out, not add up.) If 1 resources has a state and the other does not have the state the one that doesn't have the stat is just ignored. It's treated as a null value.
The reason this is good for us is that, as mentioned, there is no combinatoion of Organic and Inorganic that has both a PE and a UT rating. So let's say you have 2 resouces. Let's assume OQ is 1000 for all of these calculations to make it easy. (Please note that it is possible to reverse these in that there are some Orgnics with a UT rating, but no PE, and some Inorganics with a PE rating, but no UT rating.)
Org: PE=1000, UT=0
Inorg: UT=1000, PE=0
How the final ratings are determined for how it works now:
- Power=(.66*1000)+(.33*1000)=1000
- Charges=(.66*1000)+(.33*1000)=1000
How it would work if they were really 0s:
- Power=(.66*1000)+[.33*(1000+0/2)]=825
- Charges=(.66*1000)+[.33*(1000+0/2)]=825
Now if you tried to kick things up a bit with some Organic and an Inorgainc that both had PE ratings (we'll use 1000 again for ease), thinking you would greatly improve the power, here's what happens instead:
- Power=(.66*1000)+[.33*(1000+1000/2)]=1000
- Charges=(.66*1000)+(.33*(0+0/2)]=660
So what you actually get is the same power as if you use an Inorganic with no PE rating, but a lot less charges being figured out from that final Charge rating.
Zarlor wrote:
The reason this is good for us is that, as mentioned, there is no combinatoion of Organic and Inorganic that has both a PE and a UT rating.
This isn't strictly true. Leathery Hide has a UT rating, but no PE. Some Unknown Radioactives have a PE rating but no UT. Both have an OQ rating, of course.
IF the lack of arating means it is excluded from the equation, then all you have to do is find a Leathery Hide with High OQ and UT, and a Radioactive with high OQ and PE to make some really good stims.
Has anyone else tried this out? I recently did a run with these and ended up with 445/29s. The caveat here though was that I didn't have aBECs or aCDRMs (just aLS 112). Now that I've finally collected the materials for them, though, I'll craft a few of those and see what I get.
Actually read that again. It is strictly true. There is no combination of Org and Inorg that will have BOTH PE and UT ratings. You can get an org with UT OR PE or an Inorg with UT OR PE, but youwill never find an Inorg with both UT AND PE or Or with both UT AND PE.
And yes I thought I had also mentioned that it is entirely possible to use an Organic with a UT rating acceptably well with an Inorganic with a UT rating. That works just fine and is reccomended in cases where you have a Radoiactive or Ptero Fule with a Higher OQ/PE combo than any of the POrganics you might have. In that case you'd look for a UT-rated Organic such as hide, bone or wood. Works perfectly. 
Zarlor wrote:
Actually read that again. It is strictly true. There is no combination of Org and Inorg that will have BOTH PE and UT ratings. You can get an org with UT OR PE or an Inorg with UT OR PE, but youwill never find an Inorg with both UT AND PE or Or with both UT AND PE.
Ah, I was thinking of the crafting session itself having "both" rather than the individual resources themselves. My misinterpretation. And you did go on in the next sentence to clarify on the reversal thing, but I didn't understandwhat you meant by "reversal"until now.
For those looking for a good example on Starsider, try to get a hold of Enselae (Leathery Hide) and Eupit (Radioactive). Enselae has OQ 900+, not-so-great UT, but Eupit has OQ and PE 900+.