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Thread: Deep Space PVP observations and Damage Reduction Test.
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Tsumitsuki
Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:10 am
#1
A couple of months ago I posted in a thread that was denouncing damage reduction in space combat. I tried to reason why it would actually not be a bad thing but was shouted down in a big way and accused of being a newbie and not thinking things through. Then I realised that this was something I could test myself and in fact already had done without realising it on several occasions.
I am now an experienced master pilot with a LOT of deep space PVP under my belt and I have done specific research into Damaged Reduced PVP
First of all, any master pilot that tells you "one-shot" doesn't happen that often, hasn't PVP'ed that often. It happens a lot. If its not a single shot then its a single pass. If fact can remember very fewpvp fights where I needed to (or was able to) turn and fire after the first head on pass. This is realistic but not conducive to huge ammounts of fun (it IS fun, but not nearly as much as it could be).
What usually happens in a deep space PVP fight is this - you enter deep space, space is big so you fly around for 3 or four minutes constantly clicking your key or stick button bound to "/targetNearestEnemyPlayer" or whatever the actuall command is. With luck you here a beep as your target switches to say "JonDoe" in his Z-Wing (used to be an X-wing but he crashed it lots) Jon is doing exactly the same thing as you so at 3km out you are both aware of each other and can see the little red box. You now fly directly at each other, sometimes you might jog side to side but more often than not that just makes you an easy target for a broad side. There is now a 30 second wait while you close in to firing range. As soon as that green cross appears you are on the trigger (if not before) and the blaster bolts fly. At this point the winner is usually one of these people
1) the person that was on target because the other is a hopless shot
2) the person that hit the trigger first
3) the person whose guns do the most DPS (Damage Per Second)
4) the person who started firing before the green cross appeared and whos gun timing got them closest to the max effective range of their guns.
5) nobody, one ship survived the other exploded but the survivor is so badly crippled they have to hyper out or eject anyway, this happens a lot too.
6) the third person who was watching these two go head to head and pops the winner of the original joust because the target nearest enemy continues to target
the exploded ship until it fully despawns.
for the loser and often the winner too the journey continues with a loading screen followed by starting droid programs an 8k trip (about) to the deep space station and another load screen.
on a 10 second droid interface the program times are:
Reactor Overload 3 50 seconds
Weapon Capacitor overload 3 25 seconds
Engine Overload 3 50 seconds
Weapons Overload 3 50 seconds
usually a pilot will have all these running before entering deep space so thats about a 3 minute turn around in normal space followed but the usual (lets be generous) 2 minutes in deep space , so a total turn around of 5:30 seconds on average between bouts of PVP which last (when you get in range ) between 1 and 3 seconds.
There is _some_ skill involved in this but not a lot (even so the fact that the player has control over whether you hit or not makes it infinitely superior to ground PVP(JMO 
)).
)).Right then On to my testing.. This simulated the typical PVP fight were we start at around 1.5km appart to save time and make a single pass at each other.
both ships were using the 2443 reward shields with similar armour, engines do not come into play in this scenario as its a pure "joust" running is pointless because theres nowhere to hide.
1st test -
both ships running the normal compliment of guns and programs that we would choose to use in PVP
not sure what my opponents layout was but it didnt matter as the results were as expected 50/50 wins on one-shots and single passes. Only 3 runs were done because of the turn around time.
2nd test -
My ship had 4 identical crafted guns doing 1.4k -2.8k damage at 0.48 vs shields and armour with 0.34 refire rate. this means that each gun does ((1400+2800)/2*0.48)/0.34 = 2960 (nearest 10) Damage Per Second (DPS) before overcharge - I loaned one of these guns to my opponent and removed all but 1 from my ship. We jousted using single guns and overcharge 3. Again over multiple jousts we were getting single pass kills, 2 or 3 hits tore through shields and armour and rendered opposing players crippled or exploded. Again the surviving ship although mobile in many cases was in a non combat viable condition and had to hyper out for repairs anyway.
3rd test -
same configuration on weapons (single gun) but this time no overcharge program. several passes again most of the time single pass kills but on 2 occasions it was necessary to turn and finish the opponent off (this is where engines and player skill finally come into play properly) In these instances ships were stillbadly damaged in the first pass.
I was able to shield trick one time only before the duel was over, with a 10speed droid interface there is a 10 second turn around before you can do it again, andduring that time you have limited firingcapability (not too bad tho with only 1 gun) and in 10 seconds my cap would not recharge fullyusing overcharge3so being able to use it again would still not fully replenish my shields, this explodes the myth that Cap-shield shunt 4 will make you invulnerable in DR PVP space combat - it most certainly will not. My opponent was able to turn and fire destroying me easily in 2 more hits.. maybe 3
On the otherduel where both ships survived the first pass I tried to shield trick but my droid interface had been destroyed. I was then able to get the upper hand by turning and finding a firing solution to destroy my opponents ship. I suspect that his engines had been damaged and certainly his weapon had as he mentioned it afterwards.
Other non specific duels:
At pilot 1111 I dueled (and lost) a tie fighter who was 1211 and had better engines than mine. However the combat lasted for several hits and involved twisting and turning around the tatooine space station. it was FUN.
As Master Pilot, myself and a friend dueled using the rebel space station as cover. it took several seconds of maneuvering to get position on each other, both of us scored partial hits (when a gun is split into 2 wide appart emitters its possible to hit with the left and not the right thus doing less damage) before I finally got the upper hand and scored a more direct hit. I did however missjudge the ammount of damage I had actually done (against friends I try not to explode them) and his ship was not crippled and he exploded me when I turned my back (I wont make that mistake again) even so the entire duel lasted little more than 15 seconds and again shield trick did not help enough to keep me alive even against a badly damaged Xwing with only 1 gun left (my own fault admittedly I should have made surekilled him when I had the chance but it still proves my point)
As Master Pilot, I was happily crunching my way through the Imperial Star Destroyer when a Tie Aggressor Complete with gunner came to join the party. My rear shields were hit and I lost my rear armour and 1 weapon (I suspect this was a light gun on the turret for mass reasons) however I was able to turn and use the ISD itself as cover while I shield tricked and then managed to get that golden position above and behind the aggressor which then died in 2 hits ( at 0.34 refire rate thats 0.68 seconds remember) thankfully the gunner was able to turn and hit a movnig target from a fast moving aggressor. I then proceeded to finish the ISD. The same Tie Aggressor came back for another go and I managed to pull the same trick again but this time I spotted him first and was able to take cover and gain superior position before he could get a shot on me. At this point due to furthe damage from the ISD itself I called it a day and left it alone for that session 
.
.So, I firmly believe that Damage Reduction in space PVP combat will NOT unbalance it at all, shield trick will most definately NOT be a ticket to invulnerability and all that it will do is increase the ammount of time it takes to knock a ship down allowing for the twisty turny dogfighting which is what nearly every master pilot I have spoken to has said they would like to do. Some people have suggested that it would prevent non masters from taking part in PVP but to them I have the following things to say:
1) no it wont - they dont stand a chance against higher tiers anyway and against each other they would still have equal chance..
2) most non masters dont pvp anyway because they cant get in deep space for the no decay repairs and dont want to gank their ships
3) most non masters dont pvp anyway because its hugely difficult to tell if that dunelizard is a 1222 pilot or a 2111 pilot or a 2223 pilot or a 3333 pilot etc. at master level you can be confident that your equipment is at least in the same ballpark.
So here are my thought through and tested suggestions for improving PVP combat in space.
Drastically reduce damage - if you dont agree with me you can test this yourself. Go up against a friend with the best shields you can get (reward sheilds ideally everyone gets them) fit a low damage (I suggest level 2) cannon and no overcharge and see how much more fun it is (as long as a dead head PVPer with full load out doesnt come along during your test and pop the pair of you). If you prefer being able to win purely on firepower and hitpoints then I suggest you stick to the ground pvp because thats exactly how it works there.
More obstacles in deep space - anything that can be used to break the line of fire is going to be a good thing skilled pilots using asteroids / constructs to take cover _WILL_ be able to stay alive a lot longer, and thats what we want really, thats the way it should be.. as it is if 2 teams of 10 people went up against each other only 1 person would most likely come out on top. if you can decide your taking too much damage and then break for cover thats a good thing. It only adds to the value of the kill if someone manages to get you. at the moment a space PVP win is mostly meaningless.. it means only that they didnt spot you comming or that you were lucky. (most of the time)
A huge asteroid field in deep space with open channels for the cap ships (corvetttes and gunboats) to navigate through would be much better, the fighters can break off and engage in the field.. although the AI _IS_ pretty dumb and doesnt cope well with rocks.. but this would make the PVP a lot more interesting, even if there was (grudgingly) no damage reduction.
Finally and this I think is THE main problem with deep space and the most fixable:
when you add it up thereseasily a 5 minute turn around time for getting back into combat in deep space.
An immediate improvement here would be:
- Respawn at the entry point to deep space for your faction.
- Droid programs will still be up and running on respawn after death
- If you survive combat but are damaged and you are still mobile you can repair at the ISD or reb station.
With these 3 things alone I would be content with no DR as I can get straight back in the fight for another go. This works really really well.. Evidence http://www.subpsacehq.com download continuum (its free) and play in the trenchwars arena. Very sorry for the outside Link and promoting another product but I think its a valid point and you have somehting to learn from this game.
So thats my rant / non rant done. I am quite sure that I have thought things through and come up with some very valid points.
Attacca
Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:31 am
#2
Nicely written. As another idea, is there really any reason the overcharge programs need to have a time delay? They're not really something you change in combat, and a three minute wait everytime I go flying is obnoxious.
Ramona_Garcia
Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:43 am
#3
I pvp quite often, both in deep space as well as in organised large scale battle, and again - if you manage to one shopt someone then he either was a bad pilot who did not react fast enough, or flew straight instead of dodging, you got lucky, or he had weak shields or armor.
I fly a TIE Interceptor, and I rarely get one-shotted. On the contrary, I see A-Wings survive against half a dozen imperial pilots for minutes, taking multiple shots, but regenerating with cap to shield several times between those hits.
Again, anyone arguing for damage reduction, please duel a good pilot in an awing or advanced, and try to kill him with a level 4 weapon while both of you are using cap to shield 4.
Tsumitsuki
Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:44 am
#4
You are quite right there.. for the overcharges a time delay is pointless or at least you should be able to run them all straight away but it takes the 25/50 seconds for them to come into full effect . so you hit the button for engine overcharge 3 and over the next 50 seconds your ship gets faster.
for the shield adjusts and shunts and anything thats used to improve your ships condition in combat the time delay is appropriate.
although perhaps the adjust could be faster as you still have to charge the "gap" up before its any good and you instantly lose from the front - maybe it should adjust and reinforce and keep the time delay. OR adjust and recharge over time but have a quicker turn around on adjusting forward or back
Tsumitsuki
Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:11 am
#5
Hi Ramona, I belive it was your thread against DR that I posted in before.
You say level 4 weapon? thats only 1.5k damage before overcharge.. only 1 gun? thats Damage reduction and you are using it already. This still makes my point DR = More Dogfight = what people want.
You may have a point with the A-Wing its advantage is the vervy very high maneuverability but quite frankly on the servers I play on I see very few Awing pilots but even so thats just 1 ship (and its counterpart) which are the exceptions not the norm. The norm is multiple level 7 guns. My Krayt - 3 main guns:
2.6-3.9 @0.62 vs shields and armour and 0.4 RR= 6.27k average dps
2 x 1.4-2.8 @ 0.48 vs shields and armour with 0.34 RR = 5.93k average dps
Total:12.2 K effective average damage per second.
1 seconds worth of fire is easily clocked up even on a chance shot if that doesnt one-shot you then your crippled 2 of my guns are crafted and my big main isnt even RE'd so Im not carrying anything spectacular.
My shields are the reward shields 2443.. with front shield adjust heavy I get a forward shield of around 4.9k together with 800 armour on the front and I STILL did not survive a single pass agianst a tie oppressor.. which I think was a one-shot too.. So conclusion? shields and armour currnetly count for virtually NOTHING most of the time. the load out of the majority of PVP ships will tear through you like you were naked. I get one-shotted all the time. in fact nearly every time I die its a one shot (or as I say if not a one shot then 1 seconds worth of fire or less still does the trick)
Dodging might be possible in an Awing or Advanced or whatever but in many of the heavier ships it just leaves you open for a broadside.. I somtimes dodge I sometimes fly straight. In the instances where I have actually managed to dogfight I come out on top most of the time so I dont think Im a bad pilot or a poor shot.
You didnt mention anything about my other observations, so you come accros as fixated on the anti-DR no matter what. I put it to you to try PVP in heavier ships with and without DR like I have. I am also working on RE components for my Lizard.. 85k mass good maneuverability.. I think I can get my reward sheilds RE'd down to 26k mass so they will fit with some good level 10 engines.. I'll let you know.. but again this is going to be an exceptional ship and not the norm. You have a point, but you are far from convincing, especially now I have the experience of a lot of DS PVP combatin person.
Ramona_Garcia
Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:22 am
#6
I pvp regularily. We have organised events on Starsider which put 20 to 40 fighters against each other each Saturday. I see TIE Advanceds, A-Wings, TIE Interceptors, X-Wings and Opporessor mostly. Krayts are seldom seen in pvp on Starsider, so I do not consider those heavy ships the norm at all. Even so, they are easier to hit as well, so they have a trade off - a big trade off in most fights.
Again, try dogfighting a good A-Wing, TIE Advanced or TIE Interceptor pilot. The aces we have on our server are very hard to hit, and the current tactic to deal with them is to fire missiles at them.
Last tuesday I had a pvp encounter in Deep Space, 2 FS, 1 Advanced and Interceptor vs 2 A-Wings, and it took a long time to down one of the nimble A-Wings, even with the firepower of a Firespray with re'd 5K guns. Hitting was the trouble.
Once you see an A-Wing fly and evade fire of half a dozen imperial pvp ships for minutes you may change your tune.
Ramona_Garcia
Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:23 am
#7
Oh, yes - we rarely have head-on engagements, we usually manage to evade fire and start dogfighting in one on ones, or 2 on 2s. Don't know anyone on Starsider who actually flies head-on against anyone.
Imaridril
Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:00 pm
#8
Before we decide weather or not there needs to be more damage reduction, Weapon Overload 3 and all the Capacitor Overloads need to be fixed. Right now, because WO3 and all of the Cap Overloads don't draw any extra reactor power, everyone runs them with zero consequence. The result being that everyone is doing significantly more damage per shot than they should be able to, plus they're able to diliver that damage continuously, since their capacitor never runs out.
For serious PvPers out there, the standard droid program routine is EO4, WO3, and CO4. There is no variation. If you're not running those three programs, then you're handicapping yourself for no good reason. There needs to be some sort of trade-off. If WO3 and the Capacitor Overloads were fixed, players would have to be more choosy about what they ran. A lot of players would choose to switch to WO2 instead, and those that stayed with WO3 might have to drop to EO3, and they wouldn't be able to "spray and pray" as much since their shots would drain their capacitor rather quickly.
The other issue that a lot of people aren't aware of is that Weapon Overload also effects missiles. On Starsider, as of late, missiles have started to become the dominant PvP weapon. If I'm in a two tube or three tube missile boat, such as a KSE or an Oppressor, and my missile launchers are loaded, I will gladly take on any a-wing pilot one-on-one.Even if I know my opponent will be using countermeasures, I don't really care. Getting a missile lock at close range is not hard, and if you fire missiles at close range, your opponent's chance of using CMs on all the missiles is next to impossible. Two Image Rec II missile hits will take out the majority of player a-wings. Even one hit is enough to criple a lot of players. Its gotten to the point where in a lot of dogfights I'll intentionally stick to only guns, just to give the other guy a sporting chance.
Ducimus
Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:17 pm
#9
I'd post some scathing rebuttle, however, all responders to this thread thus far has mirrored my own thoughts and concerns. Thergo ill spare myself the effort from retyping what has already been said. 
Needless to say, i dont want to play a game where you're pointlessly *trying* to hammer on some guys shelds all damn day. only you wont, because no one will fly still long enough for you to do so.
Needless to say, i dont want to play a game where you're pointlessly *trying* to hammer on some guys shelds all damn day. only you wont, because no one will fly still long enough for you to do so.
Tsumitsuki
Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:57 pm
#10
Ill be Imperial Pilot Ace on Starsider too very soon, Im currently in a tie interceptor and Im impressed with its speed and handling. Yes my research is heavy fighter based at the moment as thats all anyone (except imps because they dont have any) flies on my main server. Its all Krayts Xwings Bwings and Oppressors.. oppressors seem to fold if you so much as look at them funny tho they often pack a heavy punch (the one that one shotted me).
One on one's are all Ive ever seen.. Ive NEVER seen more than 2 opposition within selectable distance of me at any time.On that score Im slighly jealous. Im doing my best to get as many people into PVP on my server by stamping on every player I see in deep space with extreme prejudice sometimes I lose most times I win.. most times its a one shot with my 3 heavy guns.
sometimes I lose most times I win.. most times its a one shot with my 3 heavy guns.I didnt make the above up.. I really was running front shield adjust heavy on the 2443 reward shields and had 600 (ish) front armour and a single bolt from that tie Oppressor (1 gun) exploded me. HOW? in that case are Awings / Advanceds surviing multiple shots? My only guess is that you are concentrating on defence and getting the reward shields REd to as low a mass as possible and running low mass low damage guns to get in a fast droid interface.. even on a 10 speed DI thats still a 10 second turn around on shield shunt4 and if you do use it 10 seconds later your cap most likely is not going to be fully recharged.. mine never is and it has a 42 recharge rate with total energy of 850. Im not saying I dont believe what Im reading.. I just dont understand it.
So what if an A-wing can dodge and run forever against an advanced or another awing if the the damage were reduced?... thats what the heavier fighters are for.. even with DR thats 3 guns (4 if you have a turret), hit it once and shunt or no shunt he's going down.
BesidesI feel its right that 2 comparable ships with 2 competent and similarly skilled pilots should find it hard to get the upper hand on each other.. thats perfect, that is when it becomes a game of wits because sooner or later one of you is going to get frustrated and try something differnt and most likely make a fatal mistake.
Also what did you think of my other suggestions about reducing the turn around for getting back intodeep space (note: I say I could live with damage as it is if I can get back to the fun faster) and for obstacles to provide cover??
Tsumitsuki
Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:07 pm
#11
Ducimus wrote:
I'd post some scathing rebuttle, however, all responders to this thread thus far has mirrored my own thoughts and concerns. Thergo ill spare myself the effort from retyping what has already been said.
Needless to say, i dont want to play a game where you're pointlessly *trying* to hammer on some guys shelds all damn day. only you wont, because no one will fly still long enough for you to do so.
Yes, thanks for that, I think. One thing I detest when trying to hold a discussion is people being scathing. It server no purpose except to cause anger and is the lowest form of arguing.
The point of my section on the damage reduction is that I really dont think damage reduction would lead to "pointlessly *trying* to hammer on some guys sheilds all damn day". Ive even give you the method to try it. I dont have the cash or the right skills to equip every fighter in the game myself so feel free to do your own version of my test and post honest results here. It can only benefit us all if you do.
Tsumitsuki
Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:50 pm
#12
Imaridril wrote:
Before we decide weather or not there needs to be more damage reduction, Weapon Overload 3 and all the Capacitor Overloads need to be fixed. Right now, because WO3 and all of the Cap Overloads don't draw any extra reactor power, everyone runs them with zero consequence. The result being that everyone is doing significantly more damage per shot than they should be able to, plus they're able to diliver that damage continuously, since their capacitor never runs out.
For serious PvPers out there, the standard droid program routine is EO4, WO3, and CO4. There is no variation. If you're not running those three programs, then you're handicapping yourself for no good reason. There needs to be some sort of trade-off. If WO3 and the Capacitor Overloads were fixed, players would have to be more choosy about what they ran. A lot of players would choose to switch to WO2 instead, and those that stayed with WO3 might have to drop to EO3, and they wouldn't be able to "spray and pray" as much since their shots would drain their capacitor rather quickly.
The other issue that a lot of people aren't aware of is that Weapon Overload also effects missiles. On Starsider, as of late, missiles have started to become the dominant PvP weapon. If I'm in a two tube or three tube missile boat, such as a KSE or an Oppressor, and my missile launchers are loaded, I will gladly take on any a-wing pilot one-on-one.Even if I know my opponent will be using countermeasures, I don't really care. Getting a missile lock at close range is not hard, and if you fire missiles at close range, your opponent's chance of using CMs on all the missiles is next to impossible. Two Image Rec II missile hits will take out the majority of player a-wings. Even one hit is enough to criple a lot of players. Its gotten to the point where in a lot of dogfights I'll intentionally stick to only guns, just to give the other guy a sporting chance.
WO3 certainly does make a difference.. I have noticed that when I use overcharge 3 the energy cost per shot on my guns is doubled. I will try running weapon overcharge 3 and engine overcharge 3 without first starting reactor overload 3 and see if it disables my equipment (I think I does because I did that once and it disabled my droid interface so I couldnt do anything else :/ ) I certainly cant fire forever.. my cap does run out sure it takes longer but if it didnt then there'd be no point in using it thats using WO3 CO3 and EO3 no 4 programs used here.. Ive been trying to find an equipment combo that will let me use EO4 and CO4without leaving me underpowered at the moment Ive had to lose my turrent gun to get the reactor drain down.
Overload works on missiles? thats dirty.. I never use missiles myself except on my YT because my krayt doesnt have the room.. Ive never PVP'd in my YT because ive never had a full crew or at least 4 crew.. 3 yes.. not 4
This is to a different poster, sorry I cant remember who but SOE wont let me see the whole thread when Im replying.
Ive a feeling EO4 and CO4 together are possible on the lighter fighters because you dont have anywhere near the same reactor loading as the heavies. So yes, ok the additional capacitor power may fully recharge the shields on a light fighter but only to the tune of about 2k total.. so if you managed the 2.4k shields then no youre not going to go from 50% to 100% CO3 bring the bar on my 800 cap to an extra 33% assuming it goes to 50% extra on WO4 a shield trick will recharge you about 1500 damage on a 1k total energy capacitor. Someone provide actual stats if you can please
So if you see an A wing shunting from 50% to 100% he probably has much weaker shields than you think, and you can be sure hes not going to do it again in the next ten seconds and if he does it soon after that hes not going to get a full replenish on the next shunt because his cap wont have recharged . Although I appreciate that overcharge on the cap also increases the recharge rate.
If he has a 10 second droid interface then hes either extremely lucky or he is spending an awful lot of mass on it. Next stage up is usually around 13 speed.. lot less mass but significantly slower on program turnaround.
TomoRainer
Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:33 pm
#13
I do like what you have to say about turnaround time. In fact, all the droid commands but Capacitor Overload are bugged in that they all take a number of seconds equal to the rate for Overload 4 commands no matter their level. If this were fixed, it would cut down on downtime for a lot of pilots. PVP is very quick for a lot of people, so if we could make it as easy as possible to get back in it, I think it'd help offset some of the frustration that goes along with getting shot down in seconds.
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