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Thread: The new AI rocks! (cross-posted in Pilot Forum)
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Aden_Nak
Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:32 am
#1
No, seriously, this is not a joke thread, or an attempt at sarcasm. The new ship AI rocks. The ships now use the sort of tactics that make sense for them. Specificly, the fast, light ships joust with you, and then boost on out of range before you can turn your guns on their relatively unarmored tails. I mean really, what do you EXPECT them to do? The whole point of a fast ship is to either hit-and-fade or to get behind you and stay there. For that matter, be glad they're not effectively tailing your ship. Yet.
Currently, I have noticed that it ramps up with Tier (the Tier 2s I fought last night were more likely to stay within weapon range than the Tier 4s), and I do think that is a good thing. Tier should be separated by more than just equipment calculations. And yes, you have to learn some new tricks and drop some old ones, but again, I see that as a good thing. The previous AI (with the exception of turrets, which are still far too accurate) was rather pathetic. Bravo for smarter MOBs. They'll keep the game interesting longer.
I say make the AI harder. Every few months or so, I mean. Keep cranking it up (as long as what changes are the tactics, and not the cheapness factor). Everyone complains that the rush to Master is too quick, and that there's nothing besides PvP to do in endgame JtL right now. Well, now the Devs have provided all of us with a new style of enemy tactics to learn and counter. Personally, I'm all for it.
That being said, I'd like to offer a few tips that I picked up last night to people having trouble with the new AI And for those of you who say that it is entirely ship dependant, I am 3/4/3/3 and flying in a Y-Wing against TIEs. If I can keep pace, certainly you speed freaks should be fine.
1 - If you are in a shield-heavy ship (or you have shield adjustment droid commands), decellerate when you joust. Literally, take your speed down to your ideal turning speed before the enemies are even in range. This will do two things. First, it will allow you to line up a few more shots during the joust. Second, it will make catching the enemies easier.
2 - Turn before the joust is done. What's one more hit, really, compared to getting on your enemy's tail? Begin your turn before the joust pass is complete, and be sure to use roll as much as you can to maximize your turning rate (by adjusting yourself so you can use Pitch and Yaw to corner).
3 - Boost is best in spurts. I begin boosting before I can even see the enemies, and use the RADAR as a guide. I do believe that the AI has begun using Boost to its benefit as well, and that's how they are getting out of range. Likely, the Imperial ships are also using the Engine Overdrive droid command (its not like the AI cares about component life). If you have a slow ship, get a Booster that offers the best top speed. In a faster ship, a longer boost time might be better.
4 - Trust the targetting computer. The more "directly behind" the enemy is, the more accurate the targetting computer becomes. In those tight spinning arcs, it was all but useless. But when trailing an enemy, looking up its exhaust, the targetting computer is much better at predicting shots. Use it while it works.
5 - Don't trust the targetting computer. You can still hit enemy ships long after they are out of the targetting computer's range, especially if you are right behind them. Just because the computer can't calculate a targetting solution doesn't mean that your guns are out-ranged. I continue firing long after the computer stops displaying a likely hit indicator, and I score hit after hit. It takes a bit of practice and skill, but you can do it.
Currently, I have noticed that it ramps up with Tier (the Tier 2s I fought last night were more likely to stay within weapon range than the Tier 4s), and I do think that is a good thing. Tier should be separated by more than just equipment calculations. And yes, you have to learn some new tricks and drop some old ones, but again, I see that as a good thing. The previous AI (with the exception of turrets, which are still far too accurate) was rather pathetic. Bravo for smarter MOBs. They'll keep the game interesting longer.
I say make the AI harder. Every few months or so, I mean. Keep cranking it up (as long as what changes are the tactics, and not the cheapness factor). Everyone complains that the rush to Master is too quick, and that there's nothing besides PvP to do in endgame JtL right now. Well, now the Devs have provided all of us with a new style of enemy tactics to learn and counter. Personally, I'm all for it.
That being said, I'd like to offer a few tips that I picked up last night to people having trouble with the new AI And for those of you who say that it is entirely ship dependant, I am 3/4/3/3 and flying in a Y-Wing against TIEs. If I can keep pace, certainly you speed freaks should be fine.
1 - If you are in a shield-heavy ship (or you have shield adjustment droid commands), decellerate when you joust. Literally, take your speed down to your ideal turning speed before the enemies are even in range. This will do two things. First, it will allow you to line up a few more shots during the joust. Second, it will make catching the enemies easier.
2 - Turn before the joust is done. What's one more hit, really, compared to getting on your enemy's tail? Begin your turn before the joust pass is complete, and be sure to use roll as much as you can to maximize your turning rate (by adjusting yourself so you can use Pitch and Yaw to corner).
3 - Boost is best in spurts. I begin boosting before I can even see the enemies, and use the RADAR as a guide. I do believe that the AI has begun using Boost to its benefit as well, and that's how they are getting out of range. Likely, the Imperial ships are also using the Engine Overdrive droid command (its not like the AI cares about component life). If you have a slow ship, get a Booster that offers the best top speed. In a faster ship, a longer boost time might be better.
4 - Trust the targetting computer. The more "directly behind" the enemy is, the more accurate the targetting computer becomes. In those tight spinning arcs, it was all but useless. But when trailing an enemy, looking up its exhaust, the targetting computer is much better at predicting shots. Use it while it works.
5 - Don't trust the targetting computer. You can still hit enemy ships long after they are out of the targetting computer's range, especially if you are right behind them. Just because the computer can't calculate a targetting solution doesn't mean that your guns are out-ranged. I continue firing long after the computer stops displaying a likely hit indicator, and I score hit after hit. It takes a bit of practice and skill, but you can do it.
MadcowwithSARS
Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:11 am
#2
My problem isnt with their tactics, its with the vamped up equipment they use. When a Tier 4 interceptor and normal TIE outrun an A-wing with a 92 speed engine there is something wrong. The AI doesnt miss, you can be 90deg perpendiculat to a fighter and they shoot down on you as you pass under them. Tail guns on ships fire like they are tied to you witha wire. they dont miss. When you have to resort to trading computer programs across factions something is wrong. Im sorry i hate the AI there was more important things to atend to then upping the ante on the AI. Like mission WP's for group members, loot equipment that is so big you wouldnt even load it on a capital ship and the pinpoint accuracy of AI guns.
Golrok
Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:44 am
#3
I kept up but had to use my afterburners.
The AI tweak was needed. Youcan't let ppl become masters off the old AI- too easy. They should have just left it PVP to master., They asked for it, they got it- AI on Nightmare Mode.
Thats cool with me. This should not be something easy to master. But now have they created a monster they'll be crying to nerf soon? I guess I should find out for myself.
atytula
Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:45 am
#4
Aden, the AI did not change at all. All that was done is they sped up the ships making it hard to keep up with them. I found an easy exploit to beat every one, it just takes longer then before 11.2.
When the ship starts the joust, turn and slow down. The AI will fly right past you and then you boost so he can't run. You shoot until you cap is empty. By this time he is out of range and you do it again. With a good booster and cap, you can very easily be full by the next joust. 3 passes and the ship is disabled.
I would prefer a BETTER AI with reasonable ship speeds. I am going to go investigate. If SW can make level 8 engines with a speed of 120, then I shouldbe able to keep up and we will be back to where we were, circling around at an AI that sucks.
Blackclaw00
Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:03 am
#5
"No, seriously, this is not a joke thread, or an attempt at sarcasm. The new ship AI rocks. The ships now use the sort of tactics that make sense for them. Specificly, the fast, light ships joust with you, and then boost on out of range before you can turn your guns on their relatively unarmored tails. I mean really, what do you EXPECT them to do? The whole point of a fast ship is to either hit-and-fade or to get behind you and stay there. For that matter, be glad they're not effectively tailing your ship. Yet."
It makes them easier to kill than ever before. As they accelerate away they do so in a straight line. If I want to, I can skip the head to head confrontation by beginning my turn around early and then shoot them in the back as they predictably try to boost away. After a while, the timing gets so predictable you start wishing you had a hand free so you could read a book or something. It's incredibly dull.
What I expect them to do is manuver themselves into position for a kill and try not to get killed in return. Charging straight at me isn't a good tactic, it's suicidal.
KaylBreinhar
Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:06 am
#6
Tier 5 A-Wings travel at a STATIC speed of 1099kph. An RE-ed L6 reward engine comes out to 95.9 speed or 958kph stock. In an Advanced, the ideal throttle setting for dogfighting is NOT 100%, it's 85%. Set it that way by typing /throttle 0.85 or making a MACRO that does this for you. Get pitch and yaw stats over 65 and you're golden to take down A-Wings.
EO3 turns the 858 85% stock speed into ~1038kph (less than the 1099 A-Wings make, but enough that you get in enough shots - 85% throttle is the MAX that can be applied with no manueverability penalty - so don't /matchspeed) plus it boosts your manueverability stats OVER the stock engine values (at the cost of 6hp on the engine).
I can turn *inside* A-Wings at .85. Once they pass me the first time, it's their last time. Additionally, if you DO get into a "joust," when you SEE the ship coming towards you, begin your upwards turn towards and INSIDE him IMMEDIATELY. Don't wait for him to pass you, start turning THEN. He'll rocket past you, you'll have his ass displayed nicely for roasting, and from then on, unless you screw up - no more jousting.
It also doesn't HURT to actually roll when they roll. They move quickly and sometimes the lead indicator doesn't sync with them correctly with as erratically as they move. If you roll to constantly keep wings-level with the target or slightly-askew, you always have the angle on him no matter which way he rolls next.
Truth be told, if you want to hate a starfighter over ALL others, go to Dant space and fight Tier 5 Droid Fighters in the asteroid belts. The way those things dance around makes the A-Wings look special in the "speshul" kind of way. A-Wings are CRAP compared to those.
EO3 turns the 858 85% stock speed into ~1038kph (less than the 1099 A-Wings make, but enough that you get in enough shots - 85% throttle is the MAX that can be applied with no manueverability penalty - so don't /matchspeed) plus it boosts your manueverability stats OVER the stock engine values (at the cost of 6hp on the engine).
I can turn *inside* A-Wings at .85. Once they pass me the first time, it's their last time. Additionally, if you DO get into a "joust," when you SEE the ship coming towards you, begin your upwards turn towards and INSIDE him IMMEDIATELY. Don't wait for him to pass you, start turning THEN. He'll rocket past you, you'll have his ass displayed nicely for roasting, and from then on, unless you screw up - no more jousting.
It also doesn't HURT to actually roll when they roll. They move quickly and sometimes the lead indicator doesn't sync with them correctly with as erratically as they move. If you roll to constantly keep wings-level with the target or slightly-askew, you always have the angle on him no matter which way he rolls next.
Truth be told, if you want to hate a starfighter over ALL others, go to Dant space and fight Tier 5 Droid Fighters in the asteroid belts. The way those things dance around makes the A-Wings look special in the "speshul" kind of way. A-Wings are CRAP compared to those.
Theu
Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:11 am
#7
Im happy with the new AI, which I'm almost positive is just a speed increase and maybe a small accuracy decrease.
For people who think this is easyer then an enemy pilot just circling around and not even firing at you... I dont know what to say, maybe your fighting low tier? I was in deep space last night with a wingman and came across a group of 9 ties they came head on and wrecked me in 1 joust (i have 2400 shields) 9 tier 5s with concentrated fire is no joke.
Previous to the AI speed boost I could have gotten them all to circle and killed em all over a period of time. Previous AI was the worst AI ive seen in a flight game of any kind. Now this isnt all that much better, but its at least a temporary fix. Whatd I really like to see is the devs put some time into the AI development, but this is much better then it was.
atytula
Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:29 pm
#8
If you read some other replies, you will see how the AI is even dumber with the new speed/ All you need to do is turn early on the joust and slow down and the NPC shoots right by. Then you boost and stay on his 6. The NPC does not maneuver so you get to empty your capactior on him with a 100% hit ratio. The only problem I have is it requires roughly 3 jousts for me which is 3 times slower then before so they are surviving more but it is not a better AI.
Theu wrote:
Im happy with the new AI, which I'm almost positive is just a speed increase and maybe a small accuracy decrease.
For people who think this is easyer then an enemy pilot just circling around and not even firing at you... I dont know what to say, maybe your fighting low tier? I was in deep space last night with a wingman and came across a group of 9 ties they came head on and wrecked me in 1 joust (i have 2400 shields) 9 tier 5s with concentrated fire is no joke.
Previous to the AI speed boost I could have gotten them all to circle and killed em all over a period of time. Previous AI was the worst AI ive seen in a flight game of any kind. Now this isnt all that much better, but its at least a temporary fix. Whatd I really like to see is the devs put some time into the AI development, but this is much better then it was.
MadcowwithSARS
Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:59 pm
#9
I agree, they turned a 3 dimentionsal environment into a 2 dimentional joust. This pattern of just changing crap is dumbfounding. If any of the development team actually sat down and played an old Star Wars space sim, they would get owned by the AI in that if the fly like you have to in this.I was partial to the tight turning furrballs in space not this stuff they call dogfighting.
Uther27
Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:12 am
#10
KaylBreinhar wrote:
... snip ...
Truth be told, if you want to hate a starfighter over ALL others, go to Dant space and fight Tier 5 Droid Fighters in the asteroid belts. The way those things dance around makes the A-Wings look special in the "speshul" kind of way. A-Wings are CRAP compared to those.
Yeah, those little buggers annoy the hell out of me. I was running a Tier 4 duty missions for theloot and they kept joining in the fun and especially seemed happy to see me when I was already engaged with other fighters.
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