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Thread: How Capitol Ships Will Work
There is a lot of rumors going around regarding a video featuring capitol shipsshown at Fan Fest. Now, I probably should have called this thread "How Capitol Ships Should Work"but I hope you'll take a few minutes to read thisconcept through 
While I definitely see the "cool factor" appeal of having player-controlled capitol ships in-game, for me it is a bit of a stretch. Capitol ship by definition are very large ships, even in RL. Most of the capital ships inSW are well-documented as requiring anywhere from several hundred to several thousand crew to operate. To be realistic, it is only when one gets down to the size of a corvette (the classification of ship size, not necessarily The Correllian Corvette) that a smaller crew size becomes somewhat believeable. Anything larger (frigate, cruiser, etc.) is simply too large to be reasonable. Also, it is very rare for the captain of a large ship to actually steer the vessel or control the throttles. This is true ona real lifeaircraft carrier just as itis in SW...remember all those technicians sitting around at consoles when Vader strangled Captain Needa? THEY were the one'sactually flying the ship. If you follow that line of logic,a player sitting at the controls would theoretcially be taking orders from someone else...kinda spoils the immersion of being in charge of the ship, right? I guess I still have too much sailor in my to overlook this.
Now, before you get all crazy on me, I offer you a solution which could allow players to "realistically" operate capital ships in-game...and have the ships presence in-game be appropriate given their scale. My idea is that the group of players who board a capitol ship would actually serve as a the Command Staff instead of being the actual crewmembers. Here is what I envision (I wish I could draw a chart to help explain some of this):
The background (so we all start on the same page):
1) Movement will be sllloooooowwww. These ships are huge, so do not expect to engage in dogfights. In fact, they will probably need toturn even slower than the SoroSuub yachts. That is the downside of having something so huge. Anyone who has seen an aircraft carrier or oil tanker in real life knows what I am talking about here.
2) Their mass will be HUGE. It will most likely take many fighters (or another capitol ship) to defeat one of these vessels.
3) They will be RARE. If a high-end starfighter or MP chassis is already expensive, then imagine what a capitol ship (hundreds of times larger) would be worth. I do not have a solution on how these ships would be purchased, fabricated,or distributed in-game...there are alreadyplenty of other threads discussing that issue. Please save your comments on this issue for one of those threads.
Now, onto the good stuff...How to make controlling the ship's realistic given trheir huge crew size:
4) Employ NPC actors as crew aboard the ship. They may not all necessarily be functional, but their presence alone could give the appearance that the ship is staffed by a large crew...helps with the immersion.
5) Instead of limiting the number of weapons on a capitol ship to 4 or 5, twist the way we look at space combat slightly....anduse the exisiting coding as a basis fora (seemingly) larger scale operation. My idea is for there to be4Fire Control Stations, each similar in function to the current gunner stations on a multi-player vessel. Visually, they would probably look more likelarge consoles thanthe currentsmall cockpit. Practically, they would offer the same limited field of view once the player takes control of the station. The control interface would have a similar targetting mechanism as the current ships, but it would be used to direct severalbatteries of weapons in coordinated fire...similar to how an X-Wing pilotcontrols four wingtip weapons at the same time...he/she doesn't fire each wingtip weapon, but his/hercommands cause the four weapons to act in unison. Essentially, all that is happening is we see four laser bolts instead of one. Fundamentally, we are still only firing once at a single point in space.
FOR EXAMPLE: A Star Destroyer may have a total of 40 turbolasers mounted onboard. The Devs place 4 Fire ControlStations(each like the gunner's station on current multiplayer ships). Each station controls a group of turbolasers. Each group of turbolasers acts just like the wingtip weapons on an X-Wing. Graphically, we see multiple weapons firing, but from a coding and control standpoint, the player is only entering one targeting/firing command.
The 40 "individual" turbolasers would be split between the 4 Fire Control Stations:
Fire Control Port - controls the group of 10 turbolasersalong the left side of the ship
Fire ControlStarboard - controls the group of 10 turbolasersalong theright side of the ship
Fire ControlTopside - controls the group of 10 turbolasers on the top of the ship
Fire ControlKeel - controls the group of 10 turbolasers on thebottom of the ship
This system allows 4 different players to play "gunner" aboard a capitol ship while still having a more realistic number of weapons AND a more realistic role in the chain of command for such a large vessel.When a gunner ata Fire ControlStation selects a target, all 10 weapons under his/her command are brought to bear against it...just like the four X-Wing wingtip weapons I discussed earlier. As damage is taken to the ship, the number of laser bolts actually seen could be reduced to reflectdamage to individual turrets within the group of 10.
Essentially, the only difference between this and the current multi-player operation is the volume of fire which is directed against a target.From a game coding standpoint, this becomes an issue of simply generating more laser graphics than actually creating more weapons. Additionally, as the ship takes damage, there are now (theoretically) 10 weapons which must be disabled before a particular gunner is "out of work". Damage works much in the same manner as it does on acurrent multi-player vessel, except thateachgunner (Fire Direction Station) is able to sustain much higher damage overall due to the higher number of weapons under it's control.This simply allows the Star Destroyer to stay in the fight for a much more appropriate length of time than a smaller vessel. Most of this is simply the addition of appropriate graphics, and does not fundamentally change the coding already used on multiplayer ships.
6) The traditional "pilot" is replaced by the Officer of the Deck. Since these ships are so large, they will be slow. As such, dogfighting and twitch skills pretty much go out the window. The player flying a capitol ship enter the flight commands (keyboard or joystick) and the ship responds. Difference? The player is not "forced" into sitting in a pilot's chair as they would be in a fighter. Instead, the "pilot ship" dialog opens by toggling a specificNPC character already seated in the helmsman seat (instead of an empty chair). The player is then allowed to fly the ship as long as they are in range of the NPC. This NPC is the helmsman...responding to the player's commands. This allows the player to stroll about the bridge, just like on a real capitol ship. When the player moves the joystick (or the appropriate keyboard key) the ship reacts (slowly, probably slower than the Sorosuub yacht)and the NPC responds with dialog like "Pulling up sir" or "Coming about sir." The interaction could be instantaneous or it could involve a more complicated process similar to dialog boxesused for fishing. Either way, the pilot still controls the ship using the same commands and basic game coding, there is simply a different (and more realistic) graphic response from the game.
7) The traditional "co-pilot" is handled much in the same way as the pilot. They are able to walk around the bridge, and all of their commands generate both an action on the ship and a reaction from an NPC character. The co-pilot controls the shields and such, just as on a current MP ship. They just do it "through" an NPC crewman. The end result is the same, it is just the graphic interface which changes somewhat.
None of these ideas fundamentally change the way ships are flown, but they do add more immersion AND realistic scale to operating a capitol ship.I have based these ideas on the way things would actually work (IRL) aboard a large ship, and tried to create a situation where a group of 8 players could operate a ship and still have the appearance of large scale operations.
Please let me know what you think of this proposal. If there are any portions that are unclear, I will do my best to explain them. Please spare me your flames, as this is simply an idea 
Message Edited by Guamarhea on 06-10-2005 02:24 PM
. I normally ignore it but since you wanted comments 
cap·i·tol
- A building or complex of buildings in which a state legislature meets.
- Capitol The building in Washington, D.C., where the Congress of the United States meets.
Usage Note: The term for a town or city that serves as a seat of government is spelled capital. The term for the building in which a legislative assembly meets is spelled capitol.
Town/city =ship. Seat of government =naval command. They're capital ships.
For the rest, I don't want to see anything bigger then the Corellian corvette in player hands. It has 8 guns. The 2 x 2 smaller guns on the bulges on the topside could be firelinked to reduce theneed for gunners to 6, add pilot and co-pilot, nice default group of 8. Fighter wing and PvP team on board to either assault other cap ships or defend their own. The immersion ideas are pretty good, but an ISD is 1600m long in a 16000m space. Before it's up to speed it'll be on the other side.
We're going to be getting Corvettes and Frigates, at the very most - and I foresee them having about 5-7 turret mounts. 40 turrets firing at once will create lag up the ass.
Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 06-10-2005 07:26 PM
KaylBreinhar wrote:
People are still thinking Capital (happy, Washell?) ships imply only cruiser and higher hulls.
Every now and thenI feel like acting like Don Quichotte, he left me a nice opening 
CommTampers wrote:
I don't think that NPC pilots are feasible. There is no un-tedious way to tell the NPCs where to pilot to. Vader could verbally communicate with the officers. We cannot verbally communicate with the NPCs. The controll that comes with captian can only be fulfilled as pilot.
Read it again. My idea is very "un-tedious", although the explanation may have been a bit verbose. As I said, you (as a player pilot) still make the same command inputs you would normally. The difference is simply the addition on an NPC reaction. You would be standing behind an set of consoles staffed by NPCs (some just decoration), much like you are seated behind a "dashboard" when flying a fighter or MP ship now. It is really just a change to the graphics. From a coding standpoint, the ship is responding directly to whatever inputs you give just as it does in the current vessels. You (the player) still have all the same abilities, windows, and controls that a pilot on a current vessel has. Instead of being seated at a control station, you "appear" to befree to move about the bridge. Since we won't be dog-fighting in ships of this size and gunnery will be handled by other players, there is really no needto place you in a "cockpit"where twitch skills are paramount. Remember, all I am really doing is changing the appearance, I am not changing the way the ship operates at all.
Also, if you have never been aboard a largeship, let me assure you that sailing one is indeed VERY tedious. We have an expression that sailing aboard a ship is "weeks of tedium punctuated my moments of pure terror." I think that everyone needs to realize and accept that capital ships in SOE sounds cool, but in order for them to "fit" properly in the scheme of things their operation will most likely be quite monotonous, especially for the pilots. Most likely, capital ships (btw, historically either spelling has been considered acceptable in nautical lore) will be moving slowly from one WP, POI, or space station to another. Any "twitch" skills will realistically only be necessary for the gunners.Imagine taking a Sorosuub yacht into a dogfight and trying to outmanuever a fighter. A capital ship will have MUCH greater mass and size, so it stands to reason that they will be even slower; virtually they will be plodding targets which rely heavily on the multiple gunners to make up for their lack of manueverability.
KaylBreinhar wrote:
People are still thinking Capital (happy, Washell?) ships imply only cruiser and higher hulls.
We're going to be getting Corvettes and Frigates, at the very most - and I foresee them having about 5-7 turret mounts. 40 turrets firing at once will create lag up the ass.
Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 06-10-2005 07:26 PM
Actually, capital ships (by convention and treaty) are vessels such as heavy cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships, and aircraft carriers. This designation is arrived at by a combination of armament and tonnage specifications and was formalized (for modern navies) just prior to WWII. By convention, corvettes, frigates, and destroyers are not capital ships. That said, the powers that bein the Star Wars realm have arbitrarily decided that a capital ship is anything over 100m, so I guess we'll have to accept corvettes as capital ships.
As far as the turrets, remember, much of what I am proposing is simply cosmetic. We would not "actually" have 10 individual guns firing on a target, with all the associated tracking and controls. There would simply be the addition ofsimple graphics which give the appearance of a high volume of fire coming from the ship. Remember my analogy to the four wingtip weapons on an X-Wing. The X-Wing incurs no additional lag than an A-Wing firing one cannon, yet the X-Wing appears to be firing four linked cannons. That is what I am striving for with my suggestions...to create a more realistic appearance without fundamentally altering the game. Also, by limiting the number of Fire Control Stations to four, theoretically we would (at most) double the lag experienced on a YT or Decimator which has two gunner stations.
Remember everybody, all of my suggestions are for cosmetic changes only. The nature and method of operating a starship would remain unchanged from a codingstandpoint. Give thesize and (lack of) manuverability, the cosmetic changes create a more appropriate immersive environment and should not contribute significantly to lag in game.
Anyone who expects to engage in heated dogfights and close-quarters manuvering would be better off sticking to some of the exisiting fighters and MP craft already in-game. I see the (possible) introduction of capital class vesels as the opportunity to conduct classic naval battles, similar to those fought by sailing ships off the coast of Europeor better yet by steam ships in the South Pacific during WWII. These battles were long, drawn out affairs. They involved large, relatively slow vessels exchanging salvos with each other, while smaller craft (fighters and escorts) did most of the higher-speed attack runs and in-and-out manuvering that make a sea battle exciting.