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Thread: A 508 day vet breaks the silence to offer some suggestions!
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MDEUK
Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:01 pm
#1
I agree apart from the Skill Points suggestion - this is an MMORPG - you are meant to rely on other players and there are meant to be specialisms - if everyone was a generalist it would undermine the game.
But I love your other ideas 
Graysaber
Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:16 pm
#2
I agree with most of what you said here. I have often thought that the guild options are far too limited. I really like your NPC city ideas. The skill point issue is a tough nut to crack. The DEVs certainly have their hands full with the combat upgrade as it is.
All in all, a good post.
amiller44
Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:27 pm
#3
Puck_Starfire wrote:
All good cept the skill points. It will NEVER happen. There are crafters in the game, and there are fighters. You can't be both. If they allowed this then it would greatly upset the game. You can't be everything and therefore self-reliant. You said you're in law school. Are you also a martial arts master, Army Ranger, doctor, and blacksmith? No? Same thing here. Keep it separate. No one is meant to be completely self-reliant. And most of us with more than one account have them because our guild or city needs a certain profession, not because we want to be self-reliant.
This is definately a tough topic and I think you could arguee either way. I am a master Doc and master TKA. Now that they nerfed the credit earning in solo groups it would be nice to dabble in a craft skill as a hobbie to make some xtra cash. I can't speak for all servers but the economy on Ahazi is whacked. I have 2.5mil credits and i am poor compared to most people I know who have 10mil plus all of the time. (sorry, I know I don't spell good)
Message Edited by amiller44 on 12-21-2004 01:34 PM
Dru_McNasty
Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:30 pm
#4
You make some good points which cannot be discounted. However, here is my run down:
1. The idea for guild tools is great, yet this is nothing that has not been asked for many times before and we continue to ask for it. Why will the DEVs not realize that city/guild managers need these tools!?
2. At this point the skill system is set in stone.As stated above it is intended so that a player can be great at one orother and have to comprimise to do both.However, WOW is allowing players to have both skills in crafting and combat.
3. Yes combat needs to be reworked and hopefully the current development of the revamp will fix that. I find it hillarious that one of the DEVs compared the combat in SWG to CS. The PvP combat between the two is radicaly different and cannot even be compared. Yes, I too have played CS since 1999 (including TFC, DOD, and all them cool mods) and to compare SWG to being as lighting fast as CS...well that must have been a marketing ploy to attract the attention of us FPS gamers. When I am in the mood for that then I go play HL2DM and CS:Source. PvP in SWG is like chess, you have to plan and think a few moves ahead. Although now with JtL, I can satisfy my desire fortwitch play here.
But to contrast between PvP of SWG and CS you have to keep in mind that there is a difference between the risk and reward of the two. In CS when I die I don't have to go to a cantina and get Battle Fatigue healed,I dont have to find a Doc and get new buffs, I don't have to spend hours and hours leveling up a character to be good in PvP. You just jump in to the fray and when you win you get a measureable feeling of gratification. When you die in CS you only lose whatever you bought that round. In SWGI am risking more becuase I have spent time to shape and mold a unique character and I have items thatwill persist in the game world on my character day after day untill they decay or are replaced. And so it is because you have all of this stuff that the DEVs made it so that we have buffs and such in order to live longer in combat. And thusI get more out of the experience and spend more time in combat. If combat in SWG was over as fast as it in CS then no one would do it, it would be horrible.
Secondly you are applying real world thought to a game mechanic. The reason why a nuna does not die from your untrained ability to use a tusken rifle is because you are not using twitch based skills to kill it. The combat in this game are all figured into an equation that is built around a statisic model. For a rough example, in this equation lets assume the Player has no skills with the Tusken Rifle:
Tusken Rifle + Player < Nuna + Nuna's % Chance to CounterAttack
Hence the player needs a modifier such as a skill or ability to overcome their side of the equation, thus
Tusken Rifle + Player + Skill Mod > Nuna + Nuna's % Chance to Counterattack
The fact that you cannot kill a wingless chicken with a projectile weapon made by grunting nomads is irrelevant. The nuna is symbolic of an obstacle that needs to be overcome. Just like in CS you need to overcome your opponent by buying better weapons and body armor and then having better twitch skills. SWG is not challenging your twitch skills to kill it nuna, it is challangeing your ability to get the stats on your side of the equation.
In sum: SWG is a game of numbers and CS is a game of twitch.
4. If anyone is still reading...I agree with you on this point, butSWG has always been a player based game. You can have a fight club with DBsin any town, someone just has to arrange it. The reason people are not in these other towns are perhaps due to a lack of content. But players can host and have events in any player city, and have seen some do that. At any rate this game is like a sand box and its up to the players to build their own castles.
5noopy
Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:54 pm
#5
I'm encouraged by the posts here, I'm glad others generally feel the same way, especially on the points that I think would be most easy to impliment, e.g. the guild tools, the combat... rethinking.
I don't mean to ever advocate that SWG sell out to fast-twitching, and I think you all saw that it wasn't me who made that cs - swg comparison. I'm glad someone mentioned that WoW has done something similar in having separate pools, I haven't played it, but I've always thought prettyhighly of Blizzard's dedication to tweaking their games and their relentless balancing,hydra in D2 aside, my godI loved that. I'm not knocking SWG here, but I will say that when there's a good idea out there, its wrong not to recognize it and incorporate it whereever possible. (for the record, I think SOE/Verant get fairly good marks on this, otherwise i wouldn't have stuck around for so long, but I'm still paying, so they shouldn't stop.)
I would think that having every single player be capable of a crafting profession without a combat detriment would actually reinforce the overall economic output of the game, instead of weaken it.. Pure speculation.
Now as to CS being twitch, well, its numbers too, I can happily point out.. just calculated much more quickly, andI for one think there is a happy medium between SWG now and CS that can and should be reached. After all, a bullet is a bullet, maybe an untrained sniper can't use the gun well, but he should still be able to get lucky every now and again, and when that happens, shouldn't the bullet still hit just as hard? (rhetorical questionI suppose... hehe)
I agree that SWG is a player game, and thats why i think that player cities are such a black eye to the game. There is no reason to be there, no reason to hang out (unless you count afk dancing... which is the puffy-puss-filled part of this particular black eye if you ask me). I'd also like to see an open air marketplace idea in the non-player cities. In any real world city you go on this whole planet (not to mention tatooine in the movies) you see open air markets, people hawking their wares. The bazaar is too impersonal, and that idea could be rethought as well, perhaps mobile-cart-stores? like a vendor on wheels perhaps, that can be deployed in the main cities in certain areas... (I should be reincarnated asa game developer in my next life).
Keep on rolling
Snoop-a-Loop
p.s. you should have read what i accidently wrote instead of "puffy puss-filled" until the language checker caught it. I'm like i didn't use that word did I??? I'm innocent I swear!
5noopy
Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:21 am
#6
Hello SWG Fans!
I've sort of compiled a list of things that I see that need improved. I'm a 500+day vet, and i've been on Corbantis with for over a year. I started in beta 3, so i've seen it all. I'd like to ask, if you agree with anything i say, or wish to add to it, please do so. I see a lot of potential, and a lot of it left unrealized in SWG.
Topic # 1 Guild Tools
------------------------------
Right now my guild, like yours, probably has about 50% of its members dormant, inactive, etc...
But we have no idea who has been dormant for how long. Please allow city admins, or everyone, to see how long it has been since each player last logged on. This will allow city admins to know the actual state of their guild.
And futher, please consider using this as a basis for allowing a city admin to move, remove, or otherwise free up city lots. I've been urban planner for New Mandalore on Naboo (corbantis) for about 7 months or so, and it is infinitely frustrating to see some dormant player's house eating up real estate and otherwise screwing up the works. I understand there should be some safeguards... warnings etc.
I'd also like to see some kind of Guild Alliance System, where, guilds may merge, either permanently or temporarily, and generally I'dd like to see as much developer-based encouagement of guild interaction. Perhaps certain bonuses where allied guilds across planets could travel directly to one another, stuff like that. Right now each guild seems very insular. Also, i'd like to see tools where guilds could merge, maybe even splinter off, just to think of them along corporate lines...
Topic # 2 Skill Points
-----------------------------
I've been lobbying for this since day one: Separate skill pools for Combat and Crafting. I'm in law school,I take out about 25,000 dollars in debt yearly, and after I'm done i'll be paying it off. I cannot and will not EVER buy a second character; I do not have the time,I do not have the money. And because of this I am left to BEG for a rational look at revamping skill points. Its as simple as this: I cannot run a successful shipwright business and still compete with others in PvP, or even come close to being able to run the DWB, or the Corvette. Just for example here is what my skill tree looks like, and what i'd like to have ideally:
What i have: TKM, Master Shipwright, Merchant 4004, Artisan 4043, Brawler 4030.
I'd like to have all the same, give or take, plus the abilityto master one type of ranged weapon.
Now, Instead of just lumping another 50 stat points in everyone's pool, (which would further increase the gap between the hybrids and the pure combats, and by extension, the haves and the have-nots) why not split the two types of skills into two pools, combat and non-combat. take artisan, medic, and entertainer+ the elite skills andlump them up. then take combat, scouting and group them. This will result in everyone being equally capable of providing a support role and a combat role, instead of the current situation where to truly be successful on both fronts one must have two characters, which i find counterproductive to fun and fair gameplay. It essentially amounts to an economic gap transferred from real life to virtual life that is just ridiculously unnecessary and shameful. /guilt-trip-over
Topic # 3 Combat
------------------------
This is going to be my least successful argument, I am sure... but here goes. Please change combat completely. Why does a rifleman NEVER see through a scope? There is one, but its never used. Combat is so artificial in SWG its amazing. I remember one of the developers (haden blackman?) right around beta 4 described the combat as counter-stikesque. I've played CS and CS:source since 1999, and you sir, have not made anything remotely close to CS.Now, I understand and agree with the argument that fast-twitch is not the style this game is going for, but that said, realism, and some amount of fast twitch will trump a 20 minute hackfest any day of the week.
For example, I should be able to take a tuskan rifle out, sight it up, and headshot a nuna with one shot, having approximately no skill whatsoever, period. Radical isn't it? firearm + humanoid = dead varmint. Simple, realistic, fun. Go for realism and make for a good experienceor go make a sandwich during group hunts like i do... Seems to me the only way to get ahead in this game is to be an amature programmer and master the art of the macro which isnot gonna have widespread appeal, and definitely not going to be combat ala Counter-Strike.
Topic # 4 Non Player Cities
--------------------------------------
These places are mostly ghost towns, please consider renting out, awarding, or otherwise making use of the buildings in these cities. Perhaps Dojos and Sparing clubs with no wounds, no DB's on premises, and bonus experience.. Shooting ranges, Special crafting occasions, guild recruitment offices, anything to make Keren look likea "bustling commerce hub" and not tombstone after a goldrush.
Snoopy Nanorunner, Captain ; Captain, Rebel Alliance
Proud Mandalorian,Citizen of Naboo, Resident of New Mandalore
p.s. Way to nerf my RSF pilot friends by disallowing them from attacking imperial ships. Now no one in my guild can help me with my rebel missions. Way to stick to a moderately unimportant sub-storyline at the sake of cooperative space combat. That said, you got the vast majority of JTL spot-on. Keep up the hard work.
Message Edited by 5noopy on 12-21-200412:42 PM
Message Edited by 5noopy on 12-21-2004 12:42 PM
Notch13
Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:34 am
#7
"Its as simple as this: I cannot run a successful shipwright business and still compete with others in PvP, or even come close to being able to run the DWB, or the Corvette."
I for one don't see a thingwrong with that. If you want to be a successful big time crafter than you have to go all out for it, same with combat. Otherwise everyone can be self sufficient and limit the already limited interaction. You can't be everything you want, that's life trade offs.
I for one don't see a thingwrong with that. If you want to be a successful big time crafter than you have to go all out for it, same with combat. Otherwise everyone can be self sufficient and limit the already limited interaction. You can't be everything you want, that's life trade offs.
jphillips1868
Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:41 am
#8
1. Guild Tools.
Excellent Ideas. I know our guild could really use this right now. We have quite a few inactives and it
2. Skill points.
I'm not sure there is a great deal of demand for this and I think it runs contrary to promoting interdepence amoung players and classes. The game needs players to rely on eachother more not less. However, if your going to do this, I suggest that you include the medic and doctor classes in the combat pool as these contribute directly to combat ability.
3. Combat.
This is an area that definitely needs improvment. However, I think the main problem that with buffs and 80% armor, players can kill 99% of the stuff in the game solo and a groups are not needed. But some realism couldn't hurt.
4. NPC Cities.
Excellent ideas here! The beautiful artwork is generally wasted.
Message Edited by jphillips1868 on 12-21-2004 04:27 PM
Puck_Starfire
Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:49 am
#9
All good cept the skill points. It will NEVER happen. There are crafters in the game, and there are fighters. You can't be both. If they allowed this then it would greatly upset the game. You can't be everything and therefore self-reliant. You said you're in law school. Are you also a martial arts master, Army Ranger, doctor, and blacksmith? No? Same thing here. Keep it separate. No one is meant to be completely self-reliant. And most of us with more than one account have them because our guild or city needs a certain profession, not because we want to be self-reliant.
5noopy
Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:53 am
#10
Gonna try to explain this again...
If I want to craft and sell items for YOU, (the guy that doesn't have any crafting, that is completely dependant on me as a crafter) then here is what I pretty much MUST have: Master-whatever + Merchant 3001 + Artisan XX43. I need the master skill because this is a master's market, I'd make crappy, unsellable products otherwise. I need Merchant 3000 for you to find me. And I need survey 3 minimum because the resource market is completely inelastic and at capacity demand. That amount of skillpoints is equivalent to Master rifleman + Ranged Support IV + Scout 4000.
I'd like to see a SWG where instead of having players all be unbalanced, they could all be more balanced; where we all could contribute to crafting in some way, and where we all would be on a more even playing field in combat.
That doesn't mean we aren't independant, by any means. In fact, i think it would make us all more dependant. I could actually contribute in a DWB hunt, and my combat friends could actually contribute in the crafting economy. as players this is win-win, I hope you can grasp what i'm trying for here.
Think of it as applying the piloting skillpoints to crafting and you might find it more appealing that way. What I'm asking for is for everyone to have the opportunity tomaster basically just onecrafting profession. (i'm talking mutually exclusive skill pools.) you'd still need to buy your droids, ships and houses from someone else as a weaponsmith. And if you were a commando TKM you'd still need a doc and a squad leader for DWB. more people more able to help out on both sides of the coin. (without dropping 80 dollars for another character)
I hope this clarifies my suggestion on part 2, I don't want you guys to lose the forest for the trees, I know this would be a tricky balancing act.
snoops
Message Edited by 5noopy on 12-21-2004 01:26 PM
Moricky
Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:51 am
#12
5noopy wrote:Hello SWG Fans!I've sort of compiled a list of things that I see that need improved. I'm a 500+day vet, and i've been on Corbantis with for over a year. I started in beta 3, so i've seen it all. I'd like to ask, if you agree with anything i say, or wish to add to it, please do so. I see a lot of potential, and a lot of it left unrealized in SWG.Topic # 1 Guild Tools------------------------------Right now my guild, like yours, probably has about 50% of its members dormant, inactive, etc...But we have no idea who has been dormant for how long. Please allow city admins, or everyone, to see how long it has been since each player last logged on. This will allow city admins to know the actual state of their guild.And futher, please consider using this as a basis for allowing a city admin to move, remove, or otherwise free up city lots. I've been urban planner for New Mandalore on Naboo (corbantis) for about 7 months or so, and it is infinitely frustrating to see some dormant player's house eating up real estate and otherwise screwing up the works. I understand there should be some safeguards... warnings etc.I'd also like to see some kind of Guild Alliance System, where, guilds may merge, either permanently or temporarily, and generally I'dd like to see as much developer-based encouagement of guild interaction. Perhaps certain bonuses where allied guilds across planets could travel directly to one another, stuff like that. Right now each guild seems very insular. Also, i'd like to see tools where guilds could merge, maybe even splinter off, just to think of them along corporate lines...Topic # 2 Skill Points-----------------------------I've been lobbying for this since day one: Separate skill pools for Combat and Crafting. I'm in law school, I take out about 25,000 dollars in debt yearly, and after I'm done i'll be paying it off. I cannot and will not EVER buy a second character; I do not have the time, I do not have the money. And because of this I am left to BEG for a rational look at revamping skill points. Its as simple as this: I cannot run a successful shipwright business and still compete with others in PvP, or even come close to being able to run the DWB, or the Corvette. Just for example here is what my skill tree looks like, and what i'd like to have ideally:What i have: TKM, Master Shipwright, Merchant 4004, Artisan 4043, Brawler 4030.I'd like to have all the same, give or take, plus the ability to master one type of ranged weapon.Now, Instead of just lumping another 50 stat points in everyone's pool, (which would further increase the gap between the hybrids and the pure combats, and by extension, the haves and the have-nots) why not split the two types of skills into two pools, combat and non-combat. take artisan, medic, and entertainer + the elite skills and lump them up. then take combat, scouting and group them. This will result in everyone being equally capable of providing a support role and a combat role, instead of the current situation where to truly be successful on both fronts one must have two characters, which i find counterproductive to fun and fair gameplay. It essentially amounts to an economic gap transferred from real life to virtual life that is just ridiculously unnecessary and shameful. /guilt-trip-overTopic # 3 Combat------------------------This is going to be my least successful argument, I am sure... but here goes. Please change combat completely. Why does a rifleman NEVER see through a scope? There is one, but its never used. Combat is so artificial in SWG its amazing. I remember one of the developers (haden blackman?) right around beta 4 described the combat as counter-stikesque. I've played CS and CS:source since 1999, and you sir, have not made anything remotely close to CS. Now, I understand and agree with the argument that fast-twitch is not the style this game is going for, but that said, realism, and some amount of fast twitch will trump a 20 minute hackfest any day of the week.For example, I should be able to take a tuskan rifle out, sight it up, and headshot a nuna with one shot, having approximately no skill whatsoever, period. Radical isn't it? firearm + humanoid = dead varmint. Simple, realistic, fun. Go for realism and make for a good experience or go make a sandwich during group hunts like i do... Seems to me the only way to get ahead in this game is to be an amature programmer and master the art of the macro which is not gonna have widespread appeal, and definitely not going to be combat ala Counter-Strike.Topic # 4 Non Player Cities--------------------------------------These places are mostly ghost towns, please consider renting out, awarding, or otherwise making use of the buildings in these cities. Perhaps Dojos and Sparing clubs with no wounds, no DB's on premises, and bonus experience.. Shooting ranges, Special crafting occasions, guild recruitment offices, anything to make Keren look like a "bustling commerce hub" and not tombstone after a goldrush.Snoopy Nanorunner, Captain ; Captain, Rebel AllianceProud Mandalorian, Citizen of Naboo, Resident of New Mandalorep.s. Way to nerf my RSF pilot friends by disallowing them from attacking imperial ships. Now no one in my guild can help me with my rebel missions. Way to stick to a moderately unimportant sub-storyline at the sake of cooperative space combat. That said, you got the vast majority of JTL spot-on. Keep up the hard work.Message Edited by 5noopy on 12-21-200412:42 PM
Message Edited by 5noopy on 12-21-2004 12:42 PM
whats to jump to lightspeedie about this? lol... surely this is core systems forum material.
no offence, i LOVE the idea for NPC cities n all... but wrong forums, you will prolly get more response for this in core systems. 
5noopy
Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:24 pm
#13
Ah, I'm sorta not the brighest bulb on the tree. Naw, actually I didn't know that forum existed.. what's it take to move it? other than a repost?
Snoops
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